The abundance of true damage on physical based champion needs to be toned down

taleofsonata·Jul 7, 2018·63 votes·14,930 views

True damage on ap champion is acceptable because they have to land X skillshots or have to meet the condition for true damage to proc. I don't even think anyone complained about Syndra W true damage since her W changes, nor vel koz true damage.

But things like Conqueror, % health true damage on auto attack Aka Fiora, Master yi, is kinda bs for an armor tank to itemize against it. Because they have to think about Mix damage champion like, . Their itemization become soo much crippled that they rather make AP champion obsolete because Magic resist is so strong against ap champions.

The most acceptable true damage physical based champion is because he has to auto attack to reduce his E cooldown.

92 Comments

DW DianaJul 7, 201825 votes

Maybe they'll add a true damage ap item? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

InfernapeJul 7, 201811 votes

Fun fact:- Conqueror used to have adaptive damage. Riot's paraphrased answer to the adaptive damage being removed was "We don't want certain AP champions to abuse it".

SpongebobIsLifeJul 7, 201811 votes

i.e Mordekaiser

KadexeJul 8, 20183 votes

Nah. Tanks. The 4 second ramp-up of Conquerer isn't a big deal for them, and they usually have % health damage built into their kits. The only reason they don't use Conquerer is because most of them are AP-oriented.

LordGeovanniJul 8, 20181 votes

I use it anyway when i decide to play tanks. as long as they arent super locked out of autos too long so malphite braum etc would use on rakan if he was considered melee.

DW DianaJul 7, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Fun fact:- Conqueror used to have adaptive damage. Riot's paraphrased answer to the adaptive damage being removed was "We don't want certain AP champions to abuse it".

Yeah, because AD champions don't...

InfernapeJul 7, 20182 votes

What can I say? Sometimes it's like Riot doesn't play its own game.

ModAcademy KaynJul 7, 20188 votes

"Abuse" you mean, simply using a mastery that was designed around them? Abuse is someone not meant to be taking it, using it and doing superbly well (Like Ezreal with most items).

DW DianaJul 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=0001000000010001,timestamp=2018-07-07T19:52:27.656+0000)

"Abuse" you mean, simply using a mastery that was designed around them? Abuse is someone not meant to be taking it, using it and doing superbly well (Like Ezreal with most items).

Yeah you're right, you can't abuse what is clearly given. I mean Vlad didn't "abuse" spell vamp either right? Oh wait... that was Riots words. Guess it's ok for one and not for another?

ModAcademy KaynJul 8, 20181 votes

Okaayyyyy, you're still not getting what I'm talking about here. For one, Vlad came after the old Spellvamp item "Will of the Ancients" was in the game. The champions that Will of the Ancients was designed for, were of a much older design than Vlad is.

Conquerers was made to give Skirmishers (like Yi) and Divers (like Irelia) a better Keystone that suited longer fights. Where is the abuse? Please note, that a champion have extreme synergy with something, is not abuse. It's called being too strong with the keystone.

DW DianaJul 8, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=000100000001000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-08T08:50:58.240+0000)

Okaayyyyy, you're still not getting what I'm talking about here. For one, Vlad came after the old Spellvamp item "Will of the Ancients" was in the game. The champions that Will of the Ancients was designed for, were of a much older design than Vlad is.

And yet lifesteal and deaths dance still exist for AD? Sorry but I'm still not buying this...

Conquerers was made to give Skirmishers (like Yi) and Divers (like Irelia) a better Keystone that suited longer fights. Where is the abuse? Please note, that a champion have extreme synergy with something, is not abuse. It's called being too strong with the keystone.

Oh cool, so diver like Diana....wait no, she's AP which is why she's missing the items and keystones that irelia gets....

Are you not realising that EVERY argument for AD to get something can be made for AP as well, yet AD exclusively get these things?

The fact that conquerors was originally MEANT to be given to both AD and AP, but was then changed, is a surefire sign that even the development team know that these things would benefit AP as much, if not more then AD, and are happy to say "Screw AP, lets just give this to AD instead."

ModAcademy KaynJul 8, 20181 votes

Lifesteal and DD: Still apples and oranges my dude.

And Diana is an Assassin. Say what you want, that's what she plays as.

And finally: AP IS NOT THE REASON CONQUERERS IS AD ONLY. It's because of AP Tanks, people like Maokai or Zac, who have loads of percent health damage, and innate tankiness to easily get those 4 seconds. No one gives a fuck that some Precision keystones are clearly geared towards ADCs, or that some Resolve Keystones are clearly meant for Tanks, but give Skirmishers and Divers their own Keystone And god forbid.

Tanks using conquerers is exactly the abuse that you're talking about, something meant for damage carries being abused by Tanks. Get your head out your ass. The Rune was designed for Divers and Skirmishers, and if they could make it work for AP, that'd be great to, but it didn't. AP doesn't need to get everything AD gets.

DW DianaJul 8, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=00010000000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-08T14:43:37.079+0000)

Lifesteal and DD: Still apples and oranges my dude.

Lane sustain gained through gaining hp based on damage done. DD is exactly the same as the old spellvamp items in all but one way: it only applies to physical damage.

Lifesteal is, and was ALWAYS the AA champions spellvamp.

It's not apples and oranges, it's Clementines and satsuma's; there's really very little difference.

And Diana is an Assassin. Say what you want, that's what she plays as.

That's what she plays as...because that's what she's GOT. Irelia also has the option to build the same items as Diana, BUT she can also choose to build the AD ones as well. Which one does everyone choose?

And finally: AP IS NOT THE REASON CONQUERERS IS AD ONLY. It's because of AP Tanks, people like Maokai or Zac, who have loads of percent health damage, and innate tankiness to easily get those 4 seconds.

%HP damage is more prevalent in AD champions actually. Also would love to see your source for this. Don't remember Riot ever saying this...

No one gives a fuck that some Precision keystones are clearly geared towards ADCs, or that some Resolve Keystones are clearly meant for Tanks, but give Skirmishers and Divers their own Keystone And god forbid.

Precision: Yeah, PTA isn't used by/geared towards anyone else... wait, no it was gear towards AA based champions, whether melee or ranged. But lethal tempo... no wait... again thats AA champions as well and rarely used on ADC's. Fleet footwork! Well it WAS used a lot by adc, and mages, and many other people in every lane actually. What happened? It got nerfed.

Resolve: Grasp...I mean yeah it's for anyone wanting more lane sustain and extra HP. Of course it's not allowed on ranged champions, but yeah, it's mainly meant for juggernauts not tanks. Guardian... Supports can be tnaks too so yeah ok, though few take it... Aftershock. Finally THIS is a tank rune. And notice how it's both AD and AP orientated?

Conqueror: Divers, bruisers, JUGGERNAUTS. Well it definately fits with that right? Once again Diana IS a diver (Elise was meant to be too btw), Mordekaiser was meant to be an AP juggernaut, and Rumble...Poor rumble was an AP bruiser once upon a time.

Tanks using conquerers is exactly the abuse that you're talking about, something meant for damage carries being abused by Tanks. Get your head out your ass. The Rune was designed for Divers and Skirmishers, and if they could make it work for AP, that'd be great to, but it didn't. AP doesn't need to get everything AD gets.

But AD gets everything AP gets. Because that's fair right? No bias there.... lol!

ModAcademy KaynJul 8, 20182 votes

You're original comment about DD and Lifesteal was

And yet lifesteal and deaths dance still exist for AD? Sorry but I'm still not buying this...

I was talking about how Vlad was using an item to the point where it broke him, and then you brought in DD and Lifesteal for....reasons? Your comment makes no sense in relation to the one it was meant to reply to. Lifesteal and DD isn't being abused unequally, it works as healthy mechanic (as in it works for a majority of AD champions) with maybe some synergizing better, but not to the point where the champion/item is nerfed to prevent an overpowered case (such as Vlad and WotA).

Fleetfootwork got nerfed

It got buffed to work better with AP champs ya dunce.

https://i.gyazo.com/21d9c5bc24b00001c199b362eecc7ca7.png

source

I'm still looking for it, thought it was an Ask Riot, but seems not. Likely a Red Post then, probably a Meddlr gameplay post or Playtest QA thread. I'll ask Pika Fox, he might have it. Even then, buddy, you got a source for your own claim about them making it AD only 'cuz fuck AP', or are you just making up a reason out of thin air that fits your narrative?

Conqueror: Divers, bruisers, JUGGERNAUTS.

But the Rune wasn't designed around giving Diana, Elise, or Morde a keystone, despite the first two being assassins by playstyle of the playerbase. It was meant to be a replacement to the old Keystone that used to give AD per auto/ability, since AD Bruisers weren't fitting very well with any of the current keystones to emphasize their strength instead of nulling their weakness.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/uHXiioEA-feedback-experimental-bruiser-keystone-conqueror

And for the Irelia comment, why she has AP ratios is a remainder of her old kit, that used to. Read here for why Irelia is still an AD champion, and works best with AD. Or maybe it's because she's an AD champ

https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/05/ask-riot-bilgewater-and-balance/

But AD gets everything AP gets. Because that's fair right? No bias there.... lol!

item 3027 item 3020 item 3907 item 3905 item 3157 item 3152 And plenty more AP Support items, if we're going simply by AP vs AD. So, they reallllyyy don't.

LordGeovanniJul 8, 20181 votes

despite not being designed around AP Champions i think its still broken on those who dont want to cry about 25 ad which they can still use which is around 40 ap for ap champions. I dont see why it was tried to be locked from tanks when tanks have suckish ap ratios but ad is still good for ones who arent locked out of auto attacks like Sejuani is. Its good on Mordekaiser (battle mage yeah) Not that he needs any help doing damage. Its good on Malphite Braum Skarner.

LordGeovanniJul 8, 20181 votes

It was designed around Fighters not ad champions. not Assassins not adcs.

ModAcademy KaynJul 7, 20188 votes

Bullshit. The reason was because Tanks were taking it, like Maokai or Zac, people who naturally stay in fights for a long time, benefiting them much more than any mage did. Get your facts right if you're going to complain.

LordGeovanniJul 12, 20181 votes

while they do stay in fight more than mages do for it to benifit them more than mages do tanks would have to do 5 times more damage on average. mages just dont like it because one it doesnt give ap when it does give ad while they would swarm to take it if it gave neither. and because its tree gives attack speed which they dont want to admit benifits them even if they dont scale into it. Tanks die too quickly for them to take conqourer.

Pika FoxJul 7, 20184 votes

Tanks, mostly.

ModAcademy KaynJul 8, 20181 votes

Hey, I know we know the same thing about tanks being the reason Conqueror's isn't usuable for AP, but where's its source? A Meddlr post? A QA PlaytestTeam thread?

Pika FoxJul 9, 20181 votes

Not sure, most red posts i see i see on surrender@20.

Lets have shrexJul 7, 201823 votes

Meanwhile you get item 1033 and are immune to mages

But seriously wtf is this hard-on on true damage by Rito ? Are they all stroking their penis when they see a Fiora dealing 80% of a tank as %hp true damage ? Or Yi deletting anyone in less than a second because he doesn't give a fuck about armor ? Or Yasuo already having free armor pene on his ult and now having true damage from IE really early and using conqueror ?

Warlord RhinarkJul 7, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lets have shrex,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-07T13:58:32.304+0000)

Meanwhile you get and are immune to mages

But seriously wtf is this hard-on on true damage by Rito ? Are they all stroking their penis when they see a Fiora dealing 80% of a tank as %hp true damage ? Or Yi deletting anyone in less than a second because he doesn't give a fuck about armor ? Or Yasuo already having free armor pene on his ult and now having true damage from IE really early and using conqueror ?

Let's go through the thought process.

True damage = damage that cannot be reduced.

Damage that cannot be reduced = more damage.

More damage = shit dies faster.

Shit dies faster = assassins become stronger.

Assassins becoming stronger = flashy plays.

Flashy plays = LCS.

LCS = money.

More damage = more money.

It's genius.

[sg-ezreal]

Lets have shrexJul 7, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-07-07T14:18:50.713+0000)

Let's go through the thought process.

True damage = damage that cannot be reduced.

Damage that cannot be reduced = more damage.

More damage = shit dies faster.

Shit dies faster = assassins become stronger.

Assassins becoming stronger = flashy plays.

Flashy plays = LCS.

LCS = money.

More damage = more money.

It's genius.

[sg-ezreal]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/455110895551381504/456863230434869279/016b95342df08af89b1736dbedbf7090.png

Warlord RhinarkJul 7, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lets have shrex,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-07T14:23:06.859+0000)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/455110895551381504/456863230434869279/016b95342df08af89b1736dbedbf7090.png

https://i.imgur.com/JlnWQcN.jpg

ApocalypsicJul 7, 20186 votes

Assassins don’t run conqueror and I don’t know a single intended assassin with true damage in their kit.

Warlord RhinarkJul 7, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi Im a Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-07T14:26:42.650+0000)

Assassins don’t run conqueror and I don’t know a single intended assassin with true damage in their kit.

I'd say Fiora and Master Yi count as assassins.

ApocalypsicJul 7, 20184 votes

Riot classifations would disagree. I disagree too. Killing people doesn’t make a champ an assassin.

Warlord RhinarkJul 7, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi Im a Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-07T15:03:00.433+0000)

Riot classifations would disagree. I disagree too. Killing people doesn’t make a champ an assassin.

Well Riot classifications also call Gangplank and Syndra supports so I'm kinda skeptical about that.

Then it comes down to opinions, like yours and mine, and that's subjective.

I can fully respect that you don't see them as assassins, but you have to respect that I see them as assassins as well.

Automated RivenJul 7, 20187 votes

no, just no. Gankplank and syndra used to be classified as supports in the old classification system because they were played there (and pre rework gangplank had an aoe attack speed buff and damage increase, which fell under their support classification because it helped {or supported one could say} other people)

However in riots classification system currently there is not a such thing as a support. for reference here is the list of classes and subclasses in riots classification. class - subclass Tanks - Vanguards, Wardens Fighters - Juggernauts, Divers Slayers - Assassins, Skirmishers Mages - Burst Mages, Battle Mages, Artillery Mages Controllers - Enchanters, Disruptors Marksmen - Marksmen

source https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

syndra would probably be a burst mage and gangplank would fall into a skirmisher i would assume.

And no, I dont have to respect that you see them as assassins because riot has specifically given them subclasses that they fall under. For fiora and yi they are skirmishers. Not assassins. They have the same class of a slayer, however they are not under the subclass of assassin. And in this case riot has the final say. Not you.

Warlord RhinarkJul 7, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-07T16:11:34.024+0000)

However in riots classification system currently there is not a such thing as a support.

In the "champions" tab in the store in the client, there is one called Support.

For some reason, they've removed Gangplank and Syndra from it. However, stuff like Nidalee and Kayle are still there and they're obviously not supports (atleast not Nidalee. You can argue with Kayle).

PB4UAMEJul 7, 20181 votes

You're a new player, huh?

Warlord RhinarkJul 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're a new player, huh?

Elaborate.

PB4UAMEJul 7, 20181 votes

If you don't remember the multiple times when Kayle and Nid support were massive picks (at several points Nid has been the highest pick rate support) or the years they have been supports and all the memes they have spawned, my only conclusion can be that you're simply new and unaware of what these picks were in more balanced seasons past.

Warlord RhinarkJul 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If you don't remember the multiple times when Kayle and Nid support were massive picks (at several points Nid has been the highest pick rate support) or the years they have been supports and all the memes they have spawned, my only conclusion can be that you're simply new and unaware of what these picks were in more balanced seasons past.

Well to answer your question(s):

No. I'm not "new" (as far as I'm concerned), I started playing back when Diana was first released so that would be in 2012.

And no, I haven't seen any glimpse of these, supposedly "highest pick rate supports" you're speaking about.

They aren't seeing any play as supports right now, so I fail to see why they are classified as supports.

And I haven't seen any of these memes either.

PB4UAMEJul 7, 20181 votes

You're telling me you played through Season 3 where Nid was the go-to "I got last pick but don't want to play traditional supports/don't know how to support/am an AP mid main" support and had one of the highest pickrates even though half the time they had no clue how to play support. This started all sorts of memes about AP "support" champions (even before Fid was played as a support, that happened later that same year though) almost solely due to Nid's popularity.

Season 4, Nid continued to be a high pick rate but somewhat controversial support, Season 5 she actually became quite powerful for a little while before the cinderhulk meta truly kicked off, but even then, when she couldn't top lane as effectively or jungle she found refuge in the support role.

She was hugely popular, quite controversial, and started all sorts of jokes and memes from all sides. i.e. those who played and loved support Nid; the squishy enemy ADCs and supports who bitched at her poke and healing (but mostly the poke. Great memes like "Just Pinkward the spear!" [a fusion of the "just drop a pink to counter Akali" meme, and the bug where her spears were invisible if she wasn't seen in the animation casting them]); and the salty ADC players who thought having her as a support was useless (even though most of the time the fault was their inability to lane without a support carrying them and holding their hand for 20-30 minutes.)

I am utterly shocked that you claim to have played through three years of this with no recollection of the events.

Automated RivenJul 7, 20182 votes

The old Caitlyn nidalee lanes. Those were the good times.

PB4UAMEJul 12, 20181 votes

Y'know, that could very well explain. I just saw it everywhere, but then again, I rarely played bots, and mostly played normal games/ranked.

Chembaron YamadaJul 8, 20181 votes

Your info is a bit outdated as well. The controller class is no longer split into enchanter and disruptors, but enchanter and catchers instead.

Source

Automated RivenJul 8, 20181 votes

ah. now that you mention It I remember this being changed. Thanks for the correction

SpongebobIsLifeJul 7, 20183 votes

Not sure about fiora, but Yi is considered an assassin secondary according to League.

TehNACHOJul 7, 20182 votes

This is largely because nobody bothered to update the client to the new subclass system.

Yi should largely be recognized as a Slayer in the new subclass system, either as a Skirmisher or Skirmisher/Assassin. The title Slayer doesn't even pop up in the client's categorization filter however, so we still have weird stuff like how Yi is also considered a Fighter according to the client.

This post by Riot details who falls into what subclasses. The 6 Skirmishers at the time of this post are: Fiora Jax Master Yi Riven Tryndamere Yasuo

Warlord ScrapJul 7, 20182 votes

Yis an assassin in the client per riot

Warlord RhinarkJul 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Scrap,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=00000000000100000001,timestamp=2018-07-07T15:47:34.013+0000)

Yis an assassin in the client per riot

Neat.

Just proves my point.

Warlord ScrapJul 7, 20182 votes

thats what i was saying.

DragonSheaJul 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-07-07T14:32:07.376+0000)

I'd say Fiora and Master Yi count as assassins.

Skirmishers, homie.

Warlord RhinarkJul 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Skirmishers, homie.

Practically the same thing, if you ask me.

DragonSheaJul 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p74s9jAm,comment-id=000000000001000000030000,timestamp=2018-07-08T11:59:58.009+0000)

Practically the same thing, if you ask me.

https://gifcept.com/LBsERU4.gif

Warlord RhinarkJul 8, 20181 votes