Well, marksmen...it was nice knowing ya...

chipndip1·May 2, 2018·5 votes·1,181 views

Or rather, it was nice knowing the iteration of you guys that weren't perpetually getting butt blasted over a barrel.

Cloak of Agility gone
No crit from IE
IE more expensive
All Zeal items more expensive
Whisper upgrades ignore total armor again, not just bonus armor, to synergize with flat pen better
Base armor nerf, class-wide
Health regen nerf, class-wide
Assassins still exist and they're one lane away from you

I'm 132% certain there's gonna be many-a-marksman player on here crying their eyes out in a few weeks if these are going through...

17 Comments

BoltonatorMay 2, 20184 votes

I doubt they’ll be crying in great droves simply because they’ll still have their exclusive cs and pocket support.

I’m not ready to cry foul just yet*[sg-lulu]*

saltranMay 2, 20182 votes

I love you guys, supp players are the best players*[sg-jinx]*

JackMcSnipeyzMay 2, 20183 votes

So far only ones crying are everyone BUT adc about the changes so...

Teridax68May 2, 20182 votes

It should probably not need to be said, but the list in the OP is pretty one-sided, and rather obviously ignores a host of compensatory effects:

IE's doubled crit means marksmen will reach 100% crit chance with their current builds.
The true damage conversion, plus the switch to total armor pen (which is a buff, by the way), is liable to still heavily amplify damage against squishies, as mentioned in this thread.
Marksmen collectively gained more health and health per level, surpassing their armor nerfs and giving them more generalized defenses.
New Stormrazor item is liable to increase the one-shot potential of several marksmen, and generally just provides more options in a patch whose primary intent was supposedly to nerf the marksman class.
BotRK and BT are cheaper.
Various marksman-related AD items got increases to their attack damage, namely IE, GA and Maw.
As with Stormrazor, Hail of Blades is a Keystone that heavily favors marksmen.

So yeah, let's not cry over the death of marksmen just yet. Hopefully, this should be a nerf, but it should be noted that marksmen also have a lot of power to spare, as Riot themselves have now been consistently referring to them as far too strong. It's also important to mention that, unlike the mage and jungle updates, both of which have largely focused on systemic changes with nerfs purely in mind, this set of changes is much more nuanced, and features a lot of new content that aims to makes the marksman class more enjoyable. This approach is notably different from the others, and very clearly aims to help marksmen even as they're being nerfed, whereas mages have just come out of a set of blanket changes that gutted their mana across the board purely for the sake of pro play. There is therefore a different standard being applied for these changes to marksman itemization relative to those for other classes, and I don't quite think it's in the class's disfavor.

chipndip1May 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I should probably not need to be said, but the list in the OP is pretty one-sided, and rather obviously ignores a host of compensatory effects:

IE's doubled crit means marksmen will reach 100% crit chance with their current builds.

IE gets doubled crit chance...but doesn't offer crit itself. It'd take longer to reach that realization, and when you do, you don't get the 250% crits, but instead your regular crit ignores 20% of the enemy's resistances. This is a massive net nerf. The item by itself is purely 80 AD. It needs an extra 1300 gold investment just to even function right 30% of the time.

The true damage conversion, plus the switch to total armor pen (which is a buff, by the way), is liable to still heavily amplify damage against squishies, as mentioned in this thread.

The point is that it takes significantly longer to reach these things. All the midway points in a marksman's build are severely nerfed up until this point.

Also, people are calling out the guy that even made the post on his math...

Marksmen collectively gained more health and health per level, surpassing their armor nerfs and giving them more generalized defenses.

The early game nerf is the point. It helps people overtake them early and keep them down.

New Stormrazor item is liable to increase the one-shot potential of several marksmen, and generally just provides more options in a patch whose primary intent was supposedly to nerf the marksman class.

Yeah, it's a front-load item or a steroid item. They're delaying spikes and breaking up item synergy. They're also adding something to bring relevance to casting marksmen like Lucian and Quinn. If you rush this item, though, you still have 0 crit, save the guaranteed one.

You also aren't counting that AD assassins, their main counter, wants this to stab their faces through. Rengar? Zed? Talon? A guaranteed double damage AA within their rotations is devastating to a squishy.

BotRK and BT are cheaper.

And?

Various marksman-related AD items got increases to their attack damage, namely IE, GA and Maw.

And are price bumped so they can't reach them as quickly. Also, marksmen don't like Maw that much if we're being honest.

As with Stormrazor, Hail of Blades is a Keystone that heavily favors marksmen.

I mean, fine?

You're missing the point on a few things when it comes to power curve vs. end game power. Riot isn't trying to remove marksmen from the game. They're trying to make them exploitable so someone else will be considered in their position. These nerfs are power curve nerfs.

Teridax68May 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

IE gets doubled crit chance...but doesn't offer crit itself. It'd take longer to reach that realization, and when you do, you don't get the 250% crits, but instead your regular crit ignores 20% of the enemy's resistances. This is a massive net nerf. The item by itself is purely 80 AD. It needs an extra 1300 gold investment just to even function right 30% of the time.

It certainly has you take longer to scale, but the net result is still more crit chance with the same builds as now. I also invite you to read that other thread, which does the math pointing out that marksman damage is unlikely to suffer with these changes, even against squishies. Did you actually read the thread?

{quoted}

The point is that it takes significantly longer to reach these things. All the midway points in a marksman's build are severely nerfed up until this point.

Oh no, a carry needs actual time to scale to late-game. Do you genuinely believe reaching late-game mode with two items is a healthy way to go on a carry class? Are you aware that marksmen were still mandatory to the game before that started happening?

{quoted}

Also, people are calling out the guy that even made the post on his math...

People disliking the math and the math being wrong are two different things. Did you actually do the math? If so, why not point out your own issues with it here, using your own words, instead of simply referring to the opinions of other people? Even if you don't want to produce reasoning of your own, why not at least point to someone else's counter-reasoning? Math is math, not a contest of opinion.

{quoted}

The early game nerf is the point. It helps people overtake them early and keep them down.

And this is a bad thing... why? The game does not end at the laning phase, and these changes still result in a net increase in overall power for marksmen as the game progresses, including at a point where they're already far stronger than any other class. Do you really believe a carry champion has to be strong early, or ramp up to carry mode with two items, just to be viable? Two items is not an exaggeration, by the way, Riot Axes said as much in his post on the marksman changes, and several developers have used the same expression before.

{quoted}

Yeah, it's a front-load item or a steroid item.

... in an environment where front-loaded damage is already causing a lot of problems when in the hands of certain champions, notably marksmen. Statikk Shiv is already a problematic item when it contributes to 1k+ raw damage on initial hits.

{quoted}

They're delaying spikes and breaking up item synergy.

For sure, Riot is delaying power spikes on marksmen, but breaking up item synergy? I don't think so. For sure, Essence Reaver and Stormrazor both don't synergize with crit anymore, but IE is still a prime crit synergy item, and all of these items still provide synergy between AD and attack speed, more so than before.

{quoted}

They're also adding something to bring relevance to casting marksmen like Lucian and Quinn. If you rush this item, though, you still have 0 crit, save the guaranteed one.

Again, how exactly is the opening up and facilitation of alternate build paths a nerf?

{quoted}

You also aren't counting that AD assassins, their main counter, wants this to stab their faces through. Rengar? Zed? Talon? A guaranteed double damage AA within their rotations is devastating to a squishy.

Sure, it's definitely a buff to AD assassins, and I suspect that particular subset of champions is going to go nuts after these changes. You are also demonstrating an exceedingly narrow view of the game, where marksmen are the only class worth balancing around. By this same rationale, these buffs to AD assassins are also a nerf to mages, AP assassins, even fighters and tanks, who will struggle to counter-itemize against all of this penetration, so how exactly is this a nerf to marksmen specifically?

{quoted}

And?

The items are cheaper and retain the same power? It's a buff? Plus BotRK will become even more desirable in an environment with much more armor pen? Is that not obvious?

{quoted}

And are price bumped so they can't reach them as quickly.

Maw did not receive a price increase, and GA isn't a rush item. For sure, marksmen are receiving price increases to their itemization, but that is entirely justified when considering how their itemization was among the cheapest in the game for a damage class, in addition to being among the most stat-heavy. Do you not remember the times when marksman itemization was literally the most expensive in the game? Spoiler alert, the class did just fine then.

{quoted}

Also, marksmen don't like Maw that much if we're being honest.

Then why is Maw being changed for the second time specifically in view of a marksman-centric changelist? It may not be the most popular marksman item around, but it is still an efficient counter item for marksmen to purchase against AP champions.

{quoted}

I mean, fine?

You're missing the point on a few things when it comes to power curve vs. end game power. Riot isn't trying to remove marksmen from the game. They're trying to make them exploitable so someone else will be considered in their position. These nerfs are power curve nerfs.

At no point did I imply Riot was trying to remove marksmen from the game. It is in fact you who made that hyperbolic insinuation in your very title to this thread, and one of the many flaws in your OP that deserve to be challenged. Moreover, trying to shift the goalposts to this argument does nothing to disprove the fact that these marksman "nerfs", in fact, feature a whole lot of buffs, a fact you very deliberately tried to hide with your biased list. It is insulting to the intelligence of any reader to formulate such an obviously cherry-picked argument, and this kind of tired rhetorical tactic kills intelligent discussion for the sake of a few upvotes (which, thankfully, you have failed to obtain). Marksmen will certainly be weaker early, but they will be even stronger late, and it is this kind of power shift that is likely to make them less likely to be challenged bot lane, not more. No class can currently carry as hard as a marksman, and even carries from other classes cannot do so as consistently, or with the same support from their team. This entire thread is founded upon pure, knee-jerk complaining without any real attention to the changes being made or the intent behind them, and so in utter ignorance of the game's history, where marksmen have always been mandatory even with more expensive items, and an even later power curve.

chipndip1May 2, 20181 votes

I'm not responding to this whole thing outside of read the italics in the last sentence again. There's more than one way to nerf itemization. Outside of that, you do you.

Teridax68May 2, 20181 votes

Except if you had actually read my post, or at least the last paragraph, you would have found the answer to your point already. Of course marksmen are getting nerfs to the speed at which they'll scale, that was never in question. My point is that marksmen will still be the strongest carries in the game, will have even more itemization options (Axes is concerned that Jhin may come out too strong with Stormrazor, for example), and contrarily to your original post, are not receiving exclusively nerfs, or even exceptionally harsh nerfs. Marksmen will still have cheaper overall itemization and more stats than they had prior to Preseason 6, so pretending that this change will somehow knock them out of viability is ridiculous.

TempName74814May 2, 20182 votes

probably would've been better to nerf supports

supports break adc

chipndip1May 2, 20181 votes

Boi, I don't make marksmen burst someone in 3 autos.

Sona PingMay 2, 20181 votes

You don't, the higher damage everywhere and players' refusal to buy defensive items, regardless of the game state, is why people are getting quote-unquote bursted in everybody's games and complaining everywhere.

If "botlane's impact in the game" is too high, then supports being too strong would have something to do with it, because Riot decided a while ago that the best way to make people want to play them is through overpowering them.

RexxieeMay 2, 20182 votes

Crit adcs are completely dead with this.

Next patch is basically assassins + lucian abusing stormrazor.

Adc in 2018 LUL is back boys.

MizayaMay 2, 20182 votes

From what I've calculated at full build Marksmen are actually stronger against: -Low health low armor targets -High health targets with high armor (265+)

In terms of raw DPS.

What's left to consider though is how their power curve changes, how long it'll take to get to each point of power, the potential of non-crit adcs being able to dominate crit adcs in the early-mid game, etc. All of which could potentially be bad for crit.

PopcornBunniMay 2, 20182 votes

Good riddance. Marksmen have been dictating the game for 4 years. It's about time they finally get hit with more than a slap on the wrist.

RexxieeMay 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Good riddance. Marksmen have been dictating the game for 4 years. It's about time they finally get hit with more than a slap on the wrist.

If you replaced adc with tanks then you'd have a point.

haaaaaaalpMay 2, 20181 votes

I don't see any of the changes really changing the fact that marksmen will remain one of the only archetypes to be required on every team. We have seen far greater variation in itemization and meta over the past 7 and a half seasons and none of them (outside of that one time pre-season black cleaver was bugged and stacked with itself) was able to change the fact that every team needed to build around having a marksmen.