Remove/nerf Ziggs' turret execution?

Glîtchy·Jul 8, 2018·10 votes·3,656 views

The reason I bring this up is because the execution is too strong due to the fact that his abilities don't cost a large amount of mana once he hits 6, plus many mid laners can't stay forever thus they HAVE to back down to recharge mana (thanks for removing mana potions, Rito), and his satchel can destroy turrets at like 25-30% HP remaining, seriously, people complain about Yorick and Nasus Turret damage? what about Ziggs being able to actually EXECUTE a turret?

23 Comments

OtterlyLostJul 8, 20183 votes

I mean, they probably should remove it just because every AP champ gets damage to turrets now for no good reason, meaning he isn't needed to be the siege mage.

GlîtchyJul 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I mean, they probably should remove it just because every AP champ gets damage to turrets now for no good reason, meaning he isn't needed to be the siege mage.

I agree, I mean if mages can now deal NOTABLE damage to turrets, why give an execute to a mage who specializes in destruction of turrets even without the execution?

LocatedEagle232Jul 8, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I agree, I mean if mages can now deal NOTABLE damage to turrets, why give an execute to a mage who specializes in destruction of turrets even without the execution?

Let's make every mage exactly the same then and then we wont even have to complain about ziggs.

OtterlyLostJul 8, 20185 votes

I mean they ready did by allowing them all to basically do Ziggs job. Hell, they've gone a long way to homogenizing all characters by allowing mages to do marksmen's jobs. Remember when marksmen existed to be a late game power threat and to take objectives? Well theres no late game and every champion can now take towers equally. Why take a marksmen.

LocatedEagle232Jul 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean they ready did by allowing them all to basically do Ziggs job. Hell, they've gone a long way to homogenizing all characters by allowing mages to do marksmen's jobs. Remember when marksmen existed to be a late game power threat and to take objectives? Well theres no late game and every champion can now take towers equally. Why take a marksmen.

Ziggs job is the same as any mage...

Deal burst damage, push towers, occasionally CC/deal AoE damage.

Marksman are actually more for consistent damage. Like... Ziggs can output say 3000 damage with his entire kit (let's assume he has like 6 rabbadons and the guy steps on all his bombs... I don't know why.) edit: these numbers are hypothetical, he can deal more probably... and his Q is very short cooldown but it is a skillshot meaning less consistent than selecting a target (ADC)

So now, after he has dealt his 3k damage, he is completely vulnerable while the ADC is dealing maybe 800 to 1000 damage per second with no limit except their lifespan.

Some ADC's have strange influxes of damage: Draven, Ezreal, Varus, Jhin, Lucian, MF.... I could obviously continue, but they all have long range, high damage and consistent damage to output in teamfights.

LocatedEagle232Jul 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I mean, they probably should remove it just because every AP champ gets damage to turrets now for no good reason, meaning he isn't needed to be the siege mage.

Every champion gets damage to turrets... So they can break nexus.

Firstly, mages are made to siege, secondly, it is just supposed to be a staple of the champion. It is something cool to make him unique like Lissandra's ultimate or Cassiopeia's ultimate (and lack of legs).

OtterlyLostJul 8, 20184 votes

No, mages are made to poke, provide utility, and to wave clear. Their position in siege comps are a position of wave clear, poke, utility, and, occasionally, disengage. You'd have some kind of AD champion to actually clear the tower and the only exception to that was Ziggs. So they have inherently muddied and removed his own special and unique role in the game by giving mages tower damage along with their wave clear, poke, utility, and disengage. They also have made marksmen as a class redundant and pointless which is another issue. I feel they never should have given mages extra damage on turrets.

LocatedEagle232Jul 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No, mages are made to poke, provide utility, and to wave clear. Their position in siege comps are a position of wave clear, poke, utility, and, occasionally, disengage. You'd have some kind of AD champion to actually clear the tower and the only exception to that was Ziggs. So they have inherently muddied and removed his own special and unique role in the game by giving mages tower damage along with their wave clear, poke, utility, and disengage. They also have made marksmen as a class redundant and pointless which is another issue. I feel they never should have given mages extra damage on turrets.

I disagree... I once asked why champions go in their specific lane, and someone told me :

Top needs to be able to farm and teleport to help teams (usually tanky/fighter).

Middle's objective is to take tower as quickly as possible because middle is the shortest lane (so most important). This is done by picking a mage who can clear minions quickly/kill, or an assassin that can kill quickly and hopefully push tower.

Then ADC/Support need to prepare for late-game

Jungle farms and collects gold/wards and controls objectives while helping laners

OtterlyLostJul 8, 20183 votes

Yes, the purpose of midlane is to take the tower first; that's why it has protection on it in the first 7 minutes of the game that prevent it from taking tons of damage and the bot turret doesn't. Clearly your logic is flawless here.

The point of midlane, as the shortest and most central lane had always been to either provide a good roaming option for champions or to be short and safe enough for immobile mages to farm without leaving a tower's range too far, giving them time to scale. At no point did it have anything to do with taking tower first; it's the hardest lane to take tower in first usually specifically because many champions in it have huge amounts of wave clear and because it's the easiest lane for multiple members of the enemy team to respond to, unlike top or bot which are harder. Being centralized means that midlane is an equadistance from both top, bot and jungle, leaving your team capable of quickly responding to a push in it from nearly every direction while if they were to push bot, mid is the only lane that will likely be able to respond; if jungle is top side then they're not an option, and top can only respond with TP. The same is said for top lane, only worse because support and marksmen dont take TP.

So I guess my question is in what universe is mid the easiest turret to take? For that matter, I think the side lane turrets consistently fall first more often over the mid turret.

LocatedEagle232Jul 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yes, the purpose of midlane is to take the tower first; that's why it has protection on it in the first 7 minutes of the game that prevent it from taking tons of damage and the bot turret doesn't. Clearly your logic is flawless here.

The point of midlane, as the shortest and most central lane had always been to either provide a good roaming option for champions or to be short and safe enough for immobile mages to farm without leaving a tower's range too far, giving them time to scale. At no point did it have anything to do with taking tower first; it's the hardest lane to take tower in first usually specifically because many champions in it have huge amounts of wave clear and because it's the easiest lane for multiple members of the enemy team to respond to, unlike top or bot which are harder. Being centralized means that midlane is an equadistance from both top, bot and jungle, leaving your team capable of quickly responding to a push in it from nearly every direction while if they were to push bot, mid is the only lane that will likely be able to respond; if jungle is top side then they're not an option, and top can only respond with TP. The same is said for top lane, only worse because support and marksmen dont take TP.

So I guess my question is in what universe is mid the easiest turret to take? For that matter, I think the side lane turrets consistently fall first more often over the mid turret.

Actually no... I've been playing for a while, since before the patch was implemented that added the 7 minute tower protection and you're not exactly understanding.

Even with the 7 minute protection, mages still thrive, not because they are immobile and need time to scale, but because they can push the wave.

In ranked games I usually take mid tower first playing other champions, like Veigar or Zed.

While playing Veigar, I just farm. I've done this top lane. Just stack Q. By the time I back and buy items (just mana), I come back and have twice the AP of the enemy laner and I probably only bought item 3070 or item 3802 ...

Anyway, Azir is fantastic (not right now tho... stupid meta...) for mid because he can push waves AND poke AND strangely enough, output consistent damage in fights with less burst than most mages.

My point is, YEAH, Middle Tower is a huge objective. Not as important as first tower, but if lanes are even, it can and should be the first tower taken.

OtterlyLostJul 8, 20183 votes

I never said it wasnt an important objective just that it wouldn't be the first one people get and does not prove your claim that mages should do tons of damage to turrets because that's their "job." I debunked all of that several times.

My Waifu VanillaJul 8, 20185 votes

AP has converted to turret damage for like 6 years. All they did was buff the ratio.

OtterlyLostJul 8, 20181 votes

I'm aware of that. I feel like they shouldn't have buffed the ratio; part of why towers feel weak is because the keep giving a every class of champion some way of sieging them. Its also part of why ADCs feel unimportant or necessary to the game anymore; they no longer have niche or purpose. Even tanks with demolish can take down a turret and this probably while tanking it.

AimléssJul 8, 20183 votes

Wow, are we really trying to nerf Ziggs now... Has it really gotten that bad?

GlîtchyJul 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Wow, are we really trying to nerf Ziggs now... Has it really gotten that bad?

only the execution part, I mean last thing we need is turrets that SUCK ASS to be worse than that rn,because the execution to turrets just makes this meta a bitch to deal with, I've seen live streams where people get owned by Ziggs + Yi/Kindred duo

Colton147Jul 8, 20183 votes

Ziggs is trash and is badly in need of buffs to be made viable. (Level 7 Ziggs )

52% win rate: http://na.op.gg/champion/ziggs/statistics/mid

He needs a much better win rate.

GlîtchyJul 8, 20183 votes

{quoted}

is trash and is badly in need of buffs to be made viable. (Level 7 )

52% win rate: http://na.op.gg/champion/ziggs/statistics/mid

He needs a much better win rate.

52% is actually pretty good considering the meta's in favor of lethality rn.

LocatedEagle232Jul 8, 20182 votes

His execute is weak and if he gets a turret to 20%, the enemy laner wouldve had to be mashing their abilities on rift scuttle cuz Ziggs is mana hungry as well. He needs Q to push lane... It's more useful for a quick stop bot lane where you ult the laners and push tower and before enemy jungler can respond, tower is GONE

FireDrizzleJul 8, 20182 votes

it needs to execute towers at 95% hp, towers are too strong.

LocatedEagle232Jul 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

it needs to execute towers at 95% hp, towers are too strong.

25% - 35%

CppLJul 8, 20181 votes

What about diana? the bitch in mid game almost 4 shots the turet...

My Waifu VanillaJul 8, 20181 votes

The execute is RARELY relevant though. If the turret gets that low he is killing it in 2 auto attacks anyway. Most of the time it is better off not executing it just so you don't blow your almost 20 second cooldown escape maybe saving 1 second on killing the turret. Ziggs specializes in seiging. It's basically all his kit is good for outside of generic AoE damage EVERY OTHER MAGE brings. Ziggs doesn't bring the hard CC other mages have so he needs something to make him a unique pick otherwise he would only be picked if his damage was higher than another champion in his class since his turret taking is the only thing that is "uniquely" Ziggs.

Riddle me this. If we remove all of the turret interactions from Ziggs kit. Why would I EVER pick him if Xerath does more damage? Not saying that he does currently or whatever, but why would I pick him? Both are AoE poke based mages. If Xerath were to do like 10% more damage than Ziggs why would I ever pick ZIggs when Ziggs has the STRICTLY worse kit despite the damage loss. Xerath's main ability is easier to land and he also has innate mana sustain and hard CC. Ziggs would literally only bring damage to the table and have a SITUATIONAL tiny knockback and a "meh" slow.

MorgManBasherJul 8, 20181 votes

Amazed this got upvotes lol The champ doesn't even get played much and the w execute I very rarely use, maybe 2 or 3 times during the game. Later in the game my autos from passive tend to watch shot towers without even needing w.

Tower taking is just what ziggs does, if he didn't do this well there is literally 0 reason to pick him. High skill cap champ, Q hit box is very small and he doesn't bring much else to the table other than tower destruction besides just straight damage.