Curious about Riot's low counter play design

I NEED HEALlNG·Jul 30, 2017·1 votes·326 views

what's up with that? I can positively say about 60-80% of champions have low to Absolutely NO counter play. What's the deal with riot and the low counter play idea? As i love to study game design, I remember reading that a good PVP game has counter play available, but as an option not as a NECESSITY in order to survive a lane. Lance dominance (and in turn game dominance) in this game is atrocious. Some champs are bad late game, like teemo, but good early to mid. I get that. There's just too many champs that do NOT fall off, despite what many people say. If you're gonna tell me that yasuo is bad late game, then i just have to believe you're a fanboy and just see that as an invalid argument. most theory about balance is completely different once put into play. Why is there this low counterplay mentality amongst champions now?

20 Comments

ModWulf HelhammerJul 31, 20171 votes

Care to give an example?

I NEED HEALlNGJul 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Care to give an example?

In general a lot of counterplay is "stay under turret till 6" I don't think that's great design

Warlord RhinarkJul 31, 20171 votes

That's not the champion that has no counterplay, that's the turret.

I NEED HEALlNGJul 31, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord smilla,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p6rrgLMh,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-31T12:55:46.987+0000)

That's not the champion that has no counterplay, that's the turret.

What?

Warlord RhinarkJul 31, 20171 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Every single champion can stay under the turret until they hit level six. Does this mean that every single champion has no counterplay? No. The problem isn't the champion staying under the turret. It's the turret itself.

I NEED HEALlNGJul 31, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord smilla,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p6rrgLMh,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-31T16:04:57.936+0000)

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Every single champion can stay under the turret until they hit level six. Does this mean that every single champion has no counterplay? No. The problem isn't the champion staying under the turret. It's the turret itself.

I think you miss comprehended what I typed. You tried tho :/ A champion forcing almost every champion to stay under turret for 20 min is bad design.

Warlord RhinarkJul 31, 20171 votes

How often is this the case might I ask?

Pie CubedJul 31, 20171 votes

You love to study game design, but you probably don't even play the game, or else you would have just learned how to play against certain champions rather than complaining on here. The counter play to many champions can be learned, but the counter play to what I assume you losing against them is to get better.

I NEED HEALlNGJul 31, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pie Cubed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p6rrgLMh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-31T00:56:44.196+0000)

You love to study game design, but you probably don't even play the game, or else you would have just learned how to play against certain champions rather than complaining on here. The counter play to many champions can be learned, but the counter play to what I assume you losing against them is to get better.

What are you trying to say? Yes many champions have counter play and it can be learned. But that's a LOW amount of champions that have REAL counter play. Most counter play is "stay away you will lose no matter what for 20~ min". That's horrible design imo and from what I've been reading

Warlord RhinarkJul 31, 20171 votes

60-80% of all champions have no counterplay? Are you insane?

I NEED HEALlNGJul 31, 20171 votes

No, but a lot of the champions in this game doesn't from a design stand point in the Laning phase. The game forces counter picking in order to even play the Laning phase, which is horrible game design. You shouldn't lose because X champion wins against every opponent but this one and only Y champion (in that category). Maybe 40-60% thinking about it, but that's still a good amount.

Warlord RhinarkJul 31, 20171 votes

So what you are saying isn't that 40-60% of all champions has no counterplay, you are saying that champions are not allowed to counter each other?

I NEED HEALlNGJul 31, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord smilla,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p6rrgLMh,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-07-31T16:06:49.131+0000)

So what you are saying isn't that 40-60% of all champions has no counterplay, you are saying that champions are not allowed to counter each other?

I'm saying they have little to none. And yes that's fine that champs counter eachother. That's a given. but when the game is forcing you to play certain champs (for example there's only 2 champs that are playable against y champion) in order to survive the Laning phase, there's a grave problem

Warlord RhinarkJul 31, 20171 votes

Where did you get the statistics saying that you can only survive the laning phase if you play X champion into Y champion?

I NEED HEALlNGJul 31, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord smilla,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p6rrgLMh,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-31T16:59:01.892+0000)

Where did you get the statistics saying that you can only survive the laning phase if you play X champion into Y champion?

General comments by pros, streamers, and experience. Plus looking at champion statistics in the past I've seen usually for these lane bully low counterable champs have 1-3 counterable champions that can be played in the meta. That was a while ago, I should brush up on statistics, but looking at the cesspool that is the meta right now, I think it's an accurate assumption to say only low most champs per lane can be played, those chaps are low counterable ones, unless y champion is played to counter. Something is wrong here with this balance

I NEED HEALlNGJul 31, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord smilla,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p6rrgLMh,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-07-31T16:06:49.131+0000)

So what you are saying isn't that 40-60% of all champions has no counterplay, you are saying that champions are not allowed to counter each other?

Counter picking should be an option, not a requirement.

I NEED HEALlNGJul 31, 20171 votes

KloqdqJul 31, 20171 votes

I mean every champion has some weakness or trade off for their power.

Champions like Renekton Teemo Aatrox Darius will win the early game but struggle to find power as the game goes on. They are still strong but they are directly effected by other champion classes and abilities.

Some champions will thrive in the late game, kind of like Azir KogMaw Veigar Nasus when they have reached the peak of their power. They have the trade off of a poor early for their godly late game.

A lot of champions are on one end of the scale however and find power throughout the game at different points. What it all comes back to is the champions kits. Some classes are designed to strictly beat out others and each class of characters has a direct counter to another class.

The problem is when a character is too strong at a variety of things and doesn't have their weak points as open as others. Azir when he was good as too good at everything and never had a really weak point. Ori has safe-aggressive early game with a fantastic mid to late. Fiora could win early game easily and pop people when the game pasted a certain point. These kind of champions become the popular ones. They still have weaknesses but their kits hide the weaknesses well enough to not be as scared of them. I have no doubt in my mind every champion has some form of counter or weaknesses. It's the ones that find their way past that, that become super strong. As such they will typically get nerfed and then their weakness will come back to surface.

I NEED HEALlNGJul 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I mean every champion has some weakness or trade off for their power.

Champions like will win the early game but struggle to find power as the game goes on. They are still strong but they are directly effected by other champion classes and abilities.

Some champions will thrive in the late game, kind of like when they have reached the peak of their power. They have the trade off of a poor early for their godly late game.

A lot of champions are on one end of the scale however and find power throughout the game at different points. What it all comes back to is the champions kits. Some classes are designed to strictly beat out others and each class of characters has a direct counter to another class.

The problem is when a character is too strong at a variety of things and doesn't have their weak points as open as others. Azir when he was good as too good at everything and never had a really weak point. Ori has safe-aggressive early game with a fantastic mid to late. Fiora could win early game easily and pop people when the game pasted a certain point. These kind of champions become the popular ones. They still have weaknesses but their kits hide the weaknesses well enough to not be as scared of them. I have no doubt in my mind every champion has some form of counter or weaknesses. It's the ones that find their way past that, that become super strong. As such they will typically get nerfed and then their weakness will come back to surface.