What if Aatrox's E gave armor penetration for a moment

Melkalla·Jan 3, 2020·11 votes·6,055 views

I mean his win rate is kinda low and he gets to do nothing late game against tanky compositions, while champions with similar roles like Garen or Darius get build in armor pen which allows them to stay relevant through the entire Game. So i thought that a good way to balace him out would be for his E to give armor pen for a moment. It would also make more sense out of skins like they mecha one that turns his blade green when he dashes which used to make sense because of the E's bonus Ad but since that got removed it's kinda weird

48 Comments

ZairelJan 3, 20205 votes

Yeah Bruisers can't properly function without Mixed Damaged or True Damaged, since they suffer from Adc items causing armor items too be really strong cause there used to protect from double damage autos Crits or they give them free armor pen like Darius Garen and not really on Renekton since it's too much trouble trying to get his armor pen in his kit. Or there forced to build item 3071 even then Aatrox can't really stack it as fast as other bruisers like Riven who can animation cancel auto attack or Kled which has a steroid Aatrox he can't auto attack while Q'ing making him really slow at stacking it.

MavëríckJan 3, 20204 votes

{quoted}

Yeah Bruisers can't properly function without Mixed Damaged or True Damaged, since they suffer from Adc items causing armor items too be really strong cause there used to protect from double damage autos Crits or they give them free armor pen like and not really on Renekton since it's too much trouble trying to get his armor pen in his kit. Or there forced to build even then can't really stack it as fast as other bruisers like who can animation cancel auto attack or which has a steroid he can't auto attack while Q'ing making him really slow at stacking it.

Idk why this was downvoted, Aatrox is a slow and lumbering idiot that takes way too much effort to get back a so-so performance. He's a terrible investment to play.

BestGmersJan 3, 20203 votes

I like this buff but I don't think that they are going to buff him, He gained popularity played in LCS or whatever and now he is dead, again

Xiao Suan Nai AJan 3, 20203 votes

But Aatrox is still pick/ban status in Kespa cup?

ZeyphelJan 5, 20201 votes

44% WinRate KespaCup

GreenKnightJan 3, 20203 votes

No, leave him in the gutter where he belongs.

Xiao Suan Nai AJan 3, 20204 votes

Not really when Korean pros still think Aatrox is the best top lane champion in the game. Pick/ban in Kespa cup.

GreenKnightJan 3, 20204 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xiao Suan Nai A,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AXqEJzA3,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2020-01-03T22:11:26.968+0000)

Not really when Korean pros still think Aatrox is the best top lane champion in the game. Pick/ban in Kespa cup.

Then THROW him into the gutter.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 4, 20205 votes

Cause he is strong. Especially in TEAM play.

ZeyphelJan 4, 20202 votes

Korean players are just slow to adapt to the new metas. They prefer to go with their most confident picks in previous seasons. You can reliable see this when you compare Aatrox PickRate with his WinRate. Despite having an high PickRate, his WinRate is horrible (44%) in KespaCup for example. So, the popular thought of Aatrox being top tier for pro players doesn't apply anymore. He is certainly popular and fun to play, but not worth it playing or mastering anymore. See Dopa's opinion for a clearer explanation of what I am saying.

MavëríckJan 3, 20202 votes

Riot is done with Aatrox. It's an excellent change, but it will be ignored.

ThefrostyvikingJan 3, 20202 votes

Aatrox is kinda hard just outright buff because he is already good against many ranged or melee who cant easily gapclose on him, a buff would make him broken against those and not just strong or very strong.

As for getting anti tank capabilities, to be honest i do not know what would be the best since most of them can easily bypass his Q crit zones but his E does not actually give him any damage.-

Like even if it gave him armor pen, so what? He cant hit his Q crit on tanks who engage on him so he´s stuck with auto attacks which he´s not really built to use in that way so they wont be terribly useful.

He just kinda sucks against everything that bypasses his critzones, be it tanks like maokai/ornn or Irelia or Riven or Fiora, list goes on and on.

The only think i can think off is to help his teamfighting is to let his Q crits bypass a lot of armor same as GP barrel, that way he can at least damage them in a teamfight and be useful that way even if he´s still going to be miserable in lane for the most part.

ReformedfindlayRJan 3, 20202 votes

Or revert the absolutely asinine BC pen nerfs and make it less effective on ranged champions.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 4, 20202 votes

AA doesnt need buffs or nerfs. He needs another complete Rework as it's been a total failure.

IMelchorIJan 4, 20202 votes

if you give aatrox % armor penetration, he will just build full lethality. fact.

AirKingNeoJan 4, 20202 votes

I'd rather fix his problems not give him other random stuff.

The thigh guyJan 4, 20202 votes

Found the 10000000000 person on this board who watches and believes everything hashinshin says.

boricCentaur1Jan 3, 20201 votes

I mean Aatrox is fine right now but the idea of giving him pen is good.

ThefrostyvikingJan 3, 20205 votes

{quoted}

I mean Aatrox is fine right now but the idea of giving him pen is good.

He´s pretty good against ranged but he is truly too damn awful against tanks or others who can get armor early since his healing is based off his damage.

Damage down? Healing down.

Ninja tabi+bramble? = Less damage and healing is cut twice, at which point tank with base damage kills him.'''

Does not help that most tanks can easily gapclose to avoid his crit zones either.

ZairelJan 3, 20202 votes

Yeah i feel bad rushing bramble vest and he's dead he can't heal at all since damage is down from armor means less healing plus Grevious Wounds on top of it I actually just went against Aatrox he tilted began soft inting.

ThefrostyvikingJan 4, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Yeah i feel bad rushing bramble vest and he's dead he can't heal at all since damage is down from armor means less healing plus Grevious Wounds on top of it I actually just went against Aatrox he tilted began soft inting.

Similar experience on one of my rarely well played Irelia games, got a early gank after my jungler stole enemy red and he died, took my lead (15 minions+kill) and brute forced a kill on him then i just jumped on him anytime he got near minions and he just gave up and sat under tower.

Went down like 60 CS and 4 levels due to me having a hard freeze going, his team flamed him like hell but i just kinda felt bad for him, i mean what the fuck was he supposed to do? His jungler never came around to break my freeze but he could not go near without me killing him or downing him so low that i could towerdive if he stayed.

Terrible against armor, terrible against mobility, weak against CC:.......good against those whom he can just run down with his ultimate movespeed.

Feels like the pro´s are not quite equal to the cons here.

HibekiJan 4, 20201 votes

Yes, thats kinda how weaknesses work.

Every jug loses to tanks, even ones that trade extremely well like Garen and Darius. Its a rock paper scissors.

Jugs beat skirmishers, skirmishers beat tanks, and tanks beat jugs.

ThefrostyvikingJan 4, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Yes, thats kinda how weaknesses work.

Every jug loses to tanks, even ones that trade extremely well like Garen and Darius. Its a rock paper scissors.

Juggernauts do not really lose to tanks do they? It´s more a question of tanks being better in teamfights which decides the game.

Like even if the Darius gets the Ornn to go 0.3.0 in lane that Ornn will still hit 200 armor+3000 health with a couple of fairly cheap items, then he goes into a teamfight, ADC cant kill him and he´ll stun Darius until his own kills Darius!

Jugs beat skirmishers, skirmishers beat tanks, and tanks beat jugs.

Skirmishers on average do not beat tanks, exception is Fiora.

What they do is that they splitpush forcing the tank to go to stop them which denies their main power, kits and builds built around teamfighting that is.

HibekiJan 5, 20201 votes

Akali Gangplank Fiora Jax beats Maokai Malphite Skarner Shen beats Darius Garen Nasus Aatrox

ThefrostyvikingJan 5, 20201 votes

{quoted}

beats beats

What manner of beat are we talking here?

Beat in lane? Beat as in goes on to outscale and win game if not dumpstered hard enough early?

HibekiJan 6, 20201 votes

in a vacuum, winning lane generally translates to winning game.

outside a vacuum, there are far more factors in a winning games than just a single.

They generally beat them in trades and extended encounters. Ill go more in depth.

Skirmishers generally have true damage/big damage steroids and some way of avoiding damage. All of those skirmishers listed have fat steroids and fat damage avoidance. Anyone having heavy burst damage will beat them in all trades, as they generally have more threats than they can avoid.

Tanks use durability, cc, and raw tank stats/% reduction to win their trades. All the listed tanks have some tank stat that allows them to prevent enemy damage, along with very high base attack speed. Anyone who can continue the trade after it no longer benefits a tank or avoid their key components will win against them.

Juggernauts have flat durability and burst damage with small sustained damage. All the listed ones have one tool to have small trades with as well as tools to keep going if it favors them. Anyone who can mitigate their burst damage through CC or raw tank stats will generally win trades.

ThefrostyvikingJan 6, 20201 votes

{quoted}

in a vacuum, winning lane generally translates to winning game.

Not really.

As mentioned, a strong tank like say Ornn presently can go 0,3,0 in lane and still be the reason why his team wins a fight, with just 2-3 items he grows so beefy that only a handful of champions could ever hope to deal with him anywhere near quickly enough while his fed opponent just died while stunned for or slowed for 5 seconds flat. '

Even if you as Fiora go to splitpush while he does that.....he kills off 3 outa 4 of your teammates with his ult more or less then his team as 5 run down your base and you lose.

Now even if he loses 1v1 badly in lane he still wins.

outside a vacuum, there are far more factors in a winning games than just a single.

Single one? I suppose, but some patterns are so common like the one i described above it can basically be taken as a standard.

Skirmishers generally have true damage/big damage steroids and some way of avoiding damage. All of those skirmishers listed have fat steroids and fat damage avoidance. Anyone having heavy burst damage will beat them in all trades, as they generally have more threats than they can avoid.

It does not actually take big heavy damage to beat them, you just play around it as much as possible instead.

Like engaging on Trynd when he has no fury and backing up when it starts getting high, stunlocking Jax or running away from him when he uses E etc....there are a lot of champions who can do this pretty well.

Fiora is the only one who is seriously hard to deal with in this manner since she is the one who decides the pace more than not.

Tanks use durability, cc, and raw tank stats/% reduction to win their trades. All the listed tanks have some tank stat that allows them to prevent enemy damage, along with very high base attack speed. Anyone who can continue the trade after it no longer benefits a tank or avoid their key components will win against them.

Man i´ve been playing Irelia toplane a lot recently, and my experiences are completely to the contrary.

Not too long ago i was against an Ornn whom i pretty hard dumpstered in lane to the point where he went 0,4,0 and was down 50 CS but he got a shutdown for 500 gold on my jungle and with the farm he had+2 tower plates he hit item 3047 item 3068 and item 3110 + item 3057 .

Then even after i dodged his ultimate and his charge he just sat there through all my damage and killed me with some W-AA-Q-AA rotations, so no i truly disagree, especially since he still had half his healthbar left when i dropped.

Once a tank gets going you do not just beat them by dodging their main shit, you have to get past their resistances as well and tons of melee fighters presently cannot do this, another reason why Jax and Trynda are not so great while Fiora is.

Also, almost all tanks rely on having a lot of max % HP damage, Ornn´s full combo for instance does and i shit you not, 110% or close to that of it.

Juggernauts have flat durability and burst damage with small sustained damage. All the listed ones have one tool to have small trades with as well as tools to keep going if it favors them. Anyone who can mitigate their burst damage through CC or raw tank stats will generally win trades.

....Dude what flat durability? Small sustained damage?

Are you fucking joking with me?

Darius Illaoi Garen Shyvana Nasus DrMundo Mordekaiser Flat durability? Small DPS?

And no, tanks do not actually beat these guys in a fight, what they do is stun them and run away until teamfights start, then they stunlock them until their own ADC/APC picks up the kills.

ŚhunpoJan 4, 20201 votes

Nah, he kinda sucks against ranged.

Aatrox's entire purpose atm is to win early game and transition into a mid game monster. Problem is, even one armor item ruins it all for him and he deals peanut damage for the rest of the game.

Ranged laners are a surefire way to just lose as Aatrox (unless you're mid) as top lane is completely bias towards champions who have range.

WoonStruckJan 4, 20201 votes

Look up stats. Aatrox wins against a good amount of ranged.

The only one he's negative into is Lucian, and its barely.

ŚhunpoJan 4, 20201 votes

On U.GG he only wins against Jayce, Ryze and Vlad IN LANE. He loses to Vayne, Kayle, Kennen, Quinn, Lucian, Teemo, Gnar and Tristana IN LANE.

Even if the matchups he does win he usually loses out to the ranged champs if the game goes past 15-20 minutes, so ultimately he doesn't do as well as you think, granted, he wins against the above 3 freely if the game ends before then.

Furthermore, while the 3 he does win against are some of the more threatening ranged top laners, he still loses out to a majority of ranged champs going off of stats, with the worst listed example being Teemo, who Aatrox only wins against 43%-44% of the time.

Funnily enough, most of his losing ranged matchups include ALL of the ADCs sent top lane. It's almost like ADCs need to be eradicated from top lane entirely as they're extremely unhealthy for the lane... (Also Nocturne top needs to go. It's also Aatrox's worst matchup by far going off of stats as Aatrox only wins ~35% of the time vs Nocturne)

Crescent DuskJan 4, 20201 votes

{quoted}

On U.GG he only wins against Jayce, Ryze and Vlad IN LANE. He loses to Vayne, Kayle, Kennen, Quinn, Lucian, Teemo, Gnar and Tristana IN LANE.

Even if the matchups he does win he usually loses out to the ranged champs if the game goes past 15-20 minutes, so ultimately he doesn't do as well as you think, granted, he wins against the above 3 freely if the game ends before then.

Furthermore, while the 3 he does win against are some of the more threatening ranged top laners, he still loses out to a majority of ranged champs going off of stats, with the worst listed example being Teemo, who Aatrox only wins against 43%-44% of the time.

Funnily enough, most of his losing ranged matchups include ALL of the ADCs sent top lane. It's almost like ADCs need to be eradicated from top lane entirely as they're extremely unhealthy for the lane... (Also Nocturne top needs to go. It's also Aatrox's worst matchup by far going off of stats as Aatrox only wins ~35% of the time vs Nocturne)

Nocturne is essentially another top lane Rengar cheese version. If you avoid feeding him before you rush tabis and then bramble vest, you end up stat checking him by lv6. He heavily relies on his E burst window to finish you off and then starts to lose extended trades badly to juggernauts.

With aatrox it's essentially tabis>bramble vest>steraks and that amount of burst absorption will give your ult time to turn the fight around.

It's a disgusting match up just like Rengar top and one where you feel very little agency, but that's most of league. Some 1v1's are really unfair and you have to suffer a bad early lane to make it through. I'm sure Garen is just as aggravating into Vayne or Quinn, for example. Illaoi is another example of a champ that feels totally helpless pre-6 and even then with a lot of unfavorable match ups where you rely on enemy mistakes and itemization to be able to do anything.

In the end Nocturne top is a straight up int if you don't feed him because then their team has no frontline whatsoever and nocturne is a terrible late game teamfighter, he evaporates as soon as he ults in.

Maybe this game will be more enjoyable once the burst is toned down and a single bad trade doesn't determine lane forever.

ŚhunpoJan 4, 20201 votes

Maybe this game will be more enjoyable once the burst is toned down and a single bad trade doesn't determine lane forever.

100% agree.

With aatrox it's essentially tabis>bramble vest>steraks and that amount of burst absorption will give your ult time to turn the fight around.

This though...Tabis and Bramble actually work better AGAINST Aatrox than on Aatrox, as well as Executioner's. These items crush Aatrox, and to be quite honest I think all three of them need overall adjustments, at least in terms of cost.

Crescent DuskJan 4, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Maybe this game will be more enjoyable once the burst is toned down and a single bad trade doesn't determine lane forever.

100% agree.

This though...Tabis and Bramble actually work better AGAINST Aatrox than on Aatrox, as well as Executioner's. These items crush Aatrox, and to be quite honest I think all three of them need overall adjustments, at least in terms of cost.

I disagree. Defensive items need to be stronger if anything. Aaatrox just needs to have his base hp and defenses scaled up and probably for the whole design of zone crits to be removed so his damage is standardized and instead the zones can just be a knock up and slow bonus so his damage isn't completely binary (nonexistant vs. 3 shot against a non-tank).

Would also help if they gave him back his healing through minions. I also don't get why he lost his GA. Tryndamere gets a better version of Aatrox's ult and so does Kayle but somehow his self rez was too much.

ŚhunpoJan 4, 20201 votes

There are far more defensive items than item 3047 item 3076 lmao. Buff other defensive items, or better yet remove Bramble Vest and rework Tabis.

Crescent DuskJan 4, 20201 votes

{quoted}

There are far more defensive items than lmao. Buff other defensive items, or better yet remove Bramble Vest and rework Tabis.

Or, buff aatrox and don't ruin items for no reason, considering aatrox is not the only one affected by those items.

By all means nerf tabis if you like getting auto'd for half your health by a Yasuo, Draven, Caitlyn, Jhin, or MF. Or nerf Bramble vest so Yasuo and Fiora and Renekton and Darius can heal up even more.

It's not like defensive items are supposed to defend against a particular champion at all, in the case of grievous wounds for heavy healing champs like Vladimir or Yasuo/Draven with bloodthirster, or tabis against Fiora, Yasuo, Kled, and basically every ADC ever.

It's not like ADC's need to be buffed even more by nerfing the items that directly counter the stupid healing from their bloodthirster/support heals or the brainless right click damage they can do with autos.

ŚhunpoJan 4, 20201 votes

item 3047 are just messed up in terms of balance.

By all means nerf tabis if you like getting auto'd for half your health by a Yasuo, Draven, Caitlyn, Jhin, or MF. Or nerf Bramble vest so Yasuo and Fiora and Renekton and Darius can heal up even more.

Or, buff aatrox and don't ruin items for no reason

You're contradicting yourself here.

It's not like ADC's need to be buffed even more by nerfing the items that directly counter the stupid healing from their bloodthirster/support heals or the brainless right click damage they can do with autos.

ADCs need their items nerfed.

WoonStruckJan 4, 20201 votes

Vayne: Aatrox has a 159 gold lead 402 exp lead. Kayle: Aatrox has a 692 gold lead 588 exp lead. Kennen: Aatrox has a 285 gold lead 223 exp lead. Quinn: Aatrox has a 378 gold lead 680 exp lead. Lucian: Aatrox has a **-86 gold deficit ** (omg he doesn't demolish someone) 331 exp lead (nvm). Pretty sure that's Aatrox winning lane. The gold deficit is so low even if you're using that to consider winning lane. Even at worst for Aatrox. Teemo: Aatrox has a 438 gold lead 485 exp lead. Gnar: Aatrox has a 59 gold lead 142 exp lead. Tristana: Aatrox has a 327 gold lead 999 exp lead.

He hard wins all but 2 of the match-ups, where he pretty much goes even.

Even if the matchups he does win he usually loses out to the ranged champs if the game goes past 15-20 minutes, so ultimately he doesn't do as well as you think, granted, he wins against the above 3 freely if the game ends before then.

That's because Aatrox is a terrible teamfighter and isn't a great split-pusher. He has no win condition besides being ahead.

Conversely, most ranged champions scale well into teamfights since they're ranged.

Do you want him to both hard win the match-ups and outscale? That would be absurd.

Furthermore, while the 3 he does win against are some of the more threatening ranged top laners, he still loses out to a majority of ranged champs going off of stats, with the worst listed example being Teemo, who Aatrox only wins against 43%-44% of the time.

He wins against ALL of them but 2, which he goes even against. Of those 2, he has nearly a 51% winrate vs Lucian, and a 44% winrate vs Gnar.

The only ranged laner that has a real advantage over him is Gnar. Who still loses lane to him, although barely.

Funnily enough, most of his losing ranged matchups include ALL of the ADCs sent top lane. It's almost like ADCs need to be eradicated from top lane entirely as they're extremely unhealthy for the lane...

Look at the stats again. You clearly don't know how to read the information with the conclusions you're getting to.

(Also Nocturne top needs to go. It's also Aatrox's worst matchup by far going off of stats as Aatrox only wins ~35% of the time vs Nocturne)

Aatrox losing to a champion doesn't mean they need to go.

ŚhunpoJan 4, 20201 votes

He hard wins all but 2 of the match-ups, where he pretty much goes even.

Which site are you using? I'm using U.GG and going off of matchup win rates.

Do you want him to both hard win the match-ups and outscale? That would be absurd.

Yes, yes I do...at least until late game. Right now he's purely a snowball gimmick champ that NEEDS to get ahead by mid game or he's completely useless.

Then again, that's moreso the fault of itemisation being garbage right now. ADC and mage items are incredibly cost efficient and give immense powerspikes, while bruiser and tank items are lackluster.

The only ranged laner that has a real advantage over him is Gnar.

The win rates on U.GG do not reflect this at all. He loses to waaaay more ranged champions than Gnar.

Look at the stats again. You clearly don't know how to read the information with the conclusions you're getting to.

What do you mean? I'm doing what everyone does, I look at the win rates, I look at the win rates in terms of overall game length and I draw my conclusion(s).

Aatrox losing to a champion doesn't mean they need to go.

Speaking of someone not knowing how to read information correctly, I said "It's also..." not saying that it was the primary reason for him going. Looking at Aatrox's win rates again reminded that Nocturne is an overbuffed piece of shit that is desperately in need of nerfs.

I'm just surprised that Nocturne crushes Aatrox that hard, as well as numerous other champions. The champ is nuts rn.

ThefrostyvikingJan 4, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Nah, he kinda sucks against ranged.

Aatrox's entire purpose atm is to win early game and transition into a mid game monster. Problem is, even one armor item ruins it all for him and he deals peanut damage for the rest of the game.

Ranged laners are a surefire way to just lose as Aatrox (unless you're mid) as top lane is completely bias towards champions who have range.

His best winrates in high elo are mainly against ranged like ryze/Vlad if i recall, then a few melee, surprisingly Akali as well but mainly slower melee who cant dodge him.

Support PositionJan 4, 20201 votes

Armour pen?

That would mean about 20% lifesteal nerf. For his is actually bullshit overpowered except vs range.

Oppressive even.

WoonStruckJan 4, 20201 votes

He dumps on all ranged but Lucian.

https://u.gg/lol/champions/aatrox/matchups

Support PositionJan 4, 20201 votes

Even more oppressive then. Needs to be reverted...

General Esdeath Jan 4, 20201 votes

Isn't item 3071 one of his core items?

ChaosReynJan 4, 20201 votes

If I were to make the suggestion, I'd consider putting an armor shred on his W.

Sure...it overloads it, but it rewards the zone play more, so it's more beneficial both for solo queue AND teamplay - you can duel tankier people, and it's more rewarding to throw W onto the enemy frontline to peel for your backline. The obvious cost is that it can only affect one target...but again, as one guy keeps pointing out, he's already pick/ban in Korea, and giving just straight up armor pen against all targets would probably leave him overtuned, particularly in team play. If you lock it into just whoever he catches, it's more fair and honestly more in character since the whole premise would be gruesomely murdering your target.

FSRERJan 4, 20201 votes

Instead of giving him any more damage they could simply bring back the double E. That would be a huge buff to Aatrox because it would allow him to engage and disengage at ease