Tired of this attitude: "This thing is strategically important, thus it should be nerfed/changed"

Khristophoros··1 votes·376 views

For example, saying that waveclear on midlaners needs to be nerfed or waveclear should be less important for mid.

Look I get that the game needs to change and new stuff needs to be added over time, but there is no reason to change the basic fundamentals of the game. The game has a huge playerbase already because we LIKE the way the game is played. It's not perfect but mostly we like the fundamentals of the game. We have 3 different lanes, and the jungle, and each one emphasizes different strategies, different playstyles.

A more welcome kind of change would be diversifying champion kits so it's not "only ADCs bot" or "only mages mid" or "only bruisers top" or "only enchanters as support" etc... and most of those things have been achieved, which made the game better imo. But that is not a change to the fundamentals of the game. It's just a diversification of the champion archetypes so that each archetype isn't just a bunch of clones of the same kit anymore.

But anyway it's really bad when you're trying to improve at a game and then the devs decide to patch it in a way that totally changes some fundamental strategic aspect of the game. It's already hard enough to keep up with meta changes and balance patches.

If you really want to completely disrupt how the game is played on a deeply fundamental level, consider making a new game instead.

6 Comments

doubleguac1 votes

For example, saying that waveclear on midlaners needs to be nerfed or waveclear should be less important for mid... Look I get that the game needs to change and new stuff needs to be added over time, but there is no reason to change the basic fundamentals of the game.

I don't have the quote in front of me, but I feel like Riot was saying that waveclear has an inflated importance right now in mid lane because it has creeped so much over the seasons. It's gone from being a special strength to a baseline requirement for any champion trying to lane.

Riot has been leaning super heavily on waveclear as a way to fix underperforming champions, or smooth out overperforming champions. Like, they gave the assassin champions (Talon Leblanc) ridiculous waveclear so that they would be able to shove and roam. Ryze rework gave him more reliable waveclear. To try to lure brand back to midlane, Riot gave him mana back on E so he could waveclear more easily. They just buffed ludens so more champions could use it. They introduced minion dematerializer to help champs out with waveclear. Vlad and Malz reworks both got arguably more waveclear than they even used to have (though they always had a lot). Galio rework has ridiculous waveclear.

They've also introduced lots of champions that have insane waveclear. The roaming mids AurelionSol and Taliyah both have ridiculous waveclear for the same reasons the assassins do (and both have unsurprisingly seen quite a bit of pro play since their release).

So, we have a mid-lane environment where waveclear isn't a unique strength anymore. It's an absolute necessity to be able to function on a basic level, because you are basically guaranteed to be going up against another champion who can 1 hit the waves. And, if you are completely outclassed in wave-clear, it is really hard to leverage any of your other strengths. You can't roam if you're constantly shoved into tower. You can't trade if you're constantly shoved into tower. It's very hard to poke or all-in if you are constantly shoved into tower. Etc.

So, I don't think Riot wants to make wave-clear not an important strength for certain champions. But, if they reduce waveclear across the board, you create more time in lane where both champs are in their waves, which gives players chances to trade more, all in, poke, assassinate, etc. Instead of the current situation, where everyone just wipes out the wave in 2 seconds then either roams or runs back to tower and waits for the next wave.

Khristophoros1 votes

Sorry but the idea that it was not necessary in the past is some kind of fantasy. It's always been necessary.

Champs that lacked waveclear in past seasons were bad in mid. For example, old Galio was not viable because his mana costs were too high.

The best mids have always had good waveclear. Adding waveclear to more champs has brought more champs to mid.

Howerver Taliyah and Ryze are examples of power creep because they took over TF's role without any of his weaknesses. But that is just a balance issue with those champs specifically, and also has to do with the fact that RIot hates TF.

doubleguac1 votes

I agree that waveclear has always been necessary, especially in competitive, but the amount of waveclear that meets the baseline requirement has absolutely gone up. And it's also bled over into regular games way more than it used to.

Again, champions like TF, Anivia, and Ziggs used to be anomalies in terms of their waveclear, and they were picked specifically for this strength. I would say that this level of waveclear is now basically the norm for champions being picked mid lane.

The idea isn't that "waveclear shouldn't be a strength/weakness for any given champion." Of course it should be.

The idea is that there shouldn't be 20 midlaners who can all 1-hit the entire wave from level 9 onwards. It leads to a lack of interactivity. And it also really shoves out all other champions who can't do that, even in low-mid ELO (where waveclear historically hasn't been as absolutely essential).

If it was just a little bit harder for champions to 1-hit waves, you would create more time for other kinds of champions to flex their strengths in lanes.

I mean, let me just ask you this: do you think it's true that waveclear is higher now than it was 3 seasons ago? And do you agree that higher waveclear means less interaction between champions in lane?

Khristophoros1 votes

I'd put it another way. Waveclear is a strength that allows a champion to go mid. If you try to get rid of it people will just have fewer options in mid.

And btw, Anivia is currently very strong but historically she struggled to be relevant for many years. Ziggs has come and gone. TF has been a rare niche pick ever since his ult was nerfed from having global range so he's basically been irrelevant for 7 years. It's not like you're trying to frame it with those 3 champs at all. It's not like they slowly faded out due to power creep. Anivia is good for the first time in years, Ziggs came and went, and TF has been rarely played for basically as long as anyone can remember.

And how about another specific example: Orianna. She has always been a staple pick in mid even though her waveclear hasn't been buffed.

I think waveclear is only higher than 3 seasons ago on a few specific champions but not in general. It used to be a lot easier to build mana sustain on your first back and just start spamming without worrying about mana.

Maybe the difference is, vastly more players are aware of the importance of waveclear and as a result solo queue mid lane in all levels of play is played more correctly than it used to be. This is a common thing. The pros have been playing the game right all along and then when the mainstream players catch on to why the pros pick certain strategies they start to complain and say it's bad or something. Look, it's just how the game is played.

So like I said, new champs being added with waveclear just means we have more options in mid.

If there are specific balance issues they should be addressed, like yes a champ can have too much waveclear given a lack of other weaknesses.

Sasogwa1 votes

Waveclear has powercrept over the years, with both damage and mana issues. So Riot puts it in a worse place because it's too good right now, and the meta becomes undesirable because of that.

Khristophoros1 votes

{quoted}

Waveclear has powercrept over the years, with both damage and mana issues. So Riot puts it in a worse place because it's too good right now, and the meta becomes undesirable because of that.

No it hasn't. They just gave it to more champs so more champs became viable in mid.

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