Boards›Gameplay

@Riot: Bruiser Yi; Perceptions and Solutions

SkyblazeHydraX3··3 votes·700 views

Simply put.... what's Riots stance on bruiser Yi, and whether or not it's healthy for the game?

I'm gonna be straight with anyone who reads this, I'm biased as all hell on the matter. I don't like it. I don't like champions designed to be glass cannons requiring timing, prediction, and skill can build bruiser and basically ignore their intended risks and drawbacks (lookin at you too, Ekko!). Yi on his own is a very binary champion, in both playstyle and how people perceive him; he either carries or gets carried, and people either love the champion or want him outright removed.

But in my opinion Bruiser Yi just isn't healthy and something needs to be done. Yi's strengths are his mobility and high single-target DPS, while his drawbacks are his lack of utility and squishiness. Bruiser Yi turns all of that on its head, giving Yi tankiness and resistances while really doing jack-all to sacrifice damage, turning him into a juggernaut that has absolutely no difficulty getting within range of his target.

BUT, that is my opinion. I'm not going to pretend that it's fact, or that I know anything about the difficulties and behind-the-scenes of balancing a game as massive and popular as League of Legends. And I am not going to hide or disregard the fact that I am biased on the matter, because I have strong opinions on what a roles' strengths and weaknesses are.

But it would do me a lot of good to know what Riot thinks of this situation. What makes it incredibly frustrating is that this.... thing has been running rampant for quite a while, along with other pet peeves (Nasus needing just IBG to have a 2-3 second, 20-mana costing nuke, for example; Lux having a spammable, high-range, high-AoE instant-damage spell) with no word on what Riot's stance is. But just hearing Riot's stance on the matter, knowing it's either intentionally left alone and something I need to learn to fight or an issue Riot is planning to address, would be a big comfort.

But since redtext isn't likely to answer the question of this B4 scrub that only posts to complain, might as well ask the community. What are your thoughts on Bruiser Yi, and how do you fight it? Particularly in solo queue, when playing someone like Kha'Zix.

EDIT: Aaaaand Riot indirectly answers my question. Not a Redtext, but y'know what? I will take it! http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/03/39-pbe-update.html#comment-2560605544

24 Comments

Lauchmelder1 votes

My Point of view:

Default Yi (Glass cannon) is fine. Even if he does a lot of damage you could shut him down by CCing him. Bruiser Yi basically just ignores his biggest weakness (CC) due to how much HP and resistances he has.

The Problem is this: You can't really nerf the items because it would be a nerf to all other champions using them. And you can't really nerf Yi due to how weak his glasscannon build is. If they nerf yi first and then nerf his items he has been gutted.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

I agree. Default Yi can be frustrating to fight (I honestly wouldn't be opposed to him getting a few changes to make him less... binary), but he has his weaknesses and his shortcomings that can be exploited. Bruiser Yi is a combination of tank, damage, and mobility. Having any three of tank, damage, mobility, or CC is just wrong. Why I have a problem with Nasus but that's not here or there.

Sadly, this is a real problem. Yi isn't like Ekko or Kha'Zix, who can have their damages reduced and ratios altered to emphasize and require damage-oriented items. Yi is almost entirely reliant on auto-attacks, which is much more difficult to balance around- particularly for melee champions. I can think of a few options or methods of trying to deal with it, but I'm not Riot.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Melee glass cannons are useless in Lol. Only Trynda can afford to build like glass and he usually tries to backdoor or splitpush. In teamfights the melee assasins use their combo and then die. Yi is a DPS champion - he will output more dmg, if he lives longer. There is no reason to have ADC Yi atm instead of normal ranged one.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Except Master Yi isn't meant to be in the botlane compared to ranged ADCs. He's a jungler.

Part of mastering Master Yi is knowing when and where to go in; he's an assassin, so he mops up and goes for the squishies once spells have been blown. That's an intended part of his playstyle- he can't just go in and wreck face.

Bruiser Yi ignores this by giving him the tankiness needed to survive being CC-ed and focused down, combined with the additional damage from Titanic Hydra meaning he doesn't sacrifice his damage. When a build can give a champion everything they need and negate their intended weaknesses, that's a problem.

69469238DEL11 votes

He's so easy to counter, why all the crying

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hunted Horror,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p0cn2WVY,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-03-08T12:26:52.390+0000)

He's so easy to counter, why all the crying

Rather than making an nonconstructive comment without any explanation or detail to back it up, how's about you look carefully at the second to last sentense; I outright asked how to fight and counter bruiser Yi. I even asked how to do so with my most-played champion.

So rather than rudely disregarding someone's opinions and questions as "crying", how's about you focus on validating your own?

69469238DEL11 votes

Amumu, Jax, Udyr, Shyvana all counter Yi

A decent Morgana counters Yi, Blitzcrank counters Yi. I mean do I have to list them all?

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Okay yeah, sure. Let's assume those all work. HOW do they work? HOW do you counter Yi with those champions? HOW do you fight Yi when you aren't playing those champions?

Detail and information like that is what makes for a constructive comment worth reading. These are the questions I'm asking.

69469238DEL11 votes

Okay Shyvana aside those champions all do one thing. They stop Yi from auto attacking. Stop that you stopped him.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

You're right. They all briefly stop Yi from auto-attacking.

The problem is that they can't kill Bruiser Yi. All of those champions rely on DPS to fight, and they can't wear down Yi in the window their CC offers before he takes them out with all three types of damage, on top of sustain.

69469238DEL11 votes

You would need your team yes

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

And that's where another problem comes in. CC Yi and your entire team goes in focusing on him. Assuming it's a teamfight, then while Bruiser Yi is the target the rest of his team will retaliate. And because of Alpha Strike (which makes him untargetable), Meditate (which heals based off missing health and grants Damage Reduction), Challenging Smite, tank stats, and his own high DPS, bruiser Master Yi will most likely survive and his team will come out with a win. If your team somehow catches Master Yi out and manage to lock him down long enough to eat through his resistances, then yeah he'll probably die.

The problem is that bruiser Yi, once fed, turns teamfights into a lose-lose situation. Focusing bruiser Yi is like focusing a Wukong or Darius; you killed them, but their more fragile high-DPS teammates will have mopped you up. But if you focus said fragile high-DPS teammates while Yi is around, then he'll mop you up himself with his own high DPS as a result of having physical, magical, AND true damage.

And that's not even taking into account defensive items designed to deal with hard CC that Master Yi has ready access to if need be.

Wenderwall1 votes

{quoted}

And that's where another problem comes in. CC Yi and your entire team goes in focusing on him. Assuming it's a teamfight, then while Bruiser Yi is the target the rest of his team will retaliate. And because of Alpha Strike (which makes him untargetable), Meditate (which heals based off missing health and grants Damage Reduction), Challenging Smite, tank stats, and his own high DPS, bruiser Master Yi will most likely survive and his team will come out with a win. If your team somehow catches Master Yi out and manage to lock him down long enough to eat through his resistances, then yeah he'll probably die.

The problem is that bruiser Yi, once fed, turns teamfights into a lose-lose situation. Focusing bruiser Yi is like focusing a Wukong or Darius; you killed them, but their more fragile high-DPS teammates will have mopped you up. But if you focus said fragile high-DPS teammates while Yi is around, then he'll mop you up himself with his own high DPS as a result of having physical, magical, AND true damage.

And that's not even taking into account defensive items designed to deal with hard CC that Master Yi has ready access to if need be.

If Jax XinZhao have same build as MasterYi . Yi is dead meat. Bruiser Yi is not immune to death. Yi just never initiates a team fight, 1 vs 1 against Vayne Malzahar Fiddlesticks Fizz can become dead yi.

Most yi players learn this and build counter items accordingly. That said, in teamfights remember to save one hard CC (soft CC if yi has wasted his ult) and be on lookout. Every team will have ~2 real hitters/ burst damage champs.

If you are thinking that glass cannon Yi has low sustenance you are in for a penta surprise. Glass cannon yi does twice the usual damage so has insane life steal with Wardlords Bloodlust ( with patch 6.4 glass cannon yi can kill bruiser Yi, real problem is item 3124 item)

Doesn't matter if it is glass cannon or bruiser, gameplay is still the same.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Either way, Riot is evidently looking into making changes. The person doing so outright called Sterak's + Titanic + DMP "nonsense". Look at the link I edited into the main post.

Wenderwall1 votes

{quoted}

Either way, Riot is evidently looking into making changes. The person doing so outright called Sterak's + Titanic + DMP "nonsense". Look at the link I edited into the main post.

I haven't seen anyone with item 3053 +item 3748 on yi. I don't think it'll solve the issue. I rarely get hydra, all I need is item 3742 for survive long to do damage, unless item 3931 +item 3124 as a combo are not edited nothing much is gonna change.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/MasterYi

For plat+ and an above 10% play rate, pretty sure he ain't "easy"

Ship 0F Ducks1 votes

i personally think glass yi is better AND more fun to play. 2 in 1

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

I personally build glass cannon Yi myself, though I will cop to have building Guinsoo's on him myself. It's freaking dirty.

Commando Yi1 votes

glass cannon yi lacks the survivability of tryndamere and yasuo to be viable, this is why even in professional play when he does get picked up you'll see bruiser variants

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Well even if that's so, bruiser Yi negates one of Yi's intended weaknesses without sacrificing any of his damage, so Riot is nerfing it. Wuju Style is going to scale off of Bonus AD, and Titanic Hydra is having its base AD basically halved- while possibly getting an increase to it's HP scaling in a future PBE patch.

I agree that Yi probably needs a bit of help. To be honest I'm wondering if maybe he could do with some more thorough, in-depth work to make him less viable. But at the moment, Bruiser Yi is not gonna be tolerated. Hell, SmashGizmo outright called it "nonsense".

Kaokentake1 votes

{quoted}

Well even if that's so, bruiser Yi negates one of Yi's intended weaknesses without sacrificing any of his damage, so Riot is nerfing it. Wuju Style is going to scale off of Bonus AD, and Titanic Hydra is having its base AD basically halved- while possibly getting an increase to it's HP scaling in a future PBE patch.

I agree that Yi probably needs a bit of help. To be honest I'm wondering if maybe he could do with some more thorough, in-depth work to make him less viable. But at the moment, Bruiser Yi is not gonna be tolerated. Hell, SmashGizmo outright called it "nonsense".

i think bruiser yi will be tolerated

tolerated to the point of reducing its power to acceptable levels

a "balanced" bruiser yi will be tolerated. but the current "too strong" bruiser yi is definitely being nerfed. already theres nerfs

right now its winrate is too high i agree. mostly from the devourer + onhit items

this new "nerf" that they give yi will surely bring his winrate in line. and once his winrate is in line, riot will stop nerfing

and you know what? all this nerf does is remove 20 true damage from yi's onhit lategame. making him kill you in 3 seconds instead of 2 seconds

guess what. he will still be able to do what he does. because the playstyle really isnt unhealthy or overpowered. and it will have a acceptable winrate for riot so riot wont nerf it anymore

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Except it doesn't. Wuju Style was changed to scale off of Bonus AD, rather than total. That means that even with a slight increase to Wuju Style's base damages, bruiser Yi won't do nearly as much damage. Yi's intended playstyle means he has to choose either damage or defenses, and squishiness is one of his intended weaknesses. If he can build defense without sacrificing damage, there is a problem.

Kaokentake1 votes

{quoted}

Except it doesn't. Wuju Style was changed to scale off of Bonus AD, rather than total. That means that even with a slight increase to Wuju Style's base damages, bruiser Yi won't do nearly as much damage. Yi's intended playstyle means he has to choose either damage or defenses, and squishiness is one of his intended weaknesses. If he can build defense without sacrificing damage, there is a problem.

your point shows that it is being tolerated. riots doing exactly what i described

i said bruiser yi will be "tolerated to the point of reducing its power to acceptable levels"

and thats exactly what riot is doing. riot is "slightly" nerfing bruiser yi's onhit true damage. to bring its winrate to "acceptable levels"

once this nerf goes through, expect yis winrate to drop to a decent level. bruiser will still probably be the strongest build due to the nature of yi's kit needing to not die instantly

but due to the winrate being acceptable for riot. it wont be nerfed further but it wil still be viable. just not overpowered

riot will not tolerate a overpowered bruiser yi. thats why they are nerfing

but riot will tolerate a balanced bruiser yi with a acceptable winrate. as the build is healthy as long as its not overpowered

Kaokentake1 votes

i believe bruiser yi is HEALTHY as a playstyle

but right now its just too strong. thats the problem

i believe bruiser yi actually makes ki no longer binary. you go in, damage, use Q to dodge spells, W to reduce enemy damage when multiple people are focusing you, and you do all of this without dying instantly

the problem is i think this playstyle is healthy as long as the damage is a bit lower to compensate. but right now the damage is too high due to devourer and the new titanic+rageblade onhits for new items

i believe bruiser yi is a healthy playstyle, when its balanced. the only problem now is its too strong thats all. when its at a 50% winrate i think the playstyle is very healthy and dynamic in choices and counterplay

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by SkyblazeHydraX3

Twitch feels.... Unsatisfying
Gameplay86 comments
67
votes
A Minor Gripe about Fiora's Passive...
Gameplay52 comments
36
votes
So looking forward to ADC nerfs...
Gameplay115 comments
32
votes
A Champion I have new respect for after Morde's VGU?
Story, Art, & Sound29 comments
25
votes
Just had the most hilarious game end
Gameplay17 comments
16
votes
Riot was right to nerf Azir
Gameplay6 comments
16
votes