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@Riot Why is %current health damage used?

Linna Excel··13 votes·9,793 views

I've got to admit, I'm not a big fan of this damage type being used in game. Or more specifically I'm not totally sold on why it is used in most cases. What's the point of using a variable form of damage that putters out as a fight goes on? For instance if it is anti-burst, can't riot come up with a more elegant anti-burst effect? I can understand %max... that's anti-tank. %missing? Finisher.

Why does %current health belong in the game? What's the main purpose of front-loaded damage? Why would I as a player want something that isn't going to help get me the kill or assist towards the end of the fight and keep the other guy alive, what's it in for the person using it?

item 3153 - This one I kind of understand, if only because it is an ADC item and they like building crit and armor pen. This is the most justifiable case I can think of, but only because of the main champs that get it have other ways of blowing you up: item 3031 until riot does the sword of epic badassery.

For an ADC, this item is compensation for all those times your IE/SS didn't crit to begin a fight... but ADCs are the main ones with crit so after them, I have trouble seeing the purpose of this?

item 3151 - when I see it ticking away on a minion for 1hp a second but not killing the minion, I want to cry a tiny bit. I want to say this is an item for either CC tanks or CC supports, but it's not really common on either type of champ. Mumu and Sej get it, but only at 8% buy rate or less. Zyra gets it too, but it's uncommon on her. Teemo gets it, but I can't stand that little fungus crapper. I want to say people like this more for the little bit of stats everywhere and the DoT more than how the DoT is applied. If you don't have built in CC, then you have to get rylai's and now you are wondering into AP bruiser territory.

Evelynn's ult. I am not a fan of her ult for a lot of reasons. The spell shield makes people want to tank as her. The %Current damage is weak on an assassin at best. This feels like a hard initiation ult for someone who isn't meant to do that but is forced into the role. Evelynn really doesn't have the base damage in her other skills she needs for this to be a good ult for her.

Elise's human Q. Elise needs a lot of TLC right now. That last nerf kind of splatted this bug-girl (spider-girl). I think part of her issue is her human Q feels underpowered to me and this is part of the reason why. She also gets Liandry's a lot so this is like a double whammy of puttering off. I can kind of see the risk/reward of this when you figure in the spider's Q and it's backloaded damage but right now, the human Q doesn't feel rewarding and overall elise just doesn't feel like she's in a good spot... She's the new urgot as far as win-rates are concerned.

30 Comments

RiotMeddler21 votes

We put % current health damage on spells when we want those abilities' effectiveness to be independent of how much health the target has or hasn't stacked and:

  • The spell's intended to be used early in a fight as a core part of the champion's play pattern. Xin Zhao's ult is a great example of that - % current health damage reinforces the message that the Armor/MR bonus already sends, rewards using the ult to make big early plays that split teams.

  • The ability's deliberately being made weak (or non useable even) as a finisher. Elise for example is rewarded with extra damage for going into spider form against weakened opponents, as her human Q damage drops off and spider Q damage increases. Evelynn's the more extreme example, with her ult being explicitly designed so that she can't get kills with it outside of her Q range and is instead rewarded for flanking a fight and going in as soon as things kick off.

  • The effect's intended to be strong as a softening effect, but drop off in effectiveness as enemies get worn down. This mainly just applies to poke effects, like Mundo Cleavers or Liandry's Torment (whether on poking casters or early into the fight champions). Diminishing returns against wounded targets means the poking player's got a strong incentive to eventually use more of their kit/have their team follow up on their engage. Additionally, targets of the % current damage get a bit of help if they're taking continuous hits and really struggling to engage or disengage.

  • We're looking to incentivize splitting hits between targets a bit, in a way that wouldn't normally be smart. Jarvan's passive offers a bit of this in that there are times when, rather than just training one target down, it may be worth swapping to another for the passive proc. A minor opportunity for play optimization under some circumstances basically.

Additonally something we haven't used % current health for in a big way, but might at some point, is as a kill set up mechanic. Imagine a support for example with a powerful % current health nuke, possibly even as an ult. Intent would be that they'd soften a target up for a team mate (assassin would be a good fit) to then follow up on.

Flemman2 votes

I always saw that kind of damage like the "Super Fang" of League, here to shred life by fixed amounth to allow carry to easily kill them

Mandaari9 votes

Why don't you use % bonus health for mechanics targeted toward high health champions? IIRC BotRK was introduced to counter league of warmogs, yet its primary use is dueling. More recently, DFG was removed because the % current health was just a source of more burst against any target. Using % bonus health, or at least a non-linear scaling for % current health, would have assured that these items are effective against health stacking while being bad buys against carries.

Linna Excel1 votes

%bonus health is an interesting idea if put on an item.

Jingerbeardman3 votes

what good is % bonus health against someone who has not built any bonus health though. where as current health affects every champ no matter how much health they have bought.

Mandaari2 votes

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/026/futuramafry.jpg

Poki34 votes

% Bonus Health is very hard to read. Enemies just have a lifebar. It's not divided into base and bonus health. You'd havbe to check the items on a champion directly. It's even harder to check that then it in armor / MR since those are listed clearly when you click on an enemy.

Furthermore, how do you determine what part of the enemies health is base and what is bonus? If the enemy has 1000 health and 500 bonus health, and takes 500 damage, does he currently have 0 bonus health or 500? If 0 then this created bad situations where you do crazy varied damage and don't know off hand why. If 500 then why not just use % max health with a different number? % max health already punishes building health and is much clearer.

Mandaari1 votes

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/026/futuramafry.jpg

Getting a lot of use out of that image tonight... Seriously, look at their items. If you can't figure out why you do different amounts of damage than you're missing a basic understanding of math.

% max health is effective against both squishies and tanks. If you're altering your build path to kill tanks then you should be sacrificing your ability to target squishies. It's the same concept as building MR to deal with a heavy magic damage threat. You're sacrificing your ability to deal with physical damage in order to deal with the bigger threat.

Kari Arisu3 votes

Using a meme image doesn't make you cool or correct.

What you said has nothing to do with what he said.

Mandaari2 votes

The meme doesn't, but common sense and the text below the image does.

He points out that % bonus health is hard to read because he has no way of knowing how much damage it will do. You press tab, look at who has a warmogs, and understand that you'll do more damage to that target.

He points out that % max health is an alternative, I point out that's it's not and explain why.

Linna Excel2 votes

TY for the reply Meddler.

Using ults as early as possible feels a bit weird to me as a player. I see your reasoning behind it, but if I'm not playing a hard initiator like Sej, at least personally ults are things I want to hold on to for the right moment. But then again, I play a lot of champs like Soraka, Ahri, Janna (love her in ARAM), etc. Even Shyvana doesn't always want to start a fight with an ult. On Sona I kind of like her ult more for peeling than initiation as fail flashing only gets you flamed hard on her (I've seen LCS players fail flash on her). In other words if you play too many champs that don't want to start a fight with their R, having a % health ult is just weird.

The effect's intended to be strong as a softening effect, but drop off in effectiveness as enemies get worn down.

This is why I think this is a tanky initator effect. You don't need to survive as that type of champ (but it helps). So you are more concerned with early damage.

Imagine a support for example with a powerful % current health nuke, possibly even as an ult.

Depends on the rest of the kit. If it's weak damage, heal, utility skill, I wouldn't want an ult that I had to toss out immediately.

Morgana's ult could be a possibility... 5%-10% for each part of damage on her ult if you don't want her going mid anymore. He isn't a support, but Amumu's ult would make sense as he's the hard initiation type.

I think that could work on a new support though and now I kind of want to see that.

However based on what you said, I'm not sure you should put it on the ult, put it on the Q and make it a spammable skill shot. I'm only saying that because as a support if I toss out my ult, I want it/need it to have a big effect because I'm probably guarding the carry, an assassin/bruiser who is low but can one shot the carry may not fear my ult if I'm the only one to properly react to him. People can complain about kill stealing all they want but I'm going to protect my carry and an ult that won't let me do that can get lost... winning the team fight and protecting the carry is more important that who gets the kill. 80% of the time as a support, that's what I'm aiming to do. Ultility mages who turn into back-up mids wouldn't be happy with that either... they want to finish off people now because they get strong when fed.

So for myself, I'd be more comfortable with % current health in the QWE. I also think that the core of a champion's kit is in their QWE so if you want a player to do that, it needs to be there. Going back to evelynn (still don't like the ult) she's a close in fighter and the current ult reinforces that as you said. So if you want % current on a support, start trying to put it in the QWE.

In such a case as a % current ult on a support, I'd have to be the initiator to want that and that's where things get hairy. _ I'm totally fine with initiation supports_ but it has to be clear I'm playing someone who wants to all in at level 6 and is able to do it well even if not fed. The other possible case is if I'm playing a siege cannon for my team. Maybe like a support form of Kog who doesn't finish people off on his own.

Still, I think this needs to be done on a more offensive oriented (HAM?) support and not someone you need to peel and even then you would only pick him if you've got a jungler or top who can peel.

Blackquill1 votes

Do you intent to create such a support someday?

Puri Puri Taric1 votes

Tarics kit is done right ? so how are his visuals going ?

El Dez1 votes

Since you're around, I've been wanting to ask about Vayne's Silver Bolts. I know they do Max HP True damage rather than current HP, but that's what's always bothered me. HP shred is a counter for stacking health and True Damage counters stacking resists. That means that Vayne counters any manifestation of effective health. I'm not saying she's broken, she has short range and the true damage only activates on the 3rd hit, but her entire kit consists of effective tools to deal with both of those factors. My question is how do you, a designer, see a person dealing with that? The easiest answer is hard CC, stuns and roots keep her still long enough to damage her. However, both of those are predicated on being able to hit or otherwise target Vayne (things she's very good at avoiding). I find it frustrating when a Vayne is ahead and there's nothing I as a tank can do to itemize against it. I don't have this problem with BotRK's because the passive is current health and both the passive and active (max health) are physical. Now I understand that Vayne has a weak early game and that there are things that can be done to prevent her from exploding. Within the circumstances of a fed Vayne, how are you supposed to deal her from a designer's perspective?

Sire Hippington6 votes

I actually have to disagree with you. I think current health is justified mostly, just item 3153 and in some wayitem 3151 lack good reasoning.

item 3153: It kinda fails as anti tank item vs quite some chapions as they profit from beeing low health, and it fails as an adc-item as adc mostly do cleanup duty, so wanting to finish off targets. Despite the curretnhealth mechanic not really fitting the job, it still is a very popular item with great succes, simply cause the numbers are massive.

item 3151 The %dot on spelldamage with bonus vs disabled targets is a great idea, you can either use it on poke champs to soften up targets or force tham away in a siege, or on the initiateing frontline to soften up the enemies befor your really DDs arive for clean-up. However, haveing it paired with flat pen, a stat that is mostly desiered by assasins vs squishy targets, as well as the fact that ap-champs have a naturall high upfront burst really kills that item as it has an identity crisys.

Evelynn Her ult is meant to open fights, and if you use it as opener it deals good damage, nothing wrong with it beeing current health. The shield on it also doesn't make people want to tank as her, the fakt that she needs to get into close combat and stay there with only walking as option makes people want to get more tanky, and her high base damage output allows her to stay somewhat effecktive while going tanky. The ult shield infact is what allows her to funktion as a squishy assasin...

Elise the idea is pretty easy, soften enemies up in ranged form and finish them in melee form. Back in her strong days, that worked well....to well. After numerical nurfs she's simply lacking. She needs some smaller rework that allws for more teamfight impact without an devastateing laneing/early jungle. Her main problem is that her effecktive range is short, she's squishy, her cc can be bodyblocked AND her damage is mostly singletarget, makeing her really bad in bigger fights while her still powerfull dueling and earlygame doesn't make up for the bad teamfights since the nerfs.

Strawberrycocoa5 votes

I am only guessing, I'm a scrub not a designer, but I figure:

  • %max HP makes victory mathematically guaranteed (%5 max HP, hit them 20 times and bam, dead.), so it's used sparingly on long cooldowns
  • %missing HP is, as you stated, for executing low-health targets, used on particular skills.
  • %current HP would give a damage source that shreds defensive stats, but only to a point where they become softened up, not killed. Once softened up standard damage skills then finish the job.
LankPants2 votes

%max HP makes victory mathematically guaranteed (%5 max HP, hit them 20 times and bam, dead.), so it's used sparingly on long cooldowns

This is only true when hitting a target with 0 resists. % HP damage is actually still more effective against squishies than it is against tanks (with the sole exception of Vayne's W), just slightly less so than flat damage.

Linna Excel2 votes

The effect's intended to be strong as a softening effect, but drop off in effectiveness as enemies get worn down.

Yes, that what I was suspecting as well, but I'm trying to think why a player would want an option you have to use as early as possible over one where you can pick your timing for optimal effect.

Goodest Gamer4 votes

thats like asking why does crit exist? no body in the game likes crit except for adc mains who enjoy 1 shotting 500 armor tanks.

InvisaBishh3 votes

I don't like the fact that Eve's ult has absolutely no minimum damage, like it feels really awful to not be able to kill someone who is running away with 50 health with something like Evelynn's ultimate, especially with the extreme cooldown it has early game.

IcyPepper2 votes

I think it's to soften people up for the finisher, or allow a spell to deal more damage than if it was leveled (soften tanks, one could say). Evelynn's ult is more of an initiation, and can soften up the enemy team and make her tankier for an engage.

Terchio2 votes

It's a softener. It's no coincidence champions who thrive with it are Sej, Teemo, and Cass. Teemo softens enemies with a shroom before pelting away, Cass sets your HP back a lot while pelting harder, and Sej just uses it to pelt a little extra HP shred to go along with her absurd tankiness and utility. Others will work well with it, too, but those 3 tend to change the face of games better than many other champions, and in a defined way. Other notable uses are Anivia, Swain, and I think Zyra.

That said, I do find the passive underwhelming, even on these characters. It can't thrive much in soloqueue because it strengthens as the team CC increases. afterall, I think they balanced it to be just good enough with crippling Team CC (Stuff like Morgana plus Leona plus Gangplank plus Varus plus Sej). A team lacking CC means it's not stacking fast enough, as enemy champions can burst you before that HP shred is truly effective. I think Teemo may also be ruining it for the rest of us, too.

BluePolarizer1 votes

BoRK isn't an ADC item. I haven't seen a non-Kalista non-Corki ADC take that in ages, and even Corki takes BT sometimes.

BoRK is a bruiser/assassin item that softens up targets for your ADC to kill and front-loaded burst.

MungoGeri1 votes

I find item 3151 to be very effective on champions that have a lot of AOE or as a way to deal some damage on tanks. On Zyra , it's great because every time her plants shoot, they reapply the passive, and if she gets a good ult out, the passive will get applied to lots of champions at full strength on each. For tanks like Nautilus and Rammus , I love it for the ability to deal a ton of damage while I sit in the middle of the enemy team tanking for my team. On Nautilus , I spam Riptide while I'm in the middle of the enemy team, which will apply the passive on everyone at full strength while simultaneously slowing the enemies. On Rammus , his ult constantly reapplies the passive on enemies. Plus, any enemy who attacks Rammus while his Defensive Ball Curl is up will have the passive applied to them, too. So, damage-wise, Rammus can taunt an enemy and have them hurt by Defensive Ball Curl, Thornmail, Liandry's Torment, Rammus's ult, and Rammus's basic attack. It's pretty devastating.

To summarize, I like using item 3151 on champions who can deal AOE damage to an enemy team to weaken them significantly enough that I and my teammates can then take them out.

Linna Excel1 votes

That's a fair assessment.

However, just for for the sake of the argument, how long does the average team fight last? I'd say under 10 seconds tops. How difficult is it to keep multiple people tagged with Liandry's for that whole time? Depending on the champ, it'd be very difficult and as they take damage, your liandry's procs are worth less and less nor do they stack (just reset the timer).

So how much am I really weakening the other team with it? It's a good item, but because it has variable and weakening damage, it's hard to say what it's really doing for me, at least as far as the % current damage is counted.

MungoGeri1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=orVFtG6N,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-04-19T15:09:27.471+0000)

That's a fair assessment.

However, just for for the sake of the argument, how long does the average team fight last? I'd say under 10 seconds tops. How difficult is it to keep multiple people tagged with Liandry's for that whole time? Depending on the champ, it'd be very difficult and as they take damage, your liandry's procs are worth less and less nor do they stack (just reset the timer).

So how much am I really weakening the other team with it? It's a good item, but because it has variable and weakening damage, it's hard to say what it's really doing for me, at least as far as the % current damage is counted.

In an ideal world, that would be 4% health x 10 seconds = 40% of every enemy's health just from the passive alone. Alright, of course it won't add up to that, because of magic resistance and the slowly decaying effectiveness of the %current health. However, let's say in reality, it's half that amount. That's still 20% of every enemy's health which is like dealing enough damage to kill one enemy - just from that passive alone. And then the +15 magic penetration and 50 AP boosts the magic damage of all of my other abilities. I frequently end up dealing the most damage on my team even though I'm playing tanks that are largely built using standard tank items.

Nichiyoubi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=orVFtG6N,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-04-18T02:13:54.933+0000)

item 3151 - when I see it ticking away on a minion for 1hp a second but not killing the minion, I want to cry a tiny bit. I want to say this is an item for either CC tanks or CC supports, but it's not really common on either type of champ. Mumu and Sej get it, but only at 8% buy rate or less. Zyra gets it too, but it's uncommon on her.

Uncommon?? It's the most popular item for Zyra. (48% of all games, that means it's as common as sight stone on her)

Linna Excel1 votes

{quoted}

Uncommon?? It's the most popular item for Zyra. (48% of all games, that means it's as common as sight stone on her)

My bad, some LOLking pages suck appearently.

http://www.lolking.net/items/3151#topchampions

Nichiyoubi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=orVFtG6N,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2015-04-22T13:56:56.341+0000)

My bad, some LOLking pages suck appearently.

http://www.lolking.net/items/3151#topchampions

lol that's odd, I've got the number from Zyra's profile on lolking :D the number in your link really seems a bit unrealistic

Nichiyoubi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=orVFtG6N,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2015-04-22T13:56:56.341+0000)

My bad, some LOLking pages suck appearently.

http://www.lolking.net/items/3151#topchampions

lol that's odd, I've got the number from Zyra's profile on lolking :D the number in your link really seems a bit unrealistic

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