Rengar's Q nerf in the 7.7 patch left the ability underpowered in the first levels.

Melkalla·Apr 19, 2017·13 votes·3,119 views

Rengar's has been visiting the patch notes various times since the rework came out, most of these nerfs/tweaks were justified, but the last nerf he got was not: "Q - Savagery DAMAGE PER STRIKE 35/55/75/95/115 ⇒ 25/45/65/85/105 (empowered damage unchanged) RATIO PER STRIKE 0.3/0.4/0.5/0.6/0.7 bonus attack damage ⇒ 0.2/0.3/0.4/0.5/0.6 bonus attack damage (empowered damage unchanged)".

After these nerf, in the firsts ranks of his Q even if you hit both parts of the ability you would still deal less DMG than a basic attack, it would make sense if these only happens when you hit only one part of the ability, NOT both... and yes i know that the empowered DMG was not changed but the whole idea of the ferocity mechanic is to give us players options, when the W was overpowered noone picked any other ability to empower, now that the Q's DMG is weaker we have to empower it most of the times, this decreases the options we players have. before the 7.7 patch rengar players had a good amount of options when it came to empowering abilities, rigth now we just don't. I think a good way to fix this is to change the way the ability's DMG is distributed, when you think of it, it makes much more sense if the second part of the ability deals more DMG than the first, i mean its a piercing attack and is harder to hit since the hit box is more narrow.

Alright i am no game designer but i gave it a try, here is just somewhat of an idea of what i want for rengar's Q:

First of all we make the Second strike of his Q a little bit more narrow (kind of like yasuo's Q) and we make it deal significantly more DMG than the first, lastly we make it's CD 1 second higher.

CD: 5;4.75;4.50;4;25;4 Seconds.
Cast time reduced by 0.15 seconds.
First strike's DMG: 15 / 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 ( + 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 % bonus attack damage) physical damage.
Second strike's DMG: 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 ( + 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 / 75 % bonus attack damage) physical damage.
Empowered Savagery’s Damage unchanged.

I know it is not perfect but i think it is a good start.

18 Comments

Asayake 5150glowApr 19, 20173 votes

I dunno man, before the nerfs Rengar was kinda just spam Q and auto and he would kill you super quickly.

It's also an auto attack reset with a very short cooldown, compared to Rivens in terms of DPS it's higher, period, as you will get 3 Q casts off with 1 second to spare in Riven's 13 second Q cooldown, and each of your Q's has 40 more damage in both hit, with the same AD ratio at lvl 1 but a much, much, better AD ratio after that. The 75% bonus AD ratio from 3 procs of Riven's passive would require 160 bonus AD to break even with the extra base damage on Rengar's Q.

Honestly putting the majority of Rengar's damage in his Q was a mistake, it removes emphasis from the auto attack reset. Yeah, he would be similar to Riven otherwise, but lets be honest, Riven is not Rengar even if Rengar's Q served as an auto attack reset + bonus damage on next auto the same way Riven's does, because Riven's is more mobility, higher cooldown with triple cast, etc.

I.e., early game your Q's power does not lie in the ability itself, think of it as an auto attack reset with 40%/60%/80%/100%/120% bonus AD + 50/90/130/170/210 bonus damage. Sure you barely need the auto afterwards if you get fed, where R+Q kills your target, but until you get fed, it's important.

MelkallaApr 19, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJl9tsWH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-19T14:22:57.035+0000)

I dunno man, before the nerfs Rengar was kinda just spam Q and auto and he would kill you super quickly.

It's also an auto attack reset with a very short cooldown, compared to Rivens in terms of DPS it's higher, period, as you will get 3 Q casts off with 1 second to spare in Riven's 13 second Q cooldown, and each of your Q's has 40 more damage in both hit, with the same AD ratio at lvl 1 but a much, much, better AD ratio after that. The 75% bonus AD ratio from 3 procs of Riven's passive would require 160 bonus AD to break even with the extra base damage on Rengar's Q.

Honestly putting the majority of Rengar's damage in his Q was a mistake, it removes emphasis from the auto attack reset. Yeah, he would be similar to Riven otherwise, but lets be honest, Riven is not Rengar even if Rengar's Q served as an auto attack reset + bonus damage on next auto the same way Riven's does, because Riven's is more mobility, higher cooldown with triple cast, etc.

I.e., early game your Q's power does not lie in the ability itself, think of it as an auto attack reset with 40%/60%/80%/100%/120% bonus AD + 50/90/130/170/210 bonus damage. Sure you barely need the auto afterwards if you get fed, where R+Q kills your target, but until you get fed, it's important.

i get what you are saying but same thing happens with Khazix kha'zix's Q, it has a low cooldown, it is an autoattack reset and it still deals more Dmg than his basic attacks on the early levels, plus it is not even a skillshot.

Asayake 5150glowApr 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

i get what you are saying but same thing happens with kha'zix's Q, it has a low cooldown, it is an autoattack reset and it still deals more Dmg than his basic attacks on the early levels, plus it is not even a skillshot.

But Kha Q isn't an auto attack reset though.

Also Kha has like 5 less base AD at lvl 1 so

TheThrillOfHuntApr 22, 20171 votes

5 less base AD but half its scaling per level. Fckin triforce Rengar nerfs with this shitty rework

Asayake 5150glowApr 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

5 less base AD but half its scaling per level. Fckin triforce Rengar nerfs with this shitty rework

But... aren't we talking about Rengar's early game?

MelkallaApr 23, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJl9tsWH,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-22T19:49:37.742+0000)

But Kha Q isn't an auto attack reset though.

Also Kha has like 5 less base AD at lvl 1 so

Oh i thought it was, my bad. But what if Rengar's Q was not an autoattack reset(like Kha's Q) or if it's CD was slighty longer(like 2 secs longer), would then the buff/change i propose be justifiable?

Asayake 5150glowApr 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Oh i thought it was, my bad. But what if Rengar's Q was not an autoattack reset(like Kha's Q) or if it's CD was slighty longer(like 2 secs longer), would then the buff/change i propose be justifiable?

Yeah, completely.

MelkallaApr 23, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJl9tsWH,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-04-23T15:14:41.273+0000)

Yeah, completely.

Alright i am no game designer but i gave it a try, here is just somewhat of an idea of what i want for Rengar rengar's Q:

First of all we make the Second strike of his Q a little bit more narrow (kind of like Yasuo yasuo's Q) and we make it deal significantly more DMG than the first, lastly we make it's CD higher by a few seconds.

CD: 6.5 seconds at all ranks.
First strike's DMG: 25;45;65;85;105 (+0.4 per bonus attack damage) physical damage.
Second strike's DMG: 50;70;90;110;130 (+0.6 per bonus attack damage) physical damage.
Ability's full base DMG: 75;115;155;195;235 (+1.0 per bonus attack damage) physical damage.

TheThrillOfHuntApr 22, 20171 votes

Kha'zix's Q isn't an auto attack reset wtf

MelkallaApr 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Kha'zix's Q isn't an auto attack reset wtf

You are right but i thought it was, my bad im sorry.

Dusk Mane RengarApr 22, 20172 votes

Honestly putting the majority of Rengar's damage in his Q was a mistake, it removes emphasis from the auto attack reset. Yeah, he would be similar to Riven otherwise, but lets be honest, Riven is not Rengar even if Rengar's Q served as an auto attack reset + bonus damage on next auto the same way Riven's does, because Riven's is more mobility, higher cooldown with triple cast, etc.

Reason why Rengar should be a DPS melee character with an AA-Enchancer and not a caster.

SirLapseApr 23, 20171 votes

But he already is melee DPS. The fact that it's an AA reset and that the base damage is low+relies on frequent cast makes him pretty much a sustained damage character in the early phases of the game, eventually transitioning to burst damage due to his ultimate.

Also, "removes emphasis on AA reset" isn't the equivalent of "removes AA resets," it just means people aren't encouraged to do it so we have the Fiora effect, where you're baited into only doing the gimmick and nothing else. Good players won't be baited but those aren't the only people touching these champions.

The old Rengar which was an AA-enhancer still used Tiamat for AA resets and still was a burst character because of how much damage was inherent to his Q. The R change to the new Rengar for the crit was done in compensation for the removal of Q interaction with his ultimate, which added 30% more AD onto itself + the bonus AD scaling. People were not using Q simply for "DPS" due it being prepped on ulti, only being gated by a really long CD.

Dusk Mane RengarApr 23, 20171 votes

But he already is melee DPS. The fact that it's an AA reset and that the base damage is low+relies on frequent cast makes him pretty much a sustained damage character in the early phases of the game, eventually transitioning to burst damage due to his ultimate.

No he isn't.

At mid game Rengar can kill somebody with a full rotation R-E-Q-W-Q.

That's NOT DPS. He is not a sustained damage character right now, he is a caster burst champion right now, yeah in early game he has DPS but it's just cause his combo doesn't kill somebody yet.

Also, "removes emphasis on AA reset" isn't the equivalent of "removes AA resets," it just means people aren't encouraged to do it so we have the Fiora effect, where you're baited into only doing the gimmick and nothing else. Good players won't be baited but those aren't the only people touching these champions.

I don't really get you what are you trying to say but i just say you actaully need AA resets at early game especially a clearing jungle.

The old Rengar which was an AA-enhancer still used Tiamat for AA resets and still was a burst character because of how much damage was inherent to his Q.

He was extremely bursty due to crit, Arpen at mid game or fed. Also Riot's being unable to balance him is the reason he had a oneshot, Rengar was NEVER supposed to oneshot he should be a DPS champion like Xin Zhao for example. He goes in, makes some damage and then gets some sustained more to finish his target.

People were not using Q simply for "DPS" due it being prepped on ulti, only being gated by a really long CD.

?? You used Q before ulti cause you would get the damage as soon as you landed, Q CD was not even high, it was around 4 seconds if i remember correctly cause the idea is that he should need at least 3 or 4 Q to kill somebody however he could do it in 1.

Again if Rengar is supposed to be a DPS champion giving him a caster skill is not the right start.

SirLapseApr 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=No Rengar NoLife,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJl9tsWH,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-23T16:28:17.982+0000)

No he isn't.

At mid game Rengar can kill somebody with a full rotation R-E-Q-W-Q.

That's NOT DPS.

DPS is damage per second. If the intensity of it increases to burst potential, that is when it turns to burst. But early game, Rengar is most certainly a DPS champion that relies on sustained damage and needs to play that way to succeed. Old Rengar was the same on that idea regardless. We're in a damage meta right now where any jungler that's ahead will begin to get those oneshot capabilities by midgame.

He was extremely bursty due to crit, Arpen at mid game or fed. Also Riot's being unable to balance him is the reason he had a oneshot, Rengar was NEVER supposed to oneshot he should be a DPS champion like Xin Zhao for example.

That wasn't how he was designed and literally every single Rengar player I've talked to has wanted him to be an assassin, not fighter. It's actually strange that you would be mentioning that, and he's quite the balancing issue for Riot because he always builds tanky but keeps the damage at assassin levels.

?? You used Q before ulti cause you would get the damage as soon as you landed, Q CD was not even high, it was around 4 seconds if i remember correctly cause the idea is that he should need at least 3 or 4 Q to kill somebody however he could do it in 1.

I was referring to ult CD (my bad), since without it you can't synergize it with your Q. But that doesn't change the fact that a triple AA via double Q + tiamat was already being done. He was just as bursty before as he is now, just has more AoE coverage and resilience due to the W change.

Dusk Mane RengarApr 23, 20171 votes

DPS is damage per second. If the intensity of it increases to burst potential, that is when it turns to burst. But early game, Rengar is most certainly a DPS champion that relies on sustained damage and needs to play that way to succeed.

By this logic any champion of the game is a Burst champion.

That wasn't how he was designed and literally every single Rengar player I've talked to has wanted him to be an assassin, not fighter. It's actually strange that you would be mentioning that, and he's quite the balancing issue for Riot because he always builds tanky but keeps the damage at assassin levels.

Riot released Rengar as a DPS Champion that kills you with AA, he was designed as mixture of Assasin and Fighter meaning that his job is to kill squishies but doing throught a mix of DPS and some initial Burst. One shot was produced, like i said before, because Riot hasn't been able to balanced him despite the multiple changes he had.

He was just as bursty before as he is now, just has more AoE coverage and resilience due to the W change.

And I think that this always was some kind of problem since Rengar was never intended to be extremely bursty like I said.

Riot goals with old Rengar is that he had to spam Q, with low cd and not an extremely high damage, use bolas to catch their preys and W to gain some durability.

In my opinion (im not a game developer take this as 100% personal) Riot should have maintained old Q and make it so it does the damage in the 2 next autos being for example 40% of the damage in the first hit and 60% on the other one. Add it a low base damage and good scaling, and im pretty sure it would achieve the goal of he goes in makes damage and then compliments that damage witho some extra more.

SirLapseApr 24, 20173 votes

I'm not going to enter semantics about damage/DPS because I've already seen that people's ideals on it are really all over the place. It could be its own discussion.

Anyway, if the real ideal of Rengar was to be a fighter at his core (which is impossible because he was designed when Riot didn't create those terms and follow them to the tee), then he wouldn't have been the "rival" of Kha'Zix specifically made to jungle. Fighters fit better in top lane and he was not designed around that.

I believe what you really want is more skill expression via Q-auto timing in a visible perspective, because Rengar before fulfilled that despite being impossible to balance in terms of a "fair way to fight him." In other words, a more complex way of utilizing the Q instead of mashing the button whenever it's off cooldown. I can get on board with that if that's what you're wanting.

I'm pretty sure that the problem lies more with his ultimate yet people declare it to be his identity, and from seeing Maokai's PBE rework, I don't really want Riot to be pigeonholing Rengar into this inflexible jungler position because the old kit was actually good at doing something. Changing Q wouldn't change the fact that if Q does damage and has the empowered reset potential, it will always have that capacity to oneshot when Rengar is ahead. ADCs don't buy armor items (we have yet to see how GA will affect assassins). The ultimate encourages you to assassinate people, so as long as it remains that way, I believe it will be his focus.