What's Wrong with Wind Wall, according to (riot champion designer) ZenonTheStoic

Hyrum Graff··3 votes·479 views

He's talking about Kench's shield, but it's the exact same problem. You don't need to anticipate the enemy abilities at all, you just twitch reflex block their most impactful ones.

Q: Tahm Kench's E, "I regret adding the shield on cast begin". I didn't understand this, could you explain?

A: Sure!

Tahm and his enemy are playing a game: Tahm wants to hold off on pressing the E as long as possible, while the enemy wants to hold their big button until after Tahm has pressed and run out of shield. This is a fun game! However, currently Tahm's E does have a cast time (0.25 seconds), but the shield is added in the beginning of that cast time. Meaning the exact moment you press E you get the shield. This reduces the game to a guesstimate of "can the enemy put a CC on me and then kill me before that CC runs out?" If I added the shield at the END of the cast time, like spells normally do, I would extend the game to "can the enemy kill me in the next 0.25s?", which is much richer. It involves making DPS predictions and holding burst spells to the end of your engagement window. Currently, a perfect robot could play Tahm Kench against someone with no hard CC and always turn on the E at the very last moment possible. This is a good sign that your pattern is too simple.

11 Comments

AyRe CoNteMpT2 votes

yeah, thats the problem. the 0.25 seconds delay that tahms E doesnt have is what makes it broken. not the fact that he gains damage from building health so you need to blow EVERYTHING including CC and ultimates to get him to half hp. nooo, THAT isnt the problem. the problem is ZERO POINT TWO FIVE seconds bullshit time.

thank you so much for being an amazing championdesigner "zionthestoic" of whoever it was that brought this abomination upon us

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=okxoGE5U,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-06T16:15:36.110+0000)

yeah, thats the problem. the 0.25 seconds delay that tahms E doesnt have is what makes it broken. not the fact that he gains damage from building health so you need to blow EVERYTHING including CC and ultimates to get him to half hp. nooo, THAT isnt the problem. the problem is ZERO POINT TWO FIVE seconds bullshit time.

thank you so much for being an amazing championdesigner "zionthestoic" of whoever it was that brought this abomination upon us

edit: adding 3

  1. They're literally looking at nerfs for Tahm right now to address the problems you're talking about.
  2. The .25s delay doesn't make him broken, it makes him a less interesting champion to play as and against.
  3. This is a thread about Yasuo, not about Tahm. Whether or not Tahm is broken doesn't mean anything about whether Yasuo is broken or not.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes
  1. wow dem so fast thinkers! impressive. like, did they really need that long to start using their brains? do they even TEST their champs before releasing them? my god rito!

  2. the .25s delay is literally fucking useless and nobody gives a shit. his shield is absolutely fine and its even fine that he can use it instantly. seriously, no fucks given. this doesnt change ANYTHING about his damage.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=okxoGE5U,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-06T16:36:03.401+0000)

  1. wow dem so fast thinkers! impressive. like, did they really need that long to start using their brains? do they even TEST their champs before releasing them? my god rito!

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. All I can take away from this is that you're mad. Which is understandable, since Tahm is kinda broken at the moment. But that's no reason to get worked up into a frenzy and turn a thread that's not about Tahm's balance into a thread about Tahm's balance.

  1. the .25s delay is literally fucking useless and nobody gives a shit. his shield is absolutely fine and its even fine that he can use it instantly. seriously, no fucks given. this doesnt change ANYTHING about his damage.

I never said, "This is the only problem Tahm has." Please stop trying to make it seem like I did.

I DID say, "Here's one problem Tahm has that Yasuo also has."

AyRe CoNteMpT2 votes

does yasuo have it? like, is his windwall supposed to have 0.25 seconds delay? please

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=okxoGE5U,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-06T17:02:41.299+0000)

does yasuo have it? like, is his windwall supposed to have 0.25 seconds delay? please

No, but he should.

^point of thread.

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

he should according to rito or according to you?

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=okxoGE5U,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-07T07:53:43.542+0000)

he should according to rito or according to you?

Me, applying rito's logic about Tahm Kench.

Stars Shaper1 votes

Wind Wall is designed to be a reactive skill and a deterrent when cars preventively. This is why it doesn't serve as a 360 degree defense and a really high number of ranged skills are not affected by it. So quit talking about it as it is a 10 second duration team wise Kayle ultimate which prevents CCs.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=okxoGE5U,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-07T08:24:30.633+0000)

Wind Wall is designed to be a reactive skill and a deterrent when cars preventively. This is why it doesn't serve as a 360 degree defense and a really high number of ranged skills are not affected by it. So quit talking about it as it is a 10 second duration team wise Kayle ultimate which prevents CCs.

It's not a 10 second teamwide Kayle ult. It is exceptionally frustrating to play against as, say, Veigar. As long as Yasuo holds his wind wall, he's playing with QER and I'm playing with QWE.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't like it as a reactive skill. I actually really like it as a preventative deterrent.

Stars Shaper1 votes

I'm sorry? I don't think you've never played that matchup as Yasuo against Veigar, Wind Wall is not really a concern for him expecially if you manage to lure it out easily with your Q. Veigar range makes Yasuo a hard one to deal with and you got to be really good at placing your E if you want to have good laning but really Wind Wall isn't a concern.

I've played tons of lanes as Varus mid vs Yasuo and always dominated them simply because knowing that all my skills and AAs can be countered by WInd Wall I set up fake full combos and zoned him well enough to have free plays when I wanted.

More from Gameplay

More by Hyrum Graff