Weekly reminder that the tank update left some champions too weak.

kasfas·Oct 2, 2017·16 votes·4,499 views

Poppy, mundo, naut and malphite are still rocking below 50% winrates an some deeper below 46%. These champs built sunfire when it was good, and now don't even build it anymore. Can we see some buffs soon? http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

83 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirOct 2, 201718 votes

Only somewhat related, but does anyone have any good ideas for an interesting version of Sunfire Cape that you'd be excited to use and play against? We've been slow to buff Sunfire because the gameplay it brings when it's good isn't very interesting or fun, and so it's at best overly niche right now.

That said, leaving it pretty bleh isn't the right treatment, and we would like to do something with it to make it worth its spot in the shop. So if you have any ideas, I'd be interested in hearing them. Buffing its stats or the damage of its current effect probably wouldn't cut it.

DaetnasOct 2, 20173 votes

Make it a Toggle/active for x duration effect that burns the user as well as enemy minions and champions.

BobaFlautistOct 2, 201719 votes

Give tanks another solid core armor item with less generic offensive capabilities so Sunfire can be made stronger and more niche.
Make it billow behind tanks like an actual cape, and make the damage ramp up over time on any given target. This gives it more interactive gameplay and makes it stronger defensively (as you run away) but weaker aggressively unless you get ahead of them. I'm thinking a shorter singed trail type thing shaped like a cone with the narrowest end at the wearer.

GuardmanOct 2, 201712 votes

Have the constant AOE effect become minions only.

Then whenever the character casts an ability a wave of fire bursts forth from the champion dealing magic damage to surrounding enemy champions. Put it on a two second cooldown. This way it allows the champion damage portion of the item to become stronger and more impactful without hurting it's ability to help tanks farm and/or push.

KloqdqOct 3, 20172 votes

This is probably the best way to keep it's niche as tank waveclear while making it more interesting to play with and against.

Linna ExcelOct 2, 20177 votes

Repertoir, you should ask yourself what's the point of sunfire cape and who is the primary user? I asked about this recently and I was told that it is a bad item for tanks who what waveclear, they like titanic hydra now, it's not that cost effective anymore, and the range is terrible.

So I think before we can answer this, it'd help us out a lot of we had a focus or goal of some kind. I mean I could pull chainmail + giant's belt + sheen = stats plus your next AA shreds 20% of the target's AR/MR... but that's probably not going to cut it, right?

Here's another important question: do you want this to be an aura item or not? Riot hates auras so it seems like removing the aura is step one.

+ = tankiness+ap+mobility for AP tanks and AP bruisers
+ = more HP, less AR version of thornmail
Delete and make a jungler's item
Have the passive deal damage to towers
Have the damage scale on your bonus HP instead of level, yes this is a damage buff, but encourages building HP and interaction with titanic hydra.
Give it a move speed active for a hard engage
You get a passive movespeed bonus based on the amount of damage you've taken in the last 7 seconds
Have the AoE damage and range scale off of damage taken in the last 3 seconds
++ = your AA do magic damage that scale off of your max HP. Basically an item for champs like shyvana, irelia, or Vi.

LańceOct 2, 20172 votes

that doesnt help malphite, nautilus, poppy survive early

Linna ExcelOct 2, 20172 votes

I understand, but without riot specifically stating they want something that will help certain tanky champs, they aren't going to get that.

Repertoir just that that Sunfire was uninteresting and can't be buffed.

HalcyonDwellerOct 3, 20172 votes

The question being answered wasn't about malphite, nautilus, or poppy.

It Hertz When IPOct 3, 20171 votes

item 3748

kasfasOct 2, 20171 votes

Firstly, have its radius scale with champ size so that it isn't an active detriment to buy elixir of iron.

Ideas:

It could have a larger radius and deal more damage to enemies the closer they are to the owner, with leeway range of maybe 75 units. This would make it better for the scrappier tanks and not as good for the tanks that tend to keep more distance.

It could deal more damage the longer an enemy is in range of it, like after 6 seconds deals 200% damage.

Not every single thing in the game should be concerned with "LC$ BIG PRAYS". That's how you power creep your game. Sometimes simple is better.

ThryaleOct 3, 20172 votes

instead of scaling with size, have it adjust with size. so instead of having the radius start at the center of the champ, have the "radius" appended to the edge of the champ.

kasfasOct 3, 20172 votes

That's what was meant.

ThryaleOct 3, 20171 votes

ah, gotcha. thought you were implying something slightly different. I tend to over think these kinds of things.

HalcyonDwellerOct 2, 20176 votes

Hey, just wanted to say it's really awesome when you guys ask us questions like this. The community is full of ideas and it feels great to see you listening to them.

More of this please!

DeathBurstOct 3, 20174 votes

I guess the first question is actually: what's the goal of the item? If it was more interactive, could it really be a "damage" item for Tanks? Or is that totally out of the realm of possibilities?

I seem to remember you gave ramping damage to Cinderhulk but then it was removed. Why? Isn't that a good solution for Sunfire?

(EDIT'ed to remove some useless blabbering.)

ModThe DjinnOct 3, 20172 votes

I've thought about this for a bit, frankly. I feel part of it is that you CAN'T have consistent uptime, and/or you need to reward people for sticking to their targets with it, rather than just having it always churning at the same rate.

Some thoughts. Note that some of these reposition it in more of a burst-oriented role, and some as more of a control-tank role.

Unique Passive: [Immolate] Surround enemies take 2-5 damage per second (based on level). Every X attack fires a short, wide cone of flame that deals X magic damage (maybe % health based) to targets caught in its path.

Unique Passive [Sunfire's Brilliance]: Nearby enemies gain stacks of Sunfire every 1 second. Upon reaching X stacks they take Y magic damage and are blinded for 1.5 seconds. X second cooldown per target before stacks are reapplied.

Unique Passive [Sunfire's Brilliance]: Nearby enemies gain stacks of Sunfire every X seconds. Activate to deal X magic damage to targets and blind them for Y seconds, both based on the number of stacks accumulated. X second activation cooldown (rather short).

Unique Passive [Immolate]: Every 3 seconds you give off a pulse of sunfire, damaging nearby targets and applying a stack of Sunfire. Enemies take additional damage for every stack of Sunfire on them.

Unique Passive [Sunfire Burst]: Fire off a line of flame in six-eight directions around a sphere, dealing magic damage to targets it hits. After 1.5 seconds the flames reconverge on your current position, dealing magic damage again.

SonicÐeHedgedawgOct 3, 20171 votes

I feel like the problem is that it pulls double duty as a waveclearing split-Pusher item AND an ambient damage team fight item and when it's good at both it feels oppressive and when it's bad at one (or both) it feels too limited to buy

Maybe if it did more damage, but it took a few seconds of exposure before doing damage there'd be more counterplay.

Like, you get a visual indicator on yourself and your minions that they are “heating up” but it takes a couple of seconds before they heat up enough to “catch fire”. Once they do, they take considerably more damage than live, but that gives you a couple of seconds to escape or push your enemy off of the minion waves before his Sunfire does damage.

ThryaleOct 3, 20171 votes

okay, so I've got a few ideas. first thing that comes to mind, and has already been mentioned by others, is a toggle/active effect. This will def allow for better fine tuning of the cape's power level, and power spikes, but I feel that atm, league hast too many active effect items as is.

So instead, how about something different? I noticed that ya'll were toying around with the concept to reactive effects with masteries/runes (i.e. after taking damage do 'x') so why not try that out?

For example, have Sunfire have a passive aura that pulses once ever 'x' seconds (let's say 3 for now) since the pulse is so long, you could even give a small vfx to indicate when the next pulse will be, that way the pulse can do modest damage. It will reduce it's effectiveness for wave clearing while not removing that feature entirely (cuz let's face it, that's one of the key benefits of sunfire)

now for the reactive effect: every time you receive damage from an enemy champion, the cape "flares up" and begins pulsing once every half second for 2 seconds, then over the next 3 seconds slows down to it's original rate. (you can fine tune these numbers as needed, and even throw in a lock out mechanic if necessary to prevent it from overly punishing opponents that try to all in) (also, you could throw in large jungle monsters also proc'ing this effect so that junglers won't feel bad about getting it)

IMO this allows Sunfire to become a relevant item again, as atm, the aoe pulse just doesn't feel meaningful as an anti-engage tool, and the stats currently are kinda lack luster as well. With the retuned numbers, and cycles, it gives both a sense of utility if used on an aggressor, and a sense of counter-play for those playing against it, as they can choose to proc the effect and wait out it's power spike before engaging their opponent while it's on cd.

Thoughts?

KoboldOct 3, 20171 votes

Some have suggested make it like Leona W which sounds pretty cool.

Why not have it so the effect of sunfire is after x seconds (im going with three for a decent number) of being in the sunfire radius the enemies are marked for 5s. Attacking a marked enemy deals X Damage to them. (10s - 3s CD before applying another mark) (note it will not have the passive burn effect) Optional have the item also have an active which can reset the effect CD once or causes the Aoe Burn for X seconds (3~5 would be good)

This still allows it to be used for wave clear but also makes it have some downtime in the way it functions and still be slightly offensive in nature.

QuephaOct 3, 20171 votes

Sunfire cape is more interesting to deal with than Bramble Vest.

That's not even hyperbole. Sunfire cape's damage always being on means that counterplay has a clear 'fail' case of standing nearby while not doing anything (cc'd or abilities on cooldown) that it can be balanced around for success with a middling ground of "if you are in range, make sure you're dealing damage" while thorns only works if you are attacking the champion meaning it has to be balanced to be absurdly strong if someone is trying to interact with the tank. In lane when you only have one potential target, that is absurd.

GizmoToGNAROct 3, 20174 votes

I play a lot of Top lane. The only reason I do not buy item 3751 (and by extension therefore do not buy item 3068 ) is because Bami's Cinder is a health item instead of an armor item.

What do all the struggling champions listed in the OP have in common (Poppy, Mundo, Malphite, and Nautilus)? They all rely on a shielding or an extreme health regen mechanic to sustain lane. Both of these mechanics scale off of their resists.

Minion aggro and trading are also resist dependent, making item 3076 a much more efficient item in lane than Bami's Cinder.

Even if you increased Bramble Vest's price to 1200 or even 1500 gold, I would still buy it over Bami's Cinder for waveclear and laning due to the armor it gives.

Taking what I wrote above into account, I believe it would be worthwhile to investigate a buildpath for Bami's Cinder and its associated items to be more armor-oriented.

As for Enchantment: Cinderhulk, it's strange that this is purely a health item to begin with. It's meant to be a Sunfire Cape for junglers; to be built primarily on tanks, which happen to scale off of resists. It may be worth investigating a nerf to the flat hp, adding some armor to the item, then slightly adjusting its health scaling.

Thank you for your time and consideration of my suggestion.

PyrofiendOct 3, 20171 votes

You're not playing top lane tanks correctly if you don't rush HP early. Bonus HP in the early levels gives you way more survivability than resistances.

item 3751 isn't a good rush item ever since the HP nerf down to 200. So what I do is rush double item 1028 or item 1011 instead on Poppy. On the second or third back, I'll upgrade to

SelegunOct 3, 20171 votes

I'd like to see what it would look like to strip off the flame aura and make it a bit more flashy. Maybe it could pulse a wave of fire when you activate the item? Would love to see the cape pulse damage every time you get hit by an auto attack or maybe build up stacks and then burst like a nova after being hit a few times.

Centerpoint360Oct 3, 20171 votes

Make the fire damage a single line, and rotate around the player, similarly to Aureleon Sol. Probably not a great idea, but it would allow the damage to be higher (for that sweet waveclear) while allowing more counterplay options for the enemy.

Maybe every 5 seconds it provides a burst of fire damage that does bonus damage to minions/monsters.

Maaaybe have it only activate when you take damage. (But then it gets close to thornmail in design).

Hell, maybe just make it an active: For 10 seconds deal bonus magic damage to nearby enemies, double to minions/monsters... but then it conflicts with the active of the smite items........

Honestly, just making it burst out every 2.5 seconds might work the best. It allows a bit of counterplay while still being useful. And a set damage time would make farming a bit easier too.

DeadUnbornOct 3, 20171 votes

AoE damage to minions and monsters lowered. Damage to champions ramps up the more time you manage to stick to them but starts falling when they aren't in range. After some "stacks are earned the damage and Area of effect of sunfire is increased noticeably until you exit combat

The Yetii RiderOct 3, 20171 votes

The appropriate action to take is to make changes to Poppy, Mundo, Sion, Nautilus and Malphite to encourage them to jungle and move them out of top lane completely.

No change that you make is going to let Sunfire compete against The Black Cleaver, nor should it. The entire point of the tank update was to make single purchase tank items less effective and useful. And in exchange, Cinderhulk has been buffed, praise be.

As much as it sucks, if this is your balance philosophy now then stick with it. Make changes to push these champions out of top lane and into the jungle where they are much healthier.

patmax17Oct 3, 20171 votes

What's the identity of the item? If I understand correctly, its identity is torn between:

waveclear item (and here again: is it for champs that already have good wc to double down on it, or for champs that lack wc to give them some?)
teamfight damage (since aoe)
dueling damage (this was actually moved away from since the damage was changed to be mostly on minions, but it's still worth mentioning)

The first thing that I can think of (and it's probably not a very bright idea, but still) is to use it to amp existing waveclear: when hitting minions with a spell, burn them for X damage. This would favor champs with aoe, low CD spells, and amp their waveclear/pushing power. I don't think Sunfire Cape is an item that should be taken for fighting champions (though I admit I do), especially because it's so uninteractive.

Champion SkinOct 3, 20171 votes

The main problem with this is at that point you might as well buy item 3025 item 3077 item 3748 which also give wave clear but is much more useful in combat with enemy champions or you could even buy something like item 3001 since if the champion already have wave clear then just getting more mana to use that wave clear also work just fine

patmax17Oct 3, 20171 votes

This makes a lot of sense actually, thank you :) (i'm not a top lane player, and I'm low elo even though i've been playing for years, so my insight here is limited) So, IBG and Hydra are both items that amp up waveclear but are a lot more specific for different kind of champs (spell users for IBG, autoattackers for tiamat/hydra). So this makes the question be again: what is the niche sunfire cape wants to/should fill? What is it for? I don't tnink it should be for waveclear, nor for dueling. Does this mean there's no need for sunfire in LoL?

TuplamelaOct 3, 20171 votes

Make it periodically shoot a gout of flame in one of the four directions (left, right, up down). Use Fiora passive indicator to warn both players of where the flames are going to shoot next. This way tank can clear waves by positioning themselves within the wave while giving the opponent a chance to dodge the flames as long as the AoE effect starts on the edge of the model.

Now you can tune a) period b) range c) damage instead of just a) damage you can tune on the current version.

Teridax68Oct 3, 20171 votes

Considering how Sunfire Cape is a damage + tankiness item, I feel it might be more appropriate on fighters than on actual tanks, who I think should instead have their own CC/utility valued instead on their own items. I also feel the main issue right now with Sunfire is with its passive, which doesn't convey its damage in the most interesting manner. Here's how I'd go about changing the item:

#Sunfire Cape

Recipe: Bami's Cinder + Jaurim's Fist + 800g (total cost: 2900g).
Stats: +500 health, +30 attack damage (+0 health and +15 attack damage from its components).
Unique Passive - Immolate: Moving and attacking makes the next basic attack Energized. Energized attacks grant the wielder 15 - 100 armor for 4 seconds, and at the end of the duration the wielder deals 45 - 300 magic damage to all nearby enemies.

The numbers and specifics are obviously placeholder, but the idea is that instead of simply dealing small amounts of PBAoE damage per tick, the wielder would build up to a powerful burst of damage over time. Because this would require the wielder to stick to the target for an extended duration as well, it would also encourage fighters to commit or initiate, rather than just inch out trade advantages in lane. What are your thoughts on this?

RocketRelmOct 3, 20171 votes

What if Sunfire cape (and perhaps Cinder Hulk too) did extremely low AoE damage to minions (the damage to monsters is essential for how Cinderhulk clears the jungle). Maybe even no passive damage to champions at all.

Then it got an active that you could cast on something like the cool down of Hydra (so 10-20 seconds), where after 2 seconds it pulsed out a wave of damage in a medium sized aoe. Gates the damage to champions behind a timer, and means you need to be able to predict when you can exist inside the minions with a proper reward.

Kei143Oct 3, 20171 votes

how about the burn dmg ramping up over time?

e.g first sec burn is 8 dmg, 2nd second burn is 10 dmg, 3 sec is 12 dmg, up to a max of like 8 secs or something.

numbers can be tweaked, making this burn the minions slower and making them a super threat if a team fight last too long. If they fail to stick on an enemy, the dmg ramp resets.

XxxLumberJackxxXOct 3, 20172 votes

Absorb damage taken, on active it gets released over 5 seconds in pulses.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

make the aura range increase with champion size
make the aura effect stack up over time in combat with enemy champions to punish squishies who arent trying to disengage out of melee range of the tank or fighter.
make sunfire emmit its damage in more damaging pulses in combat with bigger cooldowns between intervals to play around the effect (disengaging/reengaging) (maybe make it a spellblade effect with 4 second cooldown?)
make the damage scale with health of his wielder
make the aura 1 shot teemos.

just a couple ideas on top of my head.

SzGamer227Oct 3, 20171 votes

General theme seems to be "make waves of fire situational, visible and impactful". Rewarding a certain action or trigger with a billowing circle of flame that has a noticeable effect on nearby enemies would be satisfying, and shift it from being "you take trace amounts of damage when you stand near me" to "you don't want to stand near me when I do (this thing)".

This effect could be straight damage or a brief DoT, and possibly have bonus effects such as empowering the Sunfire-user's power against affected targets for a short duration.

UpDownLeftRightABOct 3, 20171 votes

Why not try to not make it a flashy mess of an item. Not everything needs to be eye catching, that's like saying the ADC items are interactive and fun. This design philosophy is really confusing and seems to be a hamper on actual logical balance in your headquarters. I suggest you abandon it.

Colgate GatorOct 3, 20171 votes

It could perhaps be a more specialized item. The fire aura could be a short window active, think of it like a tank version of the Hydra items. Either make it more damagey, or it could use the new CC, Brittle.

Nickfer2510Oct 3, 20171 votes

Decrease the damage to one enemy champion, but increase it as the number of enemy champions around increases (make it have optimal dmg at 2-3 champions). In my opinion, Sunfire Cape has 2 purposes: help with farming, and serve as a damage output in teamfights, and I don't think the item does the latter very well. The item should reward tanks going in the middle of a fight to disrupt the entire enemy team, and soaking up all the damage directed to their team. Maybe its stats should be nerfed to compensate for this, to make Sunfire Cape a more "battle-oriented" tank item.

SpoofghoulOct 3, 20171 votes

here is an old concept of mine i made around the time it's rework got announced

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/01bTEF5a-sunfire-cape-rework-concept

Short version 12-29 damage is now 13-30 still + 200% bonus vs minions same range But combusts after you get hit 5 times with a small delay and some sort of increasing glow to warn enemies and the co,bustion has a 50% larger radius then the regular burn Combustion deals 5x damage so up 150

Stat changes 450 Health 45 Armor 100% health regen

Less armor but some extra regen to help with early trading in lane

One of my biggest problems is the extremely short range starting from hirbox center rather then edge which means if your champ is big like sion or cho you hit them with basic attacks before you can so much as scare them with your aura range

Looking back on my original concept one could fix the aura so it's better on bigger champions, like tanks, instead of it being worse

Reduce burn damage further to like 20 but increase the bonus damage to minions to 300%

Then up the combustion effect by letting it keep the 50% bigger radius and making it deal like 10x damage after you get hit 10 times it could even have a health ratio or add a debuff etc etc whatever it takes to prevent abuse although requiring the taking of attacks already sort of does this

In the 1v1 it takes a long time to trigger so it wont add much dps or use there

it keeps the wavepush element

Early game use is back but at the cost of armor in that particular slot although it should give enough for the early game

It restores teamfight use as far as damage goes, the counterplay would be to not damage the tank and thus requiring you to play around them if they bring a sunfire Or you could simply keep an eye out for the combustion and avoid getting hit by it

So that would make it more interactive to play around

ofc the effect/damage would have to be tuned so it's not oppressive early nor weak in later teamfights as it would now have appropriate counterplay

DarwinTheoryOct 3, 20171 votes

Well since you say buffing it's stats won't cut it give it an additional stat, something like a residual burn on damage dealt like red buff so Juggernauts could once again make use of it. After all we are not tanks but hardy fighters. Give us Sunfire but wilth a little extra damage output.

Heck you're gutting our damage output with the run rework anyway which will push us further into tank territory anyway. But you never really communicate with the community what your end-goal intentions are anyway so maybe that's your end game. I dunno.

KaìjuOct 4, 20171 votes

What if it had a charge like Sightstone? For example, imagine you had say 60 seconds of fire. You can toggle it, and it ticks once a second for a set amount of damage. Once that 60 seconds is used up, it's just armor and HP, and can't be turned on until you recall. That way you have to manage it carefully so you don't blow it all on say just trading like a fool. It would have clear uses on champs with lower lane sustain since they back more often, and champs with high sustain can't use it as well like say Garen or Maokai. This would reduce its abuse by high sustain champs so that they can't just get it and permenantly add to their damage output while also having that built in sustain. I think you could then also buff it's damage or range with numbers tweaks, like giving it only 30 seconds of up time for more power or something. Or maybe even two variants, one with bonus damage to minions that lasts longer and one that's just a shirt ten second active that gives timed bursts of AOE? I'm just tossing shit out.

RødHåretDjævelAug 23, 20181 votes

you buffed Mundo's ult to get him back in the game. But did you ever think about it was a to Op buff?

hhaavviikkOct 2, 20174 votes

to be honest I don't actually want to see mundo being strong because of how insanely good his Q is

Chembaron YamadaOct 2, 20173 votes

Simple solution, give the doctor the VGU he needs and deserves so badly. [sg-soraka]

AbibyamaOct 2, 20171 votes

Can't wait to see poppy and malph outdamaging ADC while taking no damage

Also Mundo is a Jugg not a tank

InfernapeOct 2, 20176 votes

But his entire kit revolves around him building tank items. The changes also impacted him heavily.

DunkinNoobsOct 3, 20172 votes

It does if you don't actually think about what Mundo does. Build a damage item like item 3748 or item 3046 and you'll suddenly be much more effective at doing your actual job which is diving and killing enemy squishies.