Why the hell do people want Shaco buffed?

Glîtchy·Mar 23, 2017·76 votes·4,226 views

There's literally NO NEED for one, I was against a tank Shaco just now and he still bursts like it's nothing, if anything tank Shaco should be rendered useless, no buff.

97 Comments

GULAG 4 UMar 23, 201716 votes

Well, it's the boards...

There is a certain bias towards multiple champions.

Jaygo41Mar 24, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Well, it's the boards...

There is a certain bias towards multiple champions.

Not sure why the downvote, clear favoritism toward certain champs like Sona, Janna, Orianna, etc.

"But they can't CARRY"

WyrmbladeMar 24, 20171 votes

My waifu is the pinnacle of balance and good design.

xeviMar 24, 20171 votes

Orianna is actually one the the best-designed champions in my opinion, and I don't even own her.

Jaygo41Mar 25, 20171 votes

And she's still absolutely insane as a mid laner. Almost unavoidable poke, huge utility, carry potential, support potential... The fact that she's immobile is not all that adequate since most of the mages in her class have half of that with the same immobility

KnoyleMar 24, 20174 votes

"But they can't CARRY"

"Orianna"

https://media.giphy.com/media/dC9DTdqPmRnlS/giphy.gif

FantasySniperMar 25, 20171 votes

Wait, what?

I don't think those are good examples to prove your point.

zecastarMar 23, 201714 votes

Shaco is busted. Who is asking for buffs?

ShadòwMar 25, 20172 votes

Shaco mains.. who else?

God RaijinMar 24, 201712 votes

Because if enough people whine that Shaco is weak, Then maybe they can fool Riot into not nerfing him ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

TruelyTrueTruethMar 24, 20172 votes

the realest and truest comment i have seen...

MelledoneusMar 24, 20174 votes

I honestly did not miss Shaco and hope he never again becomes the horror he was pre rework.

The EcdysiastMar 24, 20174 votes

Because Shaco mains consist of the kind of people who would mod Skyrim to make sneaking easier and deal more damage. They want to feel sneaky without having to work for it, and then also have a companion to soak up and deal extra damage.

Teriyaki BukkakeMar 24, 20173 votes

I think part of the problem is that shacos early game is pretty weak in comparison to some of the other junglers out there. He has low base damage on all of his abilities, and heavily relies on getting items or maxing out abilities to make them useful in the first place.

The thing that makes shaco so powerful as tank shaco, is his natural slow on his e plus his innate crit, so if you try to get away (which you wont) you only take more damage from him.

GlîtchyMar 24, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Meat,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MksgaYgy,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-03-24T04:45:19.293+0000)

I think part of the problem is that shacos early game is pretty weak in comparison to some of the other junglers out there. He has low base damage on all of his abilities, and heavily relies on getting items or maxing out abilities to make them useful in the first place.

The thing that makes shaco so powerful as tank shaco, is his natural slow on his e plus his innate crit, so if you try to get away (which you wont) you only take more damage from him.

His invisibility is especially a problem, it's literally the only stealth ability you can't see through at a certain radius. (he could be right next to you and you WON'T see him)

Lord MalpercioMar 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

His invisibility is especially a problem, it's literally the only stealth ability you can't see through at a certain radius. (he could be right next to you and you WON'T see him)

Please don't spread lies.

TruelyTrueTruethMar 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

His invisibility is especially a problem, it's literally the only stealth ability you can't see through at a certain radius. (he could be right next to you and you WON'T see him)

you are so dumb you are really dumb you dont have to come and confess we lookin for youuu we gon find you we gon find you

Sozan5Mar 24, 20176 votes

Akali Khazix Talon Teemo Vayne MonkeyKing

Neither of those is revealed even if you stand directly on them.

GlîtchyMar 24, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Neither of those is revealed even if you stand directly on them.

Wukong is fine, cause once he stops moving you're like, "oh, he turned invisible"

Kha'Zix is for a.brief moment

Akali can only be invisible within a small radius.

Talon's invisibility doesn't last nearly as long as Shaco's, also you know when he's invisible because of his knife/ninja star-thingies are in a circular formation, plus it's an ult, so it can be like that in my book, Shaco's isn't an ult though.

Teemo's requires him to not move or to stay in a bush

Vayne's invisibility is an ultimate, in fact 3 of them you listed have invisibility as their ult, vs. Shaco who's.basically Leblanc and Talon's love child.

[{quoted}](name=Lord Malpercio,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MksgaYgy,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2017-03-24T05:24:08.365+0000)

Please don't spread lies.

Shaco's isn't an ult and has no drawbacks like the others who don't have it as an ult,

Now here's the thing, everyone who can't be seen (besides Shaco) have some form of drawback, I listed them above.

Call Me BigPappaMar 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Wukong is fine, cause once he stops moving you're like, "oh, he turned invisible"

Kha'Zix is for a.brief moment

Akali can only be invisible within a small radius.

Talon's invisibility doesn't last nearly as long as Shaco's, also you know when he's invisible because of his knife/ninja star-thingies are in a circular formation, plus it's an ult, so it can be like that in my book, Shaco's isn't an ult though.

Teemo's requires him to not move or to stay in a bush

Vayne's invisibility is an ultimate, in fact 3 of them you listed have invisibility as their ult, vs. Shaco who's.basically Leblanc and Talon's love child.

Shaco's isn't an ult and has no drawbacks like the others who don't have it as an ult,

Now here's the thing, everyone who can't be seen (besides Shaco) have some form of drawback, I listed them above.

So you're going to ignore the fact that you straight up incorrectly stated that Shaco has the ONLY TRUE STEALTH ABILITY in the game? And then you're going to try to breakdown how Shaco's stealth is "moar op" than the other champs? Let me set this straight for you:

Shaco's Q - Deceive lasts 5 seconds at max rank. With max cdr (cooldown reduction), i believe its on a 5 or 6 second cd (cooldown). Its 10 seconds at lvl 1. He can place his W - Jack in the Box and not break invis and potentially fear an entire team for 2 seconds at max rank (.75 second fear at rank 1) and do a little to a lot of damage (the JitB can only target one opponent at a time tho) depending on your build. He can also jump walls with it/dodge skill shots and abilities as it "flashes" him towards his cursor, similar to flash, but a lower range.

Wukong's W - Decoy is.. oh idk cuz i dont play him much, but on a 8ish sec cd at max rank (with cdr i believe its at 4-6 seconds). The decoy clone and stealth last for 2ish seconds. However, his ultimate can literally knock up an entire team as well as deal significant damage to all who stay in it. So, if played correctly, Wukong's stealth is by far a greater threat. The decoy clone slows, deals a small amount of damage, and can completely confuse an enemy team, causing them to possibly waste entire ultimate abilities/summoner spells on a clone that lasts about 1.5 seconds. WUKONG'S STEALTH IS SHACO'S Q - DECEIVE AND R - HALLUCINATE'S LOVECHILD. ARE YOU EFFIN SERIOUS BRUH.

Kha,Zhix's stealth is "for a brief moment" over and over again. Kha has stealth from his R - Void Assault, but also is granted passive stealth if he chooses to evolve his R. Anytime he enters new brush, he gains that stealth passive (i believe there is a 9 second cd per brush) as well as his R allows him to go invis, gain dmg reduc (possibly changed, but at one point it did), gain a short burst of movement speed, and resets his passive which grants him a good chunk of dmg from his passive - Unseen Predator. Did i mention that when he stealths in brush, he once again resets his passive? Kha can literally take a path thru the jungle that, if he's evolved his R, he will have constant stealth from each brush while doing massive damage if you're isolated... But... Ya know... Its only for a breif moment...

Akali is not only invisible in just a small radius, but she also does a mini-flash in the direction of your cursor, as well as gains a movement speed boost while in her W - Twilight Shroud that persists for a brief moment after she leaves the shroud. She also has massive burst damage, insane burst potential, great sustain, and is manaless. Shaco relies on blue buff to be able to be a constant threat. Akali just needs to wait 2.5 seconds (guesstimating, for you nitpickers) for her energy to regen. I will grant you, Shaco's stealth is arguably "better" than Akali's, but it depends on the situation and what you're using the stealth for. If you're trying to farm, Shaco's stealth is terrible: He breaks stealth once he auto attacks and has to wait for the cd to refresh. Akali is revealed for a brief moment but then restealths after a short moment until the shroud dissipates (something like 5-8 seconds). Thats a pretty handy tool.

Teemo's stealth is almost more useful than Shaco's as Teemo can be invisible INDEFINITELY. Unless you grab a red trinket or a champion with a stealth revealing ablility (looking at you Lee Sin... lmfao that never gets old), Teemo can literally stay invis an entire game. THAT'S PRETTY RIDICULOUS. Not only can he stealth, he can move around while stealthed in a bush and gains 40% attack speed (atk spd) after breaking stealth. Not to mention his shrooms can deal massive damage, slow an entire enemy team, and remain 4 times longer than Shaco's JitB. Teemo's stealth is activated by simply staying still for 2ish seconds i believe (twice as fast if he's in brush) and takes no mana to "cast". Talk about drawbacks.

Vayne Vayne Vayne. I can't even believe you're sitting here trying to tell me that Vayne's stealth is in any way worse than Shaco's. Would you like to know why? I'll tell you: RANGED TRUE DMG BRUH. Okay, you count the amount of games Vayne has been played in pro and I'll count the Shaco games and then we'll take a look and see which champ has carried harder shall we? While on paper Vayne's stealth seems like its at a huge disadvantage, you're forgetting several key components: THE REST OF VAYNE'S KIT AND EFFING RANGED TRUE DMG BRUH. Vayne can dodge/reposition with her Q - Tumble (which also conveniently activates her stealth if her she's casted her ultimate), has RANGED EFFING TRUE DMG with her W - Silver Bolts, has a KNOCKBACK with the possibility to STUN if her enemy collides with terrain on her E - Condemn, as well as passive movement speed when moving towards enemies as well as other passive effects from her ultimate (increased movement speed is the only one i can remember off the top of my head). Let me also put this in perspective. Vayne can 2 shot a carry with no stealth from 500 or so units aka RANGED. Shaco has to either 2 shot with his E - Two-Shiv Poison (if he built straight AP), which would take at least 10 seconds as its on a 4-5 second cd at max rank as well as terrible positioning TWICE from the carry who didnt back after the first time they were nearly nuked, OR, Shaco has to Q - Deceive directly on top of the carry, potentially being focused himself, and not guaranteeing the kill, especially if his R - Deceive is on cd. Did I mention RANGED TRUE DMG????

IN CONCLUSION, NOT only were you completely incorrect in stating that Shaco had the ONLY true stealth ability in the game, you are by and far completely off the mark when addressing how the other characters stealth abilities and mechanics fair against Shaco's. The only change to Shaco's stealth they should make is to reduce the amount of stealth from 5 seconds to 3 or 4. Other than that, Shaco's stealth is completely in line in terms of "power", especially when compared with other champs stealth abilities.

Sincerely,

Call Me BigPappa a Shaco main and Bard GOD

GlîtchyMar 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Call Me BigPappa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MksgaYgy,comment-id=000c0000000200000000,timestamp=2017-03-24T16:59:31.910+0000)

So you're going to ignore the fact that you straight up incorrectly stated that Shaco has the ONLY TRUE STEALTH ABILITY in the game? And then you're going to try to breakdown how Shaco's stealth is "moar op" than the other champs? Let me set this straight for you:

Shaco's Q - Deceive lasts 5 seconds at max rank. With max cdr (cooldown reduction), i believe its on a 5 or 6 second cd (cooldown). Its 10 seconds at lvl 1. He can place his W - Jack in the Box and not break invis and potentially fear an entire team for 2 seconds at max rank (.75 second fear at rank 1) and do a little to a lot of damage (the JitB can only target one opponent at a time tho) depending on your build. He can also jump walls with it/dodge skill shots and abilities as it "flashes" him towards his cursor, similar to flash, but a lower range.

Wukong's W - Decoy is.. oh idk cuz i dont play him much, but on a 8ish sec cd at max rank (with cdr i believe its at 4-6 seconds). The decoy clone and stealth last for 2ish seconds. However, his ultimate can literally knock up an entire team as well as deal significant damage to all who stay in it. So, if played correctly, Wukong's stealth is by far a greater threat. The decoy clone slows, deals a small amount of damage, and can completely confuse an enemy team, causing them to possibly waste entire ultimate abilities/summoner spells on a clone that lasts about 1.5 seconds. WUKONG'S STEALTH IS SHACO'S Q - DECEIVE AND R - HALLUCINATE'S LOVECHILD. ARE YOU EFFIN SERIOUS BRUH.

Kha,Zhix's stealth is "for a brief moment" over and over again. Kha has stealth from his R - Void Assault, but also is granted passive stealth if he chooses to evolve his R. Anytime he enters new brush, he gains that stealth passive (i believe there is a 9 second cd per brush) as well as his R allows him to go invis, gain dmg reduc (possibly changed, but at one point it did), gain a short burst of movement speed, and resets his passive which grants him a good chunk of dmg from his passive - Unseen Predator. Did i mention that when he stealths in brush, he once again resets his passive? Kha can literally take a path thru the jungle that, if he's evolved his R, he will have constant stealth from each brush while doing massive damage if you're isolated... But... Ya know... Its only for a breif moment...

Akali is not only invisible in just a small radius, but she also does a mini-flash in the direction of your cursor, as well as gains a movement speed boost while in her W - Twilight Shroud that persists for a brief moment after she leaves the shroud. She also has massive burst damage, insane burst potential, great sustain, and is manaless. Shaco relies on blue buff to be able to be a constant threat. Akali just needs to wait 2.5 seconds (guesstimating, for you nitpickers) for her energy to regen. I will grant you, Shaco's stealth is arguably "better" than Akali's, but it depends on the situation and what you're using the stealth for. If you're trying to farm, Shaco's stealth is terrible: He breaks stealth once he auto attacks and has to wait for the cd to refresh. Akali is revealed for a brief moment but then restealths after a short moment until the shroud dissipates (something like 5-8 seconds). Thats a pretty handy tool.

Teemo's stealth is almost more useful than Shaco's as Teemo can be invisible INDEFINITELY. Unless you grab a red trinket or a champion with a stealth revealing ablility (looking at you Lee Sin... lmfao that never gets old), Teemo can literally stay invis an entire game. THAT'S PRETTY RIDICULOUS. Not only can he stealth, he can move around while stealthed in a bush and gains 40% attack speed (atk spd) after breaking stealth. Not to mention his shrooms can deal massive damage, slow an entire enemy team, and remain 4 times longer than Shaco's JitB. Teemo's stealth is activated by simply staying still for 2ish seconds i believe (twice as fast if he's in brush) and takes no mana to "cast". Talk about drawbacks.

Vayne Vayne Vayne. I can't even believe you're sitting here trying to tell me that Vayne's stealth is in any way worse than Shaco's. Would you like to know why? I'll tell you: RANGED TRUE DMG BRUH. Okay, you count the amount of games Vayne has been played in pro and I'll count the Shaco games and then we'll take a look and see which champ has carried harder shall we? While on paper Vayne's stealth seems like its at a huge disadvantage, you're forgetting several key components: THE REST OF VAYNE'S KIT AND EFFING RANGED TRUE DMG BRUH. Vayne can dodge/reposition with her Q - Tumble (which also conveniently activates her stealth if her she's casted her ultimate), has RANGED EFFING TRUE DMG with her W - Silver Bolts, has a KNOCKBACK with the possibility to STUN if her enemy collides with terrain on her E - Condemn, as well as passive movement speed when moving towards enemies as well as other passive effects from her ultimate (increased movement speed is the only one i can remember off the top of my head). Let me also put this in perspective. Vayne can 2 shot a carry with no stealth from 500 or so units aka RANGED. Shaco has to either 2 shot with his E - Two-Shiv Poison (if he built straight AP), which would take at least 10 seconds as its on a 4-5 second cd at max rank as well as terrible positioning TWICE from the carry who didnt back after the first time they were nearly nuked, OR, Shaco has to Q - Deceive directly on top of the carry, potentially being focused himself, and not guaranteeing the kill, especially if his R - Deceive is on cd. Did I mention RANGED TRUE DMG????

IN CONCLUSION, NOT only were you completely incorrect in stating that Shaco had the ONLY true stealth ability in the game, you are by and far completely off the mark when addressing how the other characters stealth abilities and mechanics fair against Shaco's. The only change to Shaco's stealth they should make is to reduce the amount of stealth from 5 seconds to 3 or 4. Other than that, Shaco's stealth is completely in line in terms of "power", especially when compared with other champs stealth abilities.

Sincerely,

Call Me BigPappa a Shaco main and Bard GOD

First of all I WILL NOT address a Shaco main by what they request, second of all, literally every champ has a drawback with their invisibility (except Shaco), Teemo CAN'T stay invisible if he attacks or is taking damage,Shaco can't either but he bursts, plus saying Shaco's invisibility is balanced like the others is pure bs, there's literally no drawback to it.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMar 24, 20171 votes

WUKONG'S STEALTH IS SHACO'S Q - DECEIVE AND R - HALLUCINATE'S LOVECHILD. ARE YOU EFFIN SERIOUS BRUH.

Is there really a need to reply... i just read Wukong text... full BS

Call Me BigPappaMar 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

First of all I WILL NOT address a Shaco main by what they request, second of all, literally every champ has a drawback with their invisibility (except Shaco), Teemo CAN'T stay invisible if he attacks or is taking damage,Shaco can't either but he bursts, plus saying Shaco's invisibility is balanced like the others is pure bs, there's literally no drawback to it.

First off, you're obviously not a true player. In any sense of the words. And Shaco's stealth is possibly the best stealth ability in the game if not for the fact that to do any damage he must be literally on top of an enemy champion. You either get focused and pick up the kill, or you get focused and die. Only great Shaco's can survive a teamfight; either that, or your opponents are unskilled. Unless Shaco sets up proper boxes before an engage, which means 20-30 seconds of planning and prophetic strategizing, he is completely useless in teamfights. 5 seconds of stealth means nothing when you have to literally be behind enemy frontliners to deal damage. In a game where all players have some semblance of teamwork and knowledge of their role (meaning not bronze, silver, and basically most of gold), Shaco's stealth is easily handled. The only nerf it could use would be, like i said, to reduce the amount of stealth from 5 to 3 seconds, as even I am surprised at how long im able to stay stealthed while juking entire enemy teams, and/or increase the cooldown from 10-15 seconds at rank 1, scaling down sto 10 seconds at max rank. Other than that, if Shaco didnt have that crazy burst, he'd be a walking pile of health constantly trying to bait people into boxes and hoping their dumb enough to follow him. Get real man, you're just salty cuz you get crushed time and again by him and you're mad now. We get it.

Edit: Even when building ap, where he has a ranged mini nuke he can launch from stealth, he has to be in range of a multitude of cc abilities which any decent team would have ready and available. You just need to learn how to beat Shaco. First: Stop Chasing -_-

GlîtchyMar 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Call Me BigPappa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MksgaYgy,comment-id=000c000000020000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-25T19:18:01.358+0000)

First off, you're obviously not a true player. In any sense of the words. And Shaco's stealth is possibly the best stealth ability in the game if not for the fact that to do any damage he must be literally on top of an enemy champion. You either get focused and pick up the kill, or you get focused and die. Only great Shaco's can survive a teamfight; either that, or your opponents are unskilled. Unless Shaco sets up proper boxes before an engage, which means 20-30 seconds of planning and prophetic strategizing, he is completely useless in teamfights. 5 seconds of stealth means nothing when you have to literally be behind enemy frontliners to deal damage. In a game where all players have some semblance of teamwork and knowledge of their role (meaning not bronze, silver, and basically most of gold), Shaco's stealth is easily handled. The only nerf it could use would be, like i said, to reduce the amount of stealth from 5 to 3 seconds, as even I am surprised at how long im able to stay stealthed while juking entire enemy teams, and/or increase the cooldown from 10-15 seconds at rank 1, scaling down sto 10 seconds at max rank. Other than that, if Shaco didnt have that crazy burst, he'd be a walking pile of health constantly trying to bait people into boxes and hoping their dumb enough to follow him. Get real man, you're just salty cuz you get crushed time and again by him and you're mad now. We get it.

Edit: Even when building ap, where he has a ranged mini nuke he can launch from stealth, he has to be in range of a multitude of cc abilities which any decent team would have ready and available. You just need to learn how to beat Shaco. First: Stop Chasing -_-

I never chase Shaco, chasing a jg in general screams "bad idea"

Call Me BigPappaMar 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I never chase Shaco, chasing a jg in general screams "bad idea"

Lmao. L2play man. Stop complaining. Git Gud.

GlîtchyMar 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Call Me BigPappa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MksgaYgy,comment-id=000c00000002000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-25T19:30:08.070+0000)

Lmao. L2play man. Stop complaining. Git Gud.

You just said, "to beat Shaco, first: stop chasing" now you're saying that's wrong because I DON'T chase him, the hell you trying to say?

Teriyaki BukkakeMar 25, 20172 votes

The thing is, if you play shaco you will noticed that he relies entirely on either his q or very well placed boxes, with the q having a fair cd, and it not doing a shit tonne of damage in comparison to what alot of other abilities do, his q actually is a well made ability seeing as its not OP and actually needs to be used correctly or it could cost you your life. All the champs you mentioned have very high and reliable damage (maybe not teemo as much) which they can put out consistently, which shaco cannot do as well as these champs, because once youve used your empowered q+auto, the only thing you have to do damage is your e, and tbh that ability is shithouse until later on in the game (apart from the passive thats neato!). So with his q being half of his burst kit, his mobility, and his engage/escape, you can see how that has its drawbacks. His W and R have to be used relatively well otherwise they are just downright useless, and you already know about his e.

Shaco doesn't need a buff, hes fine where he is. Should his q be different? HELL NO. Just because you got killed by tank shaco doesnt make it "OP". Ive been fucked by a jungle thresh (who im pretty sure was a smurf), but that doesnt make jungle thresh "OP" either, he was just played well, and you probably played into him, which is just unlucky.

GlîtchyMar 25, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Meat,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MksgaYgy,comment-id=000c0000000200000001,timestamp=2017-03-25T14:14:53.792+0000)

The thing is, if you play shaco you will noticed that he relies entirely on either his q or very well placed boxes, with the q having a fair cd, and it not doing a shit tonne of damage in comparison to what alot of other abilities do, his q actually is a well made ability seeing as its not OP and actually needs to be used correctly or it could cost you your life. All the champs you mentioned have very high and reliable damage (maybe not teemo as much) which they can put out consistently, which shaco cannot do as well as these champs, because once youve used your empowered q+auto, the only thing you have to do damage is your e, and tbh that ability is shithouse until later on in the game (apart from the passive thats neato!). So with his q being half of his burst kit, his mobility, and his engage/escape, you can see how that has its drawbacks. His W and R have to be used relatively well otherwise they are just downright useless, and you already know about his e.

Shaco doesn't need a buff, hes fine where he is. Should his q be different? HELL NO. Just because you got killed by tank shaco doesnt make it "OP". Ive been fucked by a jungle thresh (who im pretty sure was a smurf), but that doesnt make jungle thresh "OP" either, he was just played well, and you probably played into him, which is just unlucky.

Tank Shaco, has 180-ish MR AT MOST with the build I faced, yet 1.2K AP barely even scratched him.

Call Me BigPappaMar 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Meat,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MksgaYgy,comment-id=000c0000000200000001,timestamp=2017-03-25T14:14:53.792+0000)

The thing is, if you play shaco you will noticed that he relies entirely on either his q or very well placed boxes, with the q having a fair cd, and it not doing a shit tonne of damage in comparison to what alot of other abilities do, his q actually is a well made ability seeing as its not OP and actually needs to be used correctly or it could cost you your life. All the champs you mentioned have very high and reliable damage (maybe not teemo as much) which they can put out consistently, which shaco cannot do as well as these champs, because once youve used your empowered q+auto, the only thing you have to do damage is your e, and tbh that ability is shithouse until later on in the game (apart from the passive thats neato!). So with his q being half of his burst kit, his mobility, and his engage/escape, you can see how that has its drawbacks. His W and R have to be used relatively well otherwise they are just downright useless, and you already know about his e.

Shaco doesn't need a buff, hes fine where he is. Should his q be different? HELL NO. Just because you got killed by tank shaco doesnt make it "OP". Ive been fucked by a jungle thresh (who im pretty sure was a smurf), but that doesnt make jungle thresh "OP" either, he was just played well, and you probably played into him, which is just unlucky.

Exaaactly. Spelled out much better than i could.

GlîtchyMar 23, 20172 votes

Have you seen the thread titled "What's wrong with Shaco mains?"

if you have, refer to that.

Also literally several Shaco's I've seen have said he needs a buff.

Inari Fox OrrionMar 24, 20173 votes

As a Shaco main, albeit a Support who has a tendency to get Lv1 dragon, I can say wholeheartedly... ...that he doesn't need buffs or nerfs. If Riot made him and possibly one champion from every other archetype the basis for their balancing team, the game'd see no more of the "Lethality+BC+LW" builds that make tanks, squishies, anything in-between, and any unique BUILD in-between, pointless to play.

But that's me... though I do see the people asking him for buffs to be a bit... er... motivated to their own whimsy and selfish desire, I guess. If he was any stronger, he'd outclass Graves and LeeSin , but if he was any weaker he'd be Nidalee #2.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERMar 23, 20172 votes

They want AD Shaco buffs cause it's dead (from what I've heard).

Most Shaco these days usually building AP iirc.

Kledy McKledFaceMar 23, 20173 votes

shaco problem :

BAse dmgs are too high (e especially)

ap ration is too high on e and w

permacrit is way too op for ap part (should be bonus damage scaling with ad)

his boxes do way too much damage/ are too tanky for the dmgs they have

Yaśuo MainMar 23, 20174 votes

E is actually so useless, it's just a ranged auto that slows and deals magic damage

DaNinadMar 23, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MksgaYgy,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-03-23T23:37:13.056+0000)

E is actually so useless, it's just a ranged auto that slows and deals magic damage

unless you go full ap shaco and freaking one shot that caitlyn thats been annoying your adc

Yaśuo MainMar 23, 20177 votes

ya but thats the point, E is useless on one build and fuckin broken on the other

A Basic IslandMar 24, 20177 votes

yeah that 5 base damage with 30 gained per level on E is SO damn high like WOW

Troll for TrumpMar 24, 20172 votes

AD Shaco isn't dead anymore.

His rework was just...bad.

It initially encouraged AP shaco over AD shaco.

The rework overall didn't feel like a rework. It felt more like a nerf to a champ that was already weird and rarely seen.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 24, 20174 votes

it was a nerf to his early game but a buff to his late game. initially the numbers were just too good and he was busted, so they nerfed AD. Turned out his AP build was also busted OP, so they had to nerf that too.

Shaco players seem to have a victim complex though, and felt like their super OP champ was being picked on, prob cus they hadn't adapted to the changes yet

AldapsayarMar 24, 20172 votes

Because he requires experience to play and have fun now. His skill floor is higher now.

Mains still play him and do not ask for buffs. Its people who used to randomly play him and enjoy massacre he creates ask for buffs, because you cant have such game randomly anymore. You have to know this champ to make him work. And that's what people don't like apart from mains

Wet DrymanMar 25, 20172 votes

I don't think that his rework increased skill floor. I would say that it actually decreased it due to uncounterable 4 seconds stealth, zoning and CC with his R, buffed damage from Q+backstab combo and even more increased utility with W maxed as second. Even his statistics say otherwise. Pre rework Shaco had depending on the meta from 47% to 51% win rate, top lane AP Shaco had even less while post rework he had up to 56% as AP and after bugfixes his AD build started to grow in win rate too. Toplane AP Shaco has 53% win rate now.

Changes to W, Q and R made him easier to play (lowered his skill floor) but made him more challenging to master (increased his skill ceiling) as utilizing his R zone and CC in the most efficient fashion while fooling enemies at the same time can be challenging and placing boxes while invisible lets him do more funky stuff. It even goes with Riot's champion design philosophy: easy to play challenging to master.

AldapsayarMar 26, 20171 votes

AP Shaco jungle is busted af, I admit. He might not have high skill floor and eveything you said can be said about AP Shaco. But if you look at reddit, majority of mains use AD build, because it is more viable and has more utility in game. And much harder to play. That's why I was talking about AD Shaco. I should have clarified that, mb. AD Shaco now attracts only dedicated players. Playing him is harder as he used to have 4 seconds stealth and 2.2 AD ratio from level one. Now he has 1.5, 2.5, 3, 3.75 seconds stealth with levels and crit on his Q with about 1.2 AD scaling. His e is a joke now til you put 3 points on it (which is done after you put 3 points on Q and one point on W and R) which is on roughly level 8. That's means I don't have E as damage source til level 8. W is better, that's easier. R maybe also easier for beginner or casual player, but in general, trust me, his AD version requires much more brain then before. I even did not know what to do after rework till I found new build from guy named Chinese Jester. Then I played more and more and realized that AD Shaco became like marksmen. He doesn't scale naturally. He can scale only with certain items. Tank Shaco is actually more then people think. He actually requires good mechanics and his itemization is most expensive. People think its so easy to create chaos as Shaco now, but they have no idea how much work you put for that now. And I like it. Its very rewarding and teaches me a lot about jungling. Before I could just jump in and kill everybody. Now you gotta plan every step and also be ahead enemy jungler, because before you could outduel any of them (except for Xin and Graves). Seriously, you just could walk into their jungle and kill em. Now you cannot do that. Til you have special items xd. Sorry for too many letters. I got nothing to do now.

Wet DrymanMar 26, 20171 votes

I wouldn't say that AP Shaco jungle post Gunblade nerfs is strong. He is played rarely since then as AP in the jungle to the point that there is not enough data on various sites. The current problem with Shaco is his bruiser build.

Bruiser build is way too forgiving on him and is extremely unhealthy with his long duration of stealth. With Trinity and Titanic he is bursting down squishies better than with Lethality/Crit build path and after he is done with their squishies he can DPS with clone while being hard to kill. There is really not planning or mechanical outplays or macro involved in it, you just roflstomp their team. In order to stabilize win rate on this build (win rate speaking) there must be some power shifts in his kit and change of base stats in favor of scalling (but that is just my opinion).

Is AD Shaco harder now? Yes, and this is because his AD scalings and base damage got nerfed and he must rush Tiamat no matter what making his Lethality stacking slower and his early damage lower. But his stealth and current damage still lets him to apply pressure, taking kills without much thought required.

Currently AP Shaco seems to be in the most balanced state out of all build paths (not as weak as AD, not as strong as Bruiser): 52% in the Top lane with 0,6% pick rate and also represents Riot's philosophy with tricking stuff.

EDIT: I am a guy who mained this champion since season 4 (played him earlier but it was more like having fun with troll builds). His post rework state makes me despise this champion. I don't find any fun in playing him, there is no more thrill of being completely cucked by your counters, there is no clever playing around pink wards anymore, there is no decision making with "do I want to max W for utility next or Q for more damage untill IE?", bad clone usage is less punishing because of zoning potential it brings now, and this stealth duration didn't feel as unfair as it is now.

BananaSlayerAMOMar 23, 20171 votes

Did people use to build item 3748 on Shaco or is it just a new disease?

Literally can still assassinate squishies while being almost impossible to kill

GlîtchyMar 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Did people use to build on Shaco or is it just a new disease?

Gotta be a new disease, I normally see Ravenous, not titanic.

Lord MalpercioMar 24, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Gotta be a new disease, I normally see Ravenous, not titanic.

A lot of high-tier Shacos actually abused it pre-rework. It was better than Rav for assassination lategame because of the AA reset and 20% damage boost.

Basically went Q-Titanic-AA = SUPERDEAD squishy.

Mostro GalloMar 24, 20171 votes

wtf is a tank shaco

can the boards stop making shit up please

GlîtchyMar 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mostro Gallo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MksgaYgy,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2017-03-24T16:24:38.862+0000)

wtf is a tank shaco

can the boards stop making shit up please

Look at my match history, the last defeat I had as Veigar.

Glory ln DeathMar 24, 20171 votes

Some people just want to watch the world burn.

GlîtchyMar 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MksgaYgy,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2017-03-24T19:44:55.218+0000)

Some people just want to watch the world burn.

Shaco mains be like

https://media.tenor.co/images/9e382900d4d30d26bdc1747cb3abf823/raw