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Twitch feels.... Unsatisfying

SkyblazeHydraX3··67 votes·4,866 views

Pre-5.22 Twitch was an odd champion for me. I like me my assassins and I liked Twitch, even though I largely hated going botlane- too much pressure, too much volatility if things went wrong. Post-5.22, things have flipped over. I've played a bunch of ADC games, and... it's fun. Corki, Caitlyn, Graves, heck even Lucian (who recieved only minor changes); they all feel fun and they all have those high moments that make you feel awesome. But Twitch? Not so much.

In comparison to other Marksmen, Twitch just isn't effective. His DoT isn't all that powerful, his E really doesn't do much damage, his ult doesn't feel satisfying, and his Q reset, while potentially cool, in practice just isn't all that useful. Some of it could be blamed on the changes around him (Bond of Stone makes it really hard for his passive or E to really do much, and his core item BotRK got nerfed to being almost pointless on its own), but in general he just feels like he got left behind in the state all Marksman were in before 5.22. Maybe I'm playing him wrong for the new patch, but personally it feels like Riot failed to deliver on his supposed intended fantasy as an "assassin Marksman"; he's too squishy, too feast-or-famine, and... dare I say too weak.

Is it just me? Am I suddenly a bad Twitch player? Or did he get left in the dust with everything going on?

86 Comments

Variks the Loyal19 votes

I think he did get left in the dust.

The buff he got was cool. But it isn't very effective in his current state. What he needs is more damage from Ambush.

Maybe they could add a damage amplification effect on top of the Attack Speed boost? He won't be able to fight well if caught out or placed in a skirmish, but if he stealths, he can get the jump on someone.

A couple other things. I think he should be able to hold two charges of Venom Cask, with no Mana cost. It would no longer apply passive stacks, but refresh any stacks currently on the target. In addition, it would slow for more depending on how many Deadly Venom stacks are active on the victims.

Contaminate should have an execute mechanic. Something as simple as extra damage equal to 20% of the target's missing health. That would be a nice damage buff, and make up for the fact that it can be blocked by Wind Wall and Unbreakable (Which, pre-VU, it could not be).

SkyblazeHydraX32 votes

I'm not sure about something like damage amplification, since it's hard for something like that to be really noticeable or satisfying.

Two charges of Venom Cask sounds interesting, but the refreshing stacks bit is an issue; he can already do that with autos. Slowing more per passive stack though, that's definitely an interesting prospect as well.

As for Contaminate, I had the idea that perhaps it could make his passive more virulent and damaging. Survived the initial damage? Oh too bad, now you have a very painful DoT eating away at whatever's left.

Strixter4 votes

i disagree, as a long time twitch only player, his venom cask applying 2 stacks of passive is much more valuable than having another charge of it. the aa-w-aa-e combo is the only way twitch can trade in lane, and after lane the spell isnt nearly as useful as casting it lowers your dps after a few items, and having second charge still wont fix that issue

Mimaropa8 votes

Compared to graves and cait, that twitch combo would produce the same damage as their q

Strixter3 votes

this is true, hes weak either way, but removing the stacks on w would make him pretty defensless in lane. wouldnt solve any problems and overall nerf him

doombotMECHA1 votes

graves has way too much damage on q.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

It's all in the 2nd, extremely telegraphed portion of it though. I was getting completely rekt by it my first game against him but quickly learned it's easily avoidable.

NegusInParis3 votes

He got nerfed. Reset on Q vs 2 extra seconds on ultimate. I want the ultimate part.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

I think he did get left in the dust.

The buff he got was cool. But it isn't very effective in his current state. What he needs is more damage from Ambush.

Maybe they could add a damage amplification effect on top of the Attack Speed boost? He won't be able to fight well if caught out or placed in a skirmish, but if he stealths, he can get the jump on someone.

A couple other things. I think he should be able to hold two charges of Venom Cask, with no Mana cost. It would no longer apply passive stacks, but refresh any stacks currently on the target. In addition, it would slow for more depending on how many Deadly Venom stacks are active on the victims.

Contaminate should have an execute mechanic. Something as simple as extra damage equal to 20% of the target's missing health. That would be a nice damage buff, and make up for the fact that **it can be blocked by Wind Wall and Unbreakable **(Which, pre-VU, it could not be).

..W..Wha...EXCUSE ME? WHAT THE FUCK, RIOT.

Omiwom4 votes

Yeah he just feels kinda clunky. Imo his W is very weak and should have its mana cost and cd lowered, or apply a damage amp to those hit by it. Twitch has some complicated problems that I think Riot needs to look deeper into, and share their thoughts on him instead of just finalizing a change without explaining it. There was no explanation in the patch as to why his ult got nerfed.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

That's a good idea, Contaminate making Deadly Venom more powerful. Maybe make Deadly Venom deal a very small amount of %Health based damage? True or physical.

SkyblazeHydraX32 votes

For future reference, you can use the reply button at the bottom of the relevant comment. But perhaps making it true %HP damage would be more fitting for his passive. Really, his passive needs something to make it more satisfying. The damage isn't all that noticeable; currently it's just a medium to use his E and reset his Q on kills/assists, at the moment neither of which are particularly powerful.

Keevalroy2 votes

Expunge needs to feel like it actually does something, or at least give it some help in the mana department. Spray and Pray also may need a little help, I'm not sure in what way though. I'm still on the fence about the passive - on the one hand it's significantly weaker than it used to be, but on the other, that's still true damage we're dealing with.

I think it would be safest to give Expunge a small mana refund if it kills something as a start.

AIIan2 votes

{quoted} I'm still on the fence about the passive - on the one hand it's significantly weaker than it used to be, but on the other, that's still true damage we're dealing with.

DoTs on an assassin feel so wrong, especially with the new reset of his Q on kill / assist. You're supposed to sneak, assassinate and slip back into the shadow, not to riddle them with bolts and laugh at them while they're agonizing.

Keevalroy6 votes

You're supposed to sneak, assassinate and slip back into the shadow, not to riddle them with bolts and laugh at them while they're agonizing.

The problem is....that's who Twitch is. And to remove that would be removing yet another part of his character.

AIIan1 votes

{quoted}

The problem is....that's who Twitch is. And to remove that would be removing yet another part of his character.

I never said you need to remove it. In fact, I was thinking about moving it to W and giving some REAL passive.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

What would they give him, though? He's "The Plague Rat"; spreading disease and death is who he is. I could see DoT working on him in some manner, but more in a way that facilitated assassination.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

For every stack of poison they have, each of Twitch's autos deal a very small % (think like 0.5%) of their missing health as true damage physical damage, ignoring a % of the target's BONUS armor

So with 6 stacks, you'd be dealing 3% of their missing health every auto

If they're sitting at 2000/2500 Health, that's effectively 15 (woo!) bonus damage every auto

If they're sitting at 1000/2500, that's 45 bonus damage every auto

If they're sitting at 500/2500, that's 60(!) bonus damage every auto - that's like a free BF sword + 2 long swords at whatever % armor pen lol

It isn't much at first - if at all - but the lower the enemy, the more damage he does (note that to hit 3% of missing health, he needs to actually get them to 6 stacks)

This is just an idea I've seen floating around somewhere lol it seems interesting enough

RetroRage961 votes

I think it should be flat true damage. The league has enough %HP TD and I'm getting really sick of it.

Wulfy1 votes

That's who Twitch is late game. I dunno what you guys are talking about. First game back post patch, I went jg twitch, got a quad. Two games later, ADC twitch, and was 6/0 out of laning and ended up 1v3ing their jg/support/adc for a triple. He guns down hard late game, and it feels great.

Jacknife2 votes

I do agree that he could use some love, particularly to his E and passive, but part of it is the build path and what you rush first. I've had some pretty good luck rushing item 3142 on him first, decent AD and cdr, along with very strong dps added on. Makes it hard for someone else to snowball when you remove him before he even gets back to lane [slayer-jinx-wink]

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

I did another game, opting to rush Infinity Edge. I actually did exceptionally well. Still lost because our team couldn't group up despite the enemy having oodles of lockdown, but by the end I had something along the lines of 25/9/13.

Jacknife1 votes

Sorry to hear :( sounds more like the poor decisions of the team instead of twitch just being unable to excel though.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

This was the first time I had managed a decent game with Twitch, and even then it was still a loss. I had to have my support, a Thresh, practically babysit me through most of the first half of the game.

Twitch has potential to be the assassin Marksman they want him to be; Q-ing in, taking out a low-health target as they try to recall, and then Q-ing right back out is definitely a step in the right direction. But is it really all that special in comparison to what other ADCs are capable of?

Jacknife1 votes

I suppose you've a point, but just because he's not as flashy or special as the other adcs doesn't mean he's weak per say. My guess is they don't want to mess with him too much, seeing how strong he was back in season 4.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

He may not necessarily be weak, but in my experience he has two problems:

  1. He's too inconsistent. Disregarding edge cases like Graves (and maybe MF), all the other ADCs can work well if you've got the skill. Twitch has to be babied even through the midgame, where by then most ADCs have really hit their high points.
  2. He's not satisfying. Even if you catch someone out with your Q + R combo, you don't do anything interesting to outplay or combat your opponent; you try and use your autos and W to build up stacks and kill them with E. Even Caitlyn and Jinx, two of the most auto-reliant champions in the game, have more interesting interaction with their enemies now.
NegusInParis2 votes

Tristana is a better assassin than Twitch, atleast her escape is more reliable.

brad2 votes

i mean the fact that he straight up got nerfed is probably why ur feeling this way

Goumindong1 votes

Have you tried rageblade? The AoE on-hit will proc on everyone you hit with your ult, and the AoE size is pretty significant, making the combo do a hilarious amount of damage to an enemy team

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

I actually haven't tried the new Rageblade OR the new Gunblade on... anyone. Been enjoying Death's Dance too much on my assassins and fighters XD

And y'know, trying the new champions to see how they work and my usual ones to see how they fit in the new landscape. That takes time.

P.S. Stormraider's Surge on Ekko? Might as well rename him Sonic XD

Goumindong1 votes

You should give it a try. It won't aleviate twitch's weak laning phase, and it has a hard build in for him due to the blasting wand.

But as it stands, not counting the AP it gives about 4300 gold when fully stacked for a 2500 gold item. [counting the AP its about 6000 gold]. Twitch doesn't gain from the AP, but he scales quite hard with AS[fully stacked Rageblade gives 72% attack speed] and the on hit [about 30 damage when you get it in an AoE]

So if you're able to get RB fully stacked and ult through the enemy team you will have 54 AD + 72% attack speed + 150 damage on-hit [I.E. each enemy gets hit 5 times from the AoE*] plus Fervor bonus damage. From there you can build BotRK/defensive or more on hit for more hilarity. The key mainly is getting a good ult off, like always. But if you can you're going to wreck.

*technically you can hit more, since your ult can hit towers/minions. If you were to toss your ult through a minion wave and also hit the enemy you could do a whole bunch of damage.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Geez. It sounds like using Rageblade + Twitch ult turns every auto into an explosive chain-reaction XD I might try it with friends.

Teridax681 votes

Twitch's kit has a lot of power appreciation issues, imo, which is why he doesn't feel nearly as strong as he could be. His DoT doesn't really feel too good, and doesn't work well on a kit that's all about dealing as much damage as possible within a small frame of opportunity (i.e. right after you Ambush someone). Venom Cask doesn't feel that good at all (its slow is fairly weak and its Deadly Venom stacks don't provide immediate visceral feedback), Contaminate is alright, but could be made more interesting (it doesn't really induce contamination, much like it didn't really Expunge anything previously) and Rat-Ta-Tat-Tat could probably lose its AD steroid in favor of more interesting power across the rest of his kit. Twitch has the potential to be an amazing AoE marksman, capable of shredding both the front and back lines at the same time given good enough planning and positioning, but right now he gets too little immediate feedback for what he does.

SkyblazeHydraX32 votes

I'd honestly like to see what they could do to turn him into an "assassin ADC" as they tried to with the current changes to his Q. But yes, he needs much more visceral, powerful feedback. He needs to feel powerful when the player does something right, like so many ADCs and Juggernauts do now.

Poske1 votes

1 Word Hurricane...

Come back later with results

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

It falls under the same problem as BotRK, at least on paper; it doesn't give him the raw damage he needs to trade now.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

It falls under the same problem as BotRK, at least on paper; it doesn't give him the raw damage he needs to trade now.

Who said that you should rush huricane

GET it > GET hurricane GG ezy

Paress1 votes

There is an annoying thing is IF you waste your ultimate, don't dream of doing anything in a big teamfight

junglerboy161 votes

I think what he needs as an assassin is better reward for getting max stacks of his passive on a champ.

I have a few suggestions:

  • Passive: Upon reaching max stacks, the DoT deals 50% more damage (rewards him for going hard for a kill without buffing his trading in lane)

  • Q: Bonus AS duration reduced to 4 seconds from 5, AS bonus increased to 40/55/70/85/100% from 30/40/50/60/70% (emphasizes his role as an ambush/assassin style marksman instead of being a generic steroid.

  • E: Bonus damage per stack changed to 15/20/25/30/35 (+20% AP) (+25% bonus AD) x (1+(0.1 x (number of stacks - 1)). This looks like really complicated math, but basically it means that every stack after the first causes the bonus to deal 10% more bonus damage. At 6 stacks it deals 50% more bonus damage (instead of 290 (+120% AP) (+150% bonus AD) (live values) it deals 395 (+180% AP) (+225% bonus AD), but this bonus is only really noticeable at close to max stacks). This rewards Twitch most when he can get fully stacked on a target and nuke them out hard. Keep in mind this is Twitch's main damage ability, and for comparison, the AD ratio with this buff is still weaker than Tristana's E (which has a max of 232% bonus AD damage), and requires 2 more stacks to reach max damage.

EDIT: You could also make it so that using E consumes all of his deadly poison stacks and applies the DoT instantly. That would add to his burst a bit, but take away a slight bit of his DPS since he'd have to re-stack his passive again.

SkyblazeHydraX32 votes

I'm starting to think maybe giving his passive more would be a good direction. Or rather, giving his kit more. Give him some benefits to getting those max stacks besides the E damage. I saw a comment on here mentioning Darius' bleed passive as a template. Honestly, if not for the fact that Riot doesn't want any champions to feel too alike, I could see them adding something once you hit max stacks.

Kaeblen1 votes

So, what if Riot treated him like they did Graves , MissFortune and Azir: Just combine 2 abilities to free up a slot for a new one? I think it's ridiculous that this even happened on other champions, but because Twitch is currently so weak, it may work out.

If that seems like a terrible idea, you could attach a 20% healing reduction to his passive, an AS slow to his W, reduce all his stealth-fade times by 1 second, or other numeric tuning things.

Too much new power? remove (or reduce) the AD bonus on his ult, and change the damage reduction per target to 15% from 20%.

Here's a CRAZY last idea: have leaving stealth inflict Fear or Terror on all nearby minions. Darius got that one for free on his Ult, and it certainly fits with Twitch's Lore.

I love twitch. but he's weak.

SkyblazeHydraX32 votes

Hm.... perhaps playing up Twitch's manic plaguemaster side? Really reward him for adding up those poison stacks and spreading the disease. Say... the stacks leave a scent trail that Twitch can follow in the fog of war, with a stronger trail the more stacks you build. And maybe at max stacks the target could become contagious, spreading stacks to nearby allies.

Kaeblen2 votes

at max stacks the target could become contagious, spreading stacks to nearby allies

good idea.

Shonjl1 votes

It may be you tbh. I actually played Twitch a lot recently and while my early game is weak, which he is meant to be, he became a force to be feared. I made even the fed Graves or Caits in those games run away since they didn't wanna 1v1 me. Even I found that strange tbh. I would be like 5/5 while the Graves is 15/5 and as soon as he shot his rocket and missed and I hit him once, he did everything in his power to run away from me when he could have just auto'd me twice and killed me most likely.

Twitch I feel is pretty damn strong if you know how to play him. Getting him to 80-100% crit, Hurricane so it hits 3 things at once, healing for a lot due to that as well, and his poison from what I noticed actually hurts a bit now. It is similar to Brand's passive now I feel, like I actually can kill champs now if I get all my stacks up and they were low since I seen it tick for 30-50, vs before where it did like....10. Also his Q is even better now, not only was it a godly escape or initiate as well as massive AS steriod, but the CD resets on any kill or assist. I had cases bot lane where it was 3 or even 4 v 2 against us and due to one of them getting greedy and dying, allowing me to invis and get the AS boost turn the entire gank around. It is kinda amusing seeing a 4 man gank bot and not only fail it, but giving the Twitch a triple kill out of it.

All that matters with him is his Q, that is still his bread and butter. If you use it, you better make sure you get away or start a fight before it ends since you are vulnerable once its on CD, and against a Twitch, make sure to go in on his rat ass once its on cd, since he has nothing left to save himself.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

It certainly could be me. I'm not necessarily saying he's weak; I'm saying he doesn't feel satisfying. There's no real sense of a high moment like with the likes of Caitlyn, Graves, and MF. Or hell, even Ashe or Sivir or Lucian.

Shonjl1 votes

Meh different strokes for different people is all. Nothing wrong with not being too great with one ADC but decent or good with others.

I love Twitch and usually do extremely well on him and always stay relevant even if I lose lane very hard by farming back. I play Ashe and Caitlyn well too(Haven't seen new Caitlyn so curious to see how it is) But I know for the life of me someone like Vayne which I feel is easier than the others I fail horribly on, I could ADC Soraka better than her.

Shosuko1 votes

I was very saddened by their nerf to him. It was a complete nerf too. Resetting a delayed escape that can take 1.5 to 6 SECONDS to give a speed boost...?

This isn't exactly Tristana jumping back out after an execute, this is a delayed effect, a non-escape. Resetting it does very little to help twitch. The real change to twitch, with no logic or reasoning was the nerf to his ult time. I am really puzzled why they even touched him. He wasn't OP, or even played much... and yet they decided to take him DOWN a peg while simultaneously pushing other ADC so far over the top it's ridiculous -_-

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Riot means well, I have always and will continue to believe that. But Riot is made up of people. And people make mistakes, even when they have the best intentions.

Arch Mage Magnus1 votes

Twitch honestly needs a re-work, he is the simply an AA champion. All you do with him is Auto Attack, throw the odd toxic potion (which is completely useless around level 6) and try to just ambush people. It's not gratifying in the least using an ult and then autoing. He honestly has no fun or interactive gameplay mechanics. All new characters have so many ins and out's to their kit, but Twitch is just point and click.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

That's.... honestly pretty true. I don't want champions generally to be made more complicated or difficult to play, but I do like more interaction and individuality in each champion's kit. And Twitch honestly needs more to him. Even if he's meant to be an auto-reliant ADC, both Jinx and Caitlyn prove you can be auto-based while being fun and interactive.

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