Interesting, Teemo neither seems to be played nor hated to the extent he use to.

Risen29·Mar 27, 2018·29 votes·3,969 views

He use to be everywhere. Hated by enemies because of his deadly mushrooms. Hated by his teammates because half the teemos didn't seem to know how to do anything useflul other than just place mushrooms.

But that meme seems to be dead, killed by all the changes to mushrooms. They are no longer a terror, merely an annoyance that prevents you from chasing down teemo. They might occasionally kill you while low, but usually the damage is shrugged off. Tanks are known to just run through your entire territory with the goal of taking out as many mushrooms as they can by running into them, knowing they will likely only tickle - even if teemo is max AP.

107 Comments

Zero ShingetsuMar 27, 201851 votes

There are so many other champions to hate right now that no one really cares about Teemo anymore, it seems.

SEKAIMar 27, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=omgYj6uW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-03-27T01:20:51.620+0000)

There are so many other champions to hate right now that no one really cares about Teemo anymore, it seems.

Basically.

The game has too many cancers since then, Teemo now takes a backseat.

FilDaFunkMar 27, 20188 votes

The cancer is spreading, then?

GorantharonMar 27, 20182 votes

As it often does.

ThefrostyvikingMar 27, 20187 votes

The original spot was suppressed but it could not be contained.

Head ConnoisseurMar 27, 201816 votes

It's because his kit is pretty garbage. 90% of new champions have ways to either fight him or farm in a lane with him that a lot of the old champions didn't have back when he was hated.

Risen29Mar 27, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=The OP Potato,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=omgYj6uW,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-03-27T02:38:28.415+0000)

It's because his kit is pretty garbage. 90% of new champions have ways to either fight him or farm in a lane with him that a lot of the old champions didn't have back when he was hated.

His popularity took a nosedive right after they reworked his mushrooms. The patch notes even confirm that when they started to buff him in response. The drop in this not due to a few new champions that started dominating the top.

Mushrooms have taken a massive hit in damage as time went on. They use to be about base 700 damage with 80% AP scaling at max rank. Now they are 450 base damage at 50% AP scaling. The damage difference is massive.

HalcyonDwellerMar 27, 20183 votes

{quoted}

His popularity took a nosedive right after they reworked his mushrooms. The patch notes even confirm that when they started to buff him in response. The drop in this not due to a few new champions that started dominating the top.

Mushrooms have taken a massive hit in damage as time went on. They use to be about base 700 damage with 80% AP scaling at max rank. Now they are 450 base damage at 50% AP scaling. The damage difference is massive.

I mean, good! There was nothing fair or fun about walking around the map between objectives and having no way to know whether or not you were about to step on something that could literally take you out of the fucking game until you recall.

Avios1Mar 27, 20183 votes

item 2055 item 3147 item 3364 item 3341 .....

HalcyonDwellerMar 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

.....

yeah let me waste these things in the middle of the jungle instead of on objectives where my team actually needs to use them for vision control.

No offense, but that's not a valid solution.

5000000000000000Mar 27, 20183 votes

It remains true that his ultimate got a lot of new counterplay options, which is an indirect nerf to his shrooms. Add direct nerfs on top as well (especially the shroom duration), and no wonder why he's underplayed.

HalcyonDwellerMar 27, 20183 votes

I'm fine with him getting buffs, as long as players are given better counterplay against his shrooms.

Walking around and having no choice but to pray that you're not about to step on one is not an acceptable experience. Not having any way to tell without wasting important tools is not acceptable.

5000000000000000Mar 28, 20181 votes

That's fair. Maybe adding a delay to the detonation, combined with an initial slow? Somewhat like Jhin traps with bigger radius, now that I think about it. Or some sort of AoE over a long (like 1.5-2 seconds) duration that does damage and slows, but only to the enemy standing within the poison.

I think there are a lot of potential for counterplay that isn't just revealing and destroying it.

HalcyonDwellerMar 28, 20182 votes

That would be really interesting! And yes, something to give opponents a chance to flash out or try to juke would be good. Spreading the damage out over time is another good one.

Another option would to be giving them a reduced radius camouflage effect, so that they can only be detected when you're standing right next to one, basically so that people running places and not paying attention could still step on them easily, but if you're paying attention and have fast enough reaction time you could stop or turn back right before stepping on one. Disarming / removing them would have to be harder then though, because if somebody saw him cast it in a spot then they could just go and clear it out, which might be too much counterplay.

Risen29Mar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

That would be really interesting! And yes, something to give opponents a chance to flash out or try to juke would be good. Spreading the damage out over time is another good one.

Another option would to be giving them a reduced radius camouflage effect, so that they can only be detected when you're standing right next to one, basically so that people running places and not paying attention could still step on them easily, but if you're paying attention and have fast enough reaction time you could stop or turn back right before stepping on one. Disarming / removing them would have to be harder then though, because if somebody saw him cast it in a spot then they could just go and clear it out, which might be too much counterplay.

They already do damage over time.

Making his shrooms visible would be a garbage change. It's already hard enough for them to be useful against competent players who understand how vision works.

Even tossing them around teamfights doesn't work very well when they are smart enough to start throwing down control wards and spamming red trinkets.

HalcyonDwellerMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They already do damage over time.

Indeed, but the damage is unavoidable. We were discussing something like Morgana pool or Singed poison trail, where if you leave it then you can avoid some of the damage. This would actually increase teemo's zoning power because opponents would have to walk through the cloud of damage in order to press onwards.

Making his shrooms visible would be a garbage change. It's already hard enough for them to be useful against competent players who understand how vision works.

Even tossing them around teamfights doesn't work very well when they are smart enough to start throwing down control wards and spamming red trinkets.

You're not even trying to understand what I'm suggesting, you assume I want them to be "visible" and then argue against it as if I want them to be visible in the worst way possible for teemo. Don't bother me about the vision idea again until you're ready to discuss what I actually suggested.

Risen29Mar 28, 20181 votes

I am aware of your goals: but all of your suggested changes are garbage that would make Teemos mushrooms absolute garbage. Doesnt matter if its making them visible before steeping on them, delaying the damage so you can walk back or dash away, or whatever - all those suggestions are garbage for the same basic reason. They come out of a wrong motivation and goal that assumes we should make it easy to never take damage from a mushroom, ever, unless you're a briandead bronze not paying attention to the screen. Your very starting premise, your goal, is not valid to begin with. We don't need that to be the goal for Teemos mushrooms to have such easy counters. Its completely unnecessary. Not unless your goal is to remove what little relevance and fun they have left.

Mushrooms already have counterplay out the whazoo if you know what you're doing. That's why nobody plays him at high elo. In fact, nobody played him professionally even before we had all this new stuff, when his mushrooms were a lot more powerful, precisely because even then he was still easily countered by other means. The simple ward to reveal stealth was all they had, but it was more than enough.

Follow behind the minions and never get hit. Analyze the situation and be smarter about deciding which routes to take between lanes (they cant all be trapped. Especially with only a five minute timer. But it was true of a 10 minute timer too). Make smart engagement decisions based on where you know mushrooms cant be, wouldnt be, or were just cleared from. Hug the walls as your go through jungle, because then you'll miss any mushrooms placed dead center in it. Let your tank clear the way and laugh at the puny damage. Activate red trinket when advancing on his position to become immune to his defensive shroom network. Throw down control ward on your team during siege to prevent mushrooming. An assassin or jungler with duskblade will deactivate all defensive traps and reveal them as they advance.

Or, the easiest counterplay of all: just buy a little MR and shrug off all the damage. Because they are really only good as a defensive slow at that point. Plus, you're half as likely to randomly run into one as you use to be anyway, with half duration. So it's no big deal. A minor inconvience that just reveals your position.

HalcyonDwellerMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I am aware of your goals: -snip- a wrong motivation and goal that assumes we should make it easy to never take damage from a mushroom, ever, unless you're a briandead bronze not paying attention to the screen.

That's not my goal at all, so check your fucking assumptions.

Like I said before, I'm fine with him getting buffs as long as his ultimate has sufficient counterplay. In no way at all do I want him to be garbage.

It's really fucking simple, the experience of walking around and then stepping on a shroom that you had no opportunity to attempt to avoid or deal with, is really shitty. I'm 100% against shitty experiences.

So if anything I'd love to see teemo's mushrooms get buffed, but I'd also like to see them get changed so that they fulfill their purposes without being a shitty experience for opponents. If he gets straight buffs without any changes to the mushrooms, it could result in those mushrooms becoming a horrible experience for opponents again.

Follow behind the minions and never get hit. Analyze the situation and be smater about deciding which routes to take between lanes (they cant all be trapped). Hug the walls as your go through jungle, because then you'll miss any mishrooms placed dead center in it. Let your tank clear the way and laugh at the puny damage.

I already do these things.

Activate red trinket when advancing on his position to become immune to his defensive shroom network. Throw down control ward on your team during siege to prevent mushrooming.

These are needed for vision control around objectives, using them to scout one's own jungle paths between objectives is a waste and feels terrible to do.

An assassin or jungler with duskblade will deactivate all defensive traps and reveal they advance.

This is not within my control. It is something that triggers automatically upon finding wards or traps. And it can be easily countered by setting up an initial ward or trap deeper in the jungle to trigger it before they can find the grouping of traps or wards.

Or, the easiest counterplay of all: just buy a little MR and shrug off all the damage. Because they are really only good as a defensive slow at that point. Plus, you're half as likely to randomly run into one as you use to be anyway, with half duration. So it's no big deal. A minor inconvience that just reveals your position.

That's not an option for characters that are dependent on all-damage builds. And it's contingent on him remaining as weak as he is currently. Any straight buffs to mushrooms or their damage will outpace this solution.

Having counterplay is not the same thing as being fun and engaging to play against. Yasuo has counterplay, that doesn't make him fun to play against. Even winning against such shitty experiences just feels like a chore. It sucks the fun out of the game and makes it less fulfilling to play.

Teemo's mushrooms are not as frustrating right now because they don't deal too much damage, but if they are given straight buffs then that will change quickly.

SaiannaMar 28, 20181 votes

You don't waste the trinket. You counter teemo with just that 1 item.

Seriously, people these days -.-

HalcyonDwellerMar 28, 20181 votes

Oh yeah, I guess I don't need the trinket to secure vision control around objectives. That's not important, fuck me, right?

SaiannaMar 28, 20181 votes

Because you are the only guy in the team, right?

Countering whole enemy champion with a ward is just too much of a work.

Never before there were as many counters for teemo, but you still on bitching and moaning. You know that the same "bohoo invis killed me" shit caused Riot to rework and nerf evelynn to pile of dust?

HalcyonDwellerMar 28, 20181 votes

*yawn*

If you didn't want a snarky response you shouldn't have poked a hibernating bear with this:

"Seriously, people these days -.-"

I care about getting rid of shitty experiences. If something stops being a shitty experience for players then I stop having a problem with it. Stuff like Teemo mushrooms and Yasuo are just very bad experiences for opponents. They can suck the fun out of a game and make it feel like a chore even if you're winning.

Like I've said numerous times already, I'm all for buffing Teemo, but it needs to be done in a way that doesn't make him into an even worse experience to play against. INB4 you say something about losing being a bad experience, I'm not talking about that so don't waste my time with that argument.

SaiannaMar 28, 20181 votes

But you act like if you have exactly NO WAY to deal with teemo. Yet there are. You just want to have it even easier.

That's what wards are for. If you want to use it otherwise, then that's your fault of nosediving into shroom field. Don't blame others because you are too rigid with wards-use.

On a sidenote. Teemo received nothing but nerfs. He's less than a shadow of what he used to be. I wish Riot would buff him back, but lets be honest, they wont do that. There's no way to make shrooms less of an issue either. You either have tools to see it and they should be super strong (and they aren't) or make them true-invis and super weak. Any of those ways won't work.

EDIT: I am seriously tired and annoyed by all those "gimme moar counters for stealths boohoo" opinions. This mechanic is close to useless in this game anymore. Seriously. Everytime there's wave of opinions bullshitting that X/Y/Z stealth is too strong, Riot either nerfs them or adds even more easy/cheap counters for it.

HalcyonDwellerMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

But you act like if you have exactly NO WAY to deal with teemo. Yet there are. You just want to have it even easier.

That's what wards are for. If you want to use it otherwise, then that's your fault of nosediving into shroom field. Don't blame others because you are too rigid with wards-use.

Something that sucks the fun out of a game and makes it feel like a chore or a PTSD ridden anticipation stress-fest is the same thing as having no way to deal with it. Because you need those "ways" for other purposes, having to waste them for shrooms is the same as not having a way anyways because you are then forced to give up the use of those items where you actually need them.

SaiannaMar 28, 20181 votes

Or maybe just start using wards/trinkets to spot shrooms? That might help.

HalcyonDwellerMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Or maybe just start using wards/trinkets to spot shrooms? That might help.

Like I said before, having to waste those things for spotting shrooms and then not having them to be able to set up control around an objective feels almost as terrible as discovering a shroom by stepping on it.

SaiannaMar 28, 20181 votes

having to waste those things

you do NOT waste it. You are hard-countering an enemy champion. That's what those trinkets were made for. God damn get that info to your thick skull.

Risen29Mar 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Something that sucks the fun out of a game and makes it feel like a chore or a PTSD ridden anticipation stress-fest is the same thing as having no way to deal with it.

I don't have this response to Teemo shrooms. I find it hard to believe that anyone over bronze would (that's why Teemo drops off sharply with higher elo in popularity). Unlike you, we know how to deal with them, and we're willing to adjust our tactics.

That's not rank shaming, that's just reality - only a low experience or low skilled player could possibly find Teemo's current mushrooms an intractable problem they are unable to deal with. We have to put your comments into their proper perspective. Nobody with any decent game knowledge is going to share your view about Teemo's current mushrooms being an unreasonable and overpowered problem to deal with.

You can't expect the whole game to bend to your inability to adapt and overcome. The tools are already there. You cannot balance the game around people's unwillingness to use those tools.

HalcyonDwellerMar 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I don't have this response to Teemo shrooms. I find it hard to believe that anyone over bronze would (that's why Teemo drops off sharply with higher elo in popularity). Unlike you, we know how to deal with them, and we're willing to adjust our tactics.

That's not rank shaming, that's just reality - only a low experience or low skilled player could possibly find Teemo's current mushrooms an intractable problem they are unable to deal with. We have to put your comments into their proper perspective. Nobody with any decent game knowledge is going to share your view about Teemo's current mushrooms being an unreasonable and overpowered problem to deal with.

You can't expect the whole game to bend to your inability to adapt and overcome. The tools are already there. You cannot balance the game around people's unwillingness to use those tools.

You're still talking about mechanics. I'm talking about experiences. It's a shitty player experience.

Having hard counters doesn't make it okay. In fact that makes it worse because the teemo player has to suffer from those hard counters. It would be much better if it had gameplay counters that were soft, while being more powerful in ways that could still potentially be out-played.

Risen29Mar 29, 20182 votes

The premise of your entire argument is wrong to begin with. "I'm bad at the game, I refuse to adapt, therefore you must change this character I don't like so I don't have to adjust or think to counter them".

It's only a bad experience because you don't know what you're doing.

He's not a bad experience for me to play against, because I know what I'm doing. And any player with game knowledge will tell you same thing.

HalcyonDwellerMar 29, 20181 votes

Edit: moved as we are out of reply space.

PhDs NutsMar 27, 201814 votes

Second Wind + Dorans Shield combo removed Teemo from the game.

GrReaper96Mar 27, 20189 votes

Dont forget item 3194 later on

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 27, 201813 votes

You dont' see him much because he's always invisible. Duh.

Andrey0345Mar 27, 201813 votes

How can you hate teemo nowadays after Zoe Yasuo Khazix ?

Dead flag bluesMar 27, 201811 votes

item 3194

VizulixMar 27, 20185 votes

I used to main Teemo, I loved every damn aspect of the champion.

Then I started playing ranked and realized how useless he is

I stopped playing him after that.

Riot Please Change/Buff Teemo

CynikulMar 27, 20184 votes

Agreed, he's really shifted away from the despise and hate he recieved. They were welcome changes.

That being said, hes still pretty annoying. I find Yasuo more annoying. You can beat him in lane, 0/3, even 0/4 him, then he roams once on a shoved wave and instantly becomes relevant and strong.

MorticianjohnMar 27, 20183 votes

This week I had a game where I respawned as the ADC and walked down mid to join my team. Stepped on a shroom and went to 25% HP and then stepped on another shroom......

It was a fun game.

With all that said, I still hate fizz way WAY more than Teemo

Hèntaî Apr 1, 20181 votes

Man fuck fizz

lolipopevelynnMar 27, 20182 votes

Trust me, teemo shrooms do not tickle late game

Risen29Mar 27, 20182 votes

I would honestly probably be a lot happier on teemo if all they did was just returned his mushroom timer to 10 minutes. At least then it would be more satisfying to invest in CDR and take time to set up well placed mushroom trap networks. Right now if feels like they are only useful if you are actively pushing an area, because they don't often last long enough to be placed in preparation for anticipated combat in an area. Or, as a more general area denial of a particular jungle section. Those kinds of tactical concerns are what I find fun about teemo, but I feel hindered from realizing the dream with a measly 5 minute timer.

Being able to have a lot of mushrooms would at least be fun, even if they don't hit like they use to.

CatastropMar 27, 20182 votes

The more new champion designs simply don't care about a right clicking rat, if you play one of the few more dated champions, you'll find Teemo can be just as annoying as the old days.

OP Garen SupportMar 27, 20182 votes

All the balanced old champs become non existent, those that Teemo used to counter by being ranged. The new generation of unskilled cancer is dominating toplane.