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Ashe should be focused on utility

Mira Arya Enthe··5 votes·1,037 views

My original post was filled with flaws. So I am going to try again.

Ashe as a champion is really awesome. But currently broken. But I don't think it's any mystery why she is broken. When Ashe had no damage steroids, except her early game harass on her passive. She was still considered a good ADC. She just focused on utility instead of damage. She is still the highest utility ADC in the game, with global vision, a perma slow, a stun and good harass. But her new Q is the problem. Since it's release she has been on an off broken or worthless. The idea of giving Ashe a steroid comparable to a hypercarry like Tristana, Kog'Maw. A Damage steroid comparable to Draven. Is absurd. On top of that, the damage steroid they gave Ashe does not fit her thematically. She is a ranger, with global threat, precise strikes and useful tools for her team. Her new Q, turns her into a machine gun turret.

I have no direct suggestion, as everyone is obsessed with her new Q just because it looks cool with runaan's and pushes towers. Though honestly, being a machine gun tower destroyer is Kog'Maw, Tristana and Jinx's job. But if I were in control, I would rework her Q into something less broken, that provides her with either a cool utility, something ice based or precision strike tool. Something that fits her theme more and will allow her to stay strong, instead of bouncing between useless and OP.

EDIT:

It terms of Thematics. This is always what I imagine when I see an archer

http://img.wallpaperfolder.com/f/6B717F4291DD/archer-men-warrior-green-arrow.jpg

That whole robin hood feeling of precise, penetrating arrows, striking the enemy often from surprises.

Not...

http://67.media.tumblr.com/871f2314f11beb9f0cc9a9e90be4f978/tumblr_inline_nz690hobRy1r8c6s8_500.jpg

34 Comments

Shadòw4 votes

Ashe is the ADC you pick when you want a late game carry and the enemy consists out of kiteable Champions.

It has been always like this and it will stay like this, stop making posts about it.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

{quoted}

Ashe is the ADC you pick when you want a late game carry and the enemy consists out of kiteable Champions.

It has been always like this and it will stay like this, stop making posts about it.

Meanwhile she is currently the most broken ADC in the game. And top tier players say it's because with her high utility, her damage is just too strong. Which is why Riot is nerfing her Q and ult DMG to try to compensate. However, since the rework in early 2015 she has been dodging between worthless and overpowered. So the problem obviously lay with the only major change in the rework, which was her Q.

And dude, you main Zed and only play mid mages and assasins. What would you even know about the ADC role?

Shadòw3 votes

I can't see why her Q should be broken.

Ashe does what she should do, and that is kiting and having a strong late.

She needs small number changes, but she is a balanced ADC gameplay wise.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

{quoted}

I can't see why her Q should be broken.

Ashe does what she should do, and that is kiting and having a strong late.

She needs small number changes, but she i a balanced ADC gameplay wise.

Not only is it broken thematically. But in gameplay it resulted in her insane win rate right after the rework released. And then was nerfed, she became useless. An then they changed how it worked, and she is currently OP again. She is the top win rate ADC and is picked or banned almost permanently in Plat+.

Shadòw3 votes

that's because she is too strong number wise right now.

She gets rewarded for continuous auto attacking with her Q which fits her kiting play-style very well.

And she is not useless or OP depending on her numbers... as Ashe you can always come back by farming and aiming for late when you're behind but also you can get still get denied when ahead because of her lack of mobility.

Btw, I am Plat and i haven't seen an Ashe ban in years.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p8wwrvZg,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-08-17T15:58:15.506+0000)

However, since the rework in early 2015 she has been dodging between worthless and overpowered.

pretty sure this goes for almost every marksman though. the class has always had issues of being dominated by 2 or 3 top adc, while the rest is barely picked, if ever.

at all times, there is some marksman whos always considered broken, while the rest is "worthless".

maybe the entire idea of a class of champions who does nothign but farm for 30 minutes and then suddenly steamrolls everyone is actually shit.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p8wwrvZg,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-08-17T16:06:53.875+0000)

pretty sure this goes for almost every marksman though.

Perhaps. I am addressing the marksman I play. If somebody wants to make a post about problems with other marksman, they are welcome.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p8wwrvZg,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2016-08-17T16:07:59.884+0000)

Perhaps. I am addressing the marksman I play. If somebody wants to make a post about problems with other marksman, they are welcome.

i know. but what im saying is, that its not an issue with ashe being broken in particular, but the class as a whole.

if ashe isnt currently broken, its vayne, jinx, sivir, twitch, kog maw, cait, graves etc. etc. because theyre all binary like that.

theyre just rotating through between worthless and op.

Quepha3 votes

She wasn't considered a good adc before her rework.

She actually was a good adc, but she wasn't considered good.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

{quoted}

She wasn't considered a good adc before her rework.

She actually was a good adc, but she wasn't considered good.

The point is. Prior to the rework she hovered around a steady 50-52% win rate. Which is healthy. Since then she has sway from 57% to 46% to 55% and on and on. Because a super high utility ADC with a perma slow didn't need a damage steroid comparable to low utility ADCs with no slow.

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p8wwrvZg,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-08-17T16:06:39.099+0000)

The point is. Prior to the rework she hovered around a steady 50-52% win rate. Which is healthy. Since then she has sway from 57% to 46% to 55% and on and on. Because a super high utility ADC with a perma slow didn't need a damage steroid comparable to low utility ADCs with no slow.

I agree with you, but most of the playerbase does not and they would constantly treat you like garbage if you tried to play Ashe. Users of these boards proudly proclaim that they constantly called old Ashe "Trashe" despite the fact that she had a top-tier winrate in solo queue for years.

XIII Vanitas3 votes

I really like her Q mechanic, I think it fits her. The only problem is that she has too much damage right and Riot is already addressing that with reasonable nerfs. Same thing for Sivir and her W.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

I really like her Q mechanic, I think it fits her. The only problem is that she has too much damage right and Riot is already addressing that with reasonable nerfs. Same thing for Sivir and her W.

Good to hear from another Ashe player, not a Zed main. Addressing the Q, it was a lot of fun at first. But seeing how it has affected her overall theme as a precise, high utility ranger, who leads her team with utility and reliable - but not very strong damage. I have since changed my mind.

Especially with how much she wavers between broken and useless since it was changed. Prior to that she hovered at a fairly average win rate, and was always good but never broken.

XIII Vanitas2 votes

I think it was only her latest Q buffs that made Ashe broken (the Q duration was increased and the stacks were made to fall off one at a time, instead of all at once).

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

I think it was only her latest Q buffs that made Ashe broken (the Q duration was increased and the stacks were made to fall off one at a time, instead of all at once).

I agree that is the primary issue. I don't like her Q because Riot took a character design that had no steroids and was about precision(with her passive and ult) and utility. And instead of bringing it up to date with the current standards, they gave her a volley fire rapid fire Q that makes her every single other typical archery character in videogames.

Sightless663 votes

I completely disagree with your assertion that she has been either broken or worthless. I seriously don't know where you're getting that from. Since the rework, she has spent the vast majority of her time in a balanced state. She was arguably the most successfully balanced adc in the game. The recent nerfs to caster ad carries and the buffs to crit itemization gave her a bit too much damage, and she needs a little removed. That is fine. There is no problem whatsoever with needing small changes after the better part of a year.

The new q is thematically great too. Fantasy archers can launch multiple arrows with great precision. That's a classic ranger trope. Shooting multiple arrows at once is already part of her kit in the w as well. It's her thing. It fits exactly with what I expect of her.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

I completely disagree with your assertion that she has been either broken or worthless. I seriously don't know where you're getting that from. Since the rework, she has spent the vast majority of her time in a balanced state. She was arguably the most successfully balanced adc in the game. The recent nerfs to caster ad carries and the buffs to crit itemization gave her a bit too much damage, and she needs a little removed. That is fine. There is no problem whatsoever with needing small changes after the better part of a year.

The new q is thematically great too. Fantasy archers can launch multiple arrows with great precision. That's a classic ranger trope. Shooting multiple arrows at once is already part of her kit in the w as well. It's her thing. It fits exactly with what I expect of her.

Perhaps because I do archery in real life I have a different perspective. But to me, archery is about precise attacks, often launched in surprise. More of a hunter, than a machine gun. Rapid fire doesn't help with hunting Deer, and screws with your ability to penetrate targets that are lightly armored. I don't lean towards Tolkien as much as I do Robinhood, one precise black arrow, to put somebody down.

Sightless662 votes

Firing 9 arrows out in a wide cone isn't exactly about precision work either. I doubt you'd be doing that when hunting deer.

I get wanting something different from what the champion currently is, but this is a major fantasy archer trope, and it's completely valid for Ashe to fulfill it. Precision through precisely putting multiple arrows exactly where you want them is a cool thing. There's room for the sniper/hunter archer trope too, and Ashe has some of that in her ult. It all works together fine.

Regarding her balance: She's spent the vast majority of her time post-rework sitting at around a 51-53% winrate, and only a small amount of time underpowered or overpowered. She's needed a below average amount of balance attention for maintenance of a normal playrate. She's only become overpowered following item buffs and nerfs to a large number of champions that work well against her, which is a standard reason for a champion to become overpowered, and is an easy problem to address.

Overall conclusion: she's fine. Nerf her, and leave her be.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

Firing 9 arrows out in a wide cone isn't exactly about precision work either. I doubt you'd be doing that when hunting deer.

I get wanting something different from what the champion currently is, but this is a major fantasy archer trope, and it's completely valid for Ashe to fulfill it. Precision through precisely putting multiple arrows exactly where you want them is a cool thing. There's room for the sniper/hunter archer trope too, and Ashe has some of that in her ult. It all works together fine.

Except she already has a multishot on her W. I do not see the purpose of having 2 different multishot mechanics. And while her W is possible in real life(albeit silly). Her Q is just goofy. I mean imagine actually sitting there, shooting 5 arrows like that. It loses the cool factor. Not even Legolas does that, because it would look as silly as his rock jumping scene.

Sightless662 votes

I do not see the purpose of having 2 different multishot mechanics.

I can turn this around and ask why have two different precision mechanics in the same kit. We've already got the ult, so why do we need something else to say she's a precise shooter?

The reason to have it is because they are different. One involves firing multiple arrows at once to hit multiple targets, and the other is shooting and firing precisely as quickly as possible. They fulfill different fantasies. They're ultimately different tropes. Throwing them both together as "multishot" doesn't capture how people actually think about them.

And while her W is possible in real life(albeit silly).

Dude, no one is doing this in real life. That's a weak justification. It's completely pointless in any real world scenario, and no real archer would ever do something like this in a fight, on a hunt, or for any reason other than to make his friends roll their eyeballs at the stupid stuff he's willing to do with a bow. It may be physically possible, but no real archer worth their salt would ever bother with something so dumb.

It becomes cool because of the fantasy element. It becomes awesome because we can use the animated character to make it look less foolish. If a real person did this, we'd all call him a dumbass. When Ashe does it, it looks cool (and to be honest, it's still easily the least-cool of her mechanics).

Not even Legolas does that, because it would look as silly as his rock jumping scene.

Sure, much for the same reason why he doesn't shoot arrows made of ice larger than his own body like Ashe does: because he's played by a real person, and because it doesn't fit in that universe. If we see humans doing something unrealistic without a huge amount of establishing precedent that physical laws don't apply, then it's really easy to violate our suspension of disbelief. If a real person did Yasuo's "hold people in the air defying gravity while slashing at them", it would look silly too.

The thing is, Ashe and Yasuo aren't real people, and they don't live in a world with normal physical constraints. They're animated characters, and that gives a ton of leeway for what we can pull off. We can take unrealistic things and make them look cool specifically because it doesn't look so unrealistic when an animated character does it. You can take something that would look cheesy in real life (like a giant arrow made of ice) and make it look cool in an animated setting.

End result: Ashe's Q does look cool.

Again, I get that you want her to be more of a robin hood style character, but it's totally valid that she isn't. There are a ton of different tropes relating to archery.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

I can turn this around and ask why have two different precision mechanics in the same kit. We've already got the ult, so why do we need something else to say she's a precise shooter?

The reason to have it is because they are different. One involves firing multiple arrows at once to hit multiple targets, and the other is shooting and firing precisely as quickly as possible. They fulfill different fantasies. They're ultimately different tropes. Throwing them both together as "multishot" doesn't capture how people actually think about them.

Dude, no one is doing this in real life. That's a weak justification. It's completely pointless in any real world scenario, and no real archer would ever do something like this in a fight, on a hunt, or for any reason other than to make his friends roll their eyeballs at the stupid stuff he's willing to do with a bow. It may be physically possible, but no real archer worth their salt would ever bother with something so dumb.

It becomes cool because of the fantasy element. It becomes awesome because we can use the animated character to make it look less foolish. If a real person did this, we'd all call him a dumbass. When Ashe does it, it looks cool (and to be honest, it's still easily the least-cool of her mechanics).

Sure, much for the same reason why he doesn't shoot arrows made of ice larger than his own body like Ashe does: because he's played by a real person, and because it doesn't fit in that universe. If we see humans doing something unrealistic without a huge amount of establishing precedent that physical laws don't apply, then it's really easy to violate our suspension of disbelief. If a real person did Yasuo's "hold people in the air defying gravity while slashing at them", it would look silly too.

The thing is, Ashe and Yasuo aren't real people, and they don't live in a world with normal physical constraints. They're animated characters, and that gives a ton of leeway for what we can pull off. We can take unrealistic things and make them look cool specifically because it doesn't look so unrealistic when an animated character does it. You can take something that would look cheesy in real life (like a giant arrow made of ice) and make it look cool in an animated setting.

End result: Ashe's Q does look cool.

Again, I get that you want her to be more of a robin hood style character, but it's totally valid that she isn't. There are a ton of different tropes relating to archery.

Looking cool is subjective. And there may be "lots of archery tropes" but most games only ever get 1 true archer and it's always some volley fire, rapid fire crud. Same "fantasy" over and over. And in classical literature. Most mentions of individual archery are about precision, stealth, penetration, accuracy or range. Rapid fire only comes into play heavily in formation artillery scenarios. These archery fantasies always take back seat to rapid fire. And League took Ashe who WAS about precision. Her old design had no rapid fire at all. And made INTO rapid fire. That is the problem. They changed the fantasy of a character who WASN'T that.

Her old Q was her slow. Her old passive was Focus and assured your first hit would be a crit. And while her old passive doesn't fit the design direction of the game, her new Q doesn't fit the fantasy she originated with as a character.

Sightless661 votes

Looking cool is subjective.

Of course. My point is that you saying it isn't cool is just as subjective as anyone else's opinion. You don't see it as cool. Other people do. At no point does anything there imply that change is needed. You end up a little put-off, and I can sympathize with that, but someone would be no matter what.

Thing is, you're not just saying that she's uncool in your opinion. You're arguing that she needs changes because her thematics don't fit. That's something I can object to without regard to my own opinion about Ashe's thematics or design, because I can point to everyone else who does like her thematics and does think they fit fine. They are cool to plenty of people. From a neutral viewpoint, change isn't needed.

Basically, when you start arguing that changes are needed, there has to be a bit more going for you than "I personally would prefer a different thematic", but that's ultimately all I think you have going for you.

but most games only ever get 1 true archer and it's always some volley fire, rapid fire crud.

This is not most games though, and we have multiple archers. Want precision? Varus has a decent amount of that going on. All about shooting that one well-aimed arrow.

Besides, if you really want a list of "precision only" archers in games, it's not exactly hard to find them. Hell, you could start with Drow Ranger in Dota if you want an easy example. You're exaggerating this problem, and it's not very helpful for your argument.

Her old design had no rapid fire at all.

Sure. Her old design also failed to fulfill her fantasy and as a result had one of the largest disconnects between player perception and actual champion strength of any champion in the game. It needed modification. Exploring different options for an archer was a perfectly fine approach.

Going for a "precision only" approach would also have been valid, assuming that an appropriate mechanic could have been found. However, given that this worked perfectly well from a gameplay standpoint and from a thematic standpoint, change is not warranted.

her new Q doesn't fit the fantasy she originated with as a character.

Things change. It fits her now. That's how League of Legends works. Thematics and gameplay influence each other.

Keira Helsh2 votes

Riot does seem notorious at forgetting champion Identity recently.

Ashe: "All the world on one arrow." "Make it count." "I only need one shot!" "Right between the eyes!" "My arrows fly true."

Meanwhile throwing out flurries of less damaging arrows as if compensating for poor aim/damage.

Revali1 votes

that's almost the joke with her, even her /joke does that I think.

Hige1 votes

let me tell you that it is a breeze to hear that Ashe is broken, a couple years ago she was deemed worthless even though she has ALWAYS been seriously broken on her own.

Problem on Ashe is the way crit works for her, while it's not 100% extra damage, it's still a hefty number depending on your crit chance and crit dmg modifier, when she activates her Q you're effectively "critting" 3 times which is kinda silly to be honest, considering that she also applies lifesteal from all the shots.

Fix should be to make Ranger's focus apply frost shot damage only on the first autoattack itself while the flurry remains a fixed amount of damage that lengthens the slow duration and applies life steal.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

let me tell you that it is a breeze to hear that Ashe is broken, a couple years ago she was deemed worthless even though she has ALWAYS been seriously broken on her own.

Problem on Ashe is the way crit works for her, while it's not 100% extra damage, it's still a hefty number depending on your crit chance and crit dmg modifier, when she activates her Q you're effectively "critting" 3 times which is kinda silly to be honest, considering that she also applies lifesteal from all the shots.

Fix should be to make Ranger's focus apply frost shot damage only on the first autoattack itself while the flurry remains a fixed amount of damage that lengthens the slow duration and applies life steal.

It is 5 shots, not three. And if only the first shot applied frost show and lifesteal, it would become a detriment to even use her Q.

Hige1 votes

no, lifesteal would apply from all the shots, frost shot is her "crit" and it would still apply from the autoattack itself, just not the 5 empowered ones after.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

no, lifesteal would apply from all the shots, frost shot is her "crit" and it would still apply from the autoattack itself, just not the 5 empowered ones after.

Her Q converts her basic attacks INTO 5 arrows. If only the first applied frost shot, then she would only get 1/5th of an auto frost shot during her Q. Making her Q worthless.

Hige1 votes

considering that the animation for ranger's focus is pretty much the same of a single autoattack and the fact that she gains up to 40% attack speed, I'd say that applying frost shot ONCE for every autoattack animation is more than enough for the duration of the spell, damage would still be increased and cadence even more so, plus this would make Ranger's focus easier to balance since you wouldn't have exponential growth which is basically Ashe's only problem.

Ashe needs a damage nerf, you said it yourself so it's either this or some bandaid solution like Kalista's 90% AD from autoattacks or perhaps a volley nerf.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

considering that the animation for ranger's focus is pretty much the same of a single autoattack and the fact that she gains up to 40% attack speed, I'd say that applying frost shot ONCE for every autoattack animation is more than enough for the duration of the spell, damage would still be increased and cadence even more so, plus this would make Ranger's focus easier to balance since you wouldn't have exponential growth which is basically Ashe's only problem.

Ashe needs a damage nerf, you said it yourself so it's either this or some bandaid solution like Kalista's 90% AD from autoattacks or perhaps a volley nerf.

You aren't understanding. If only the first arrow applies frost shot. Then during her Q she is losing 4/5ths of her passive, in exchange for slightly higher AS and a little bit of an AD boost.

Hige1 votes

The thing is that she isn't, because in reality you aren't firing 5 autos, animation-wise it's one single auto with a multiplier of 135% AD that's broken into 5 small missiles of 27% AD each at lvl 5. If this wasn't the case you'd be able to move in between autoattacks like Kog maw does.

That's why I'm saying that Ranger's focus autoattack animation is PRETTY MUCH the same of a single autoattack, because in reality the animation is milliseconds longer and it locks you in place but since you have an increase of 40% AS it's not really perceivable.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

The thing is that she isn't, because in reality you aren't firing 5 autos, animation-wise it's one single auto with a multiplier of 135% AD that's broken into 5 small missiles of 27% AD each at lvl 5. If this wasn't the case you'd be able to move in between autoattacks like Kog maw does.

That's why I'm saying that Ranger's focus autoattack animation is PRETTY MUCH the same of a single autoattack, because in reality the animation is milliseconds longer and it locks you in place but since you have an increase of 40% AS it's not really perceivable.

The point is if only the first arrow of her volley fire applied her passive, she loses 4/5ths of her passive on each volley. Because her passive would only be boosting one 27%AD attack and the other 4 would just be 27% AD. This is part of why her Q is so problematic. It combination with her passive, which is a good ability, her Q is nearly impossible to balance.

Hige2 votes

uhm I see what you mean, I thought that she dealt 100% dmg on one auto plus 27% dmg on subsequent arrows, that's not the case, her damage literally breaks in 5 and adds up. You are right.

Now we agree though that her Q is really hard to balance at least but maybe lowering the total damage wouldn't such a bad direction, say instead of a total of 135% AD she could deal 115% AD or something.

Rain NT1 votes

shes fine now after the nerfs, still strong, but on par with the likes of Luc Cait

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