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Unpopular Opinion: Warwick's rework is actually crap

chipndip1··4 votes·1,908 views

I came to an epiphany yesterday: If we were to judge champion kits by how much they don't "annoy" us or how "inoffensive" they are, this is when people will say "Yeah, WW's rework was top notch". And they have.

Other part of that epiphany is: Losing is annoying. If you're not annoying anyone, your kit probably sucks.

Warwick as a champion is much like that nice guy that girls like and might date for a week, but then leave because she and him have nothing in common except the fact that they both don't want to see the mess she's gonna become when she runs into the next bad boy of the month that she's gonna run into the week after she dumps him. Sure, the thought of Warwick is nice, just like the thought of "Nice Guy Jimmy"....

...but who the fuck even plays Warwick?

Lemme provide an example: Why the hell do we have Yorick in this game? He's a split pusher that spends all day smacking people with a stick shovel, but instead of infinitely scaling into the game, he has the ability to send his ult into another lane. Who would send their ult to the other side of the map when you'll potentially need to fight off enemies who'll have their own ults while you're split pushing? There was WAY too much emphasis on the presentation and thematic of Yorick's rework (which they did well on) and not NEARLY enough on the strategic significance of the rework. Of course no one complains about Yorick being "Annoying" or "Unfun" because he's fucking Bronze bait. People walk over this champion constantly. The only people that give a rat's ass about Yorick are Silver and lesser elo players. Not even being rude about it, but you're not going to find some Plat+ player talking shit like "Man, Yorick is just SO GOOD in League of Legends". Not unless Riot had a stroke and added 48372 extra damage to his level 1 Q.

In that same light, what does Warwick do to enrich the League roster? There's no new mechanics. There's no new niche . He doesn't attempt to solve a problem in the game. He's just a diver that claws at people and drain tanks. This guy is LITERALLY just old Xin Zhao in terms of overall strategical value. He gap closes and clicks on you until he wins, or he doesn't win and he realizes he should have been Xin Zhao for the stronger early game and the projectile invincibility. Sure, he isn't "annoying", but that's because he has no real presence on the rift and hasn't for months now.

See, people like the thought of Warwick, but no one's stopped to think "Who would want to play this champion"? His presence in the game's low, and nothing he does is new or interesting, so that combined with his strong thematic makes people like his concept, but his game play in this video game that we play is beyond unsatisfactory. If it wasn't, he wouldn't be so scarce on the rift all the time. Sure, if we over tune him he'll show up, but that'll happen with nearly anyone. Truth is, Warwick's rework is great concept art and terrible execution, just like Yorick's rework.

I don't care about champions being irritating to face when I need to improve my own skills. If Riot's going to go through the effort to rework a champion, they need to be good champions. If not, what did we gain?

28 Comments

MrHaZeYo9 votes

Well, ask yourself this. Is new WW a modern version of old WW who was even worse off? Like old WW had 1 use, Ult. New WW had his ult changed to a skill shot (which also has the pro of a get away), while adding another CC (Fear) and Damage Reduction. Giving him basically mobs, and gave his Q a utility function in that he can follow targets as they dash.

I rarely seen WW before, since his rework I've seen him a lot more. He's still a simple champion for new players, but he's a lot better off then before. Sure he may suck now, but he's still better then he was, and chances are he'll come back in the meta eventually.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

[deleted]

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

don't bother you're talking with someone who thinks Irelia rework should be standart

LEAVE MY THREADS ALONE. GO AWAY. SHOOO.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Well, ask yourself this. Is new WW a modern version of old WW who was even worse off? Like old WW had 1 use, Ult. New WW had his ult changed to a skill shot (which also has the pro of a get away), while adding another CC (Fear) and Damage Reduction. Giving him basically mobs, and gave his Q a utility function in that he can follow targets as they dash.

I know I've been trying to do this less, but I seriously have to ask this because this is important to the discussion:

Who cares?

Someone like Xin Zhao is going to be Warwick's main competition, right? They both heal off of AA spamming, they both have pretty good early game clears, they're both divers, and so on. Where Riot gave Xin Zhao a mid-ranged slow and invincibility from poke to go with his aggressive gap closer, what does Warwick have? A dash that can miss and leave him to die and damage reduction with a tiny fear? The rest of it is just Xin and WW's version of "Sticking to targets while AA'ing them".

The new logistics aren't that important. The point is what do the logistics accomplish? Warwick's changes make him better than his older iteration, but he'll never be a true contender on the rift.

I rarely seen WW before, since his rework I've seen him a lot more. He's still a simple champion for new players, but he's a lot better off then before. Sure he may suck now, but he's still better then he was, and chances are he'll come back in the meta eventually.

He's had a 2% play rate for months, dating back to patch 8.19, according to Lolalytics. Idk where you're seeing him a lot more, honestly.

And who said Xin Zhao isn't simple?

MrHaZeYo2 votes

I never said Xin wasn't simple, but you're trying to compare new and old WW. New WW has been actually usable in the higher elos, where as old WW was simply a bronze champion. I'm not saying new WW is awesome, but he is simply better then old WW which was the goal right? He kept his simple design for new players while also adding skill expression.

You can complain about new WW all you want, but he is a much better champ then he used to be while keeping a lot of his kit similar. I'm sure you remember when new WW was the premier solo queue jungler, he had something like a 55% winrate for a few patches, and now he is down to 2% playrate, and that is still higher then old WW. If you ask me the rework was a success, it kept him similar to his original kit while modernizing him which he desperately needed.

Abibyama II4 votes

Hey you shut your mouth mister >:(

Warwick's niche is hunting down low health people and kill them. His lvl 3 is unmatched and his early ganks and especially his counter ganks is really good, he has really good flanking potential and his team fighting is decent

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohfyQY03,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-01-15T10:20:05.353+0000)

Hey you shut your mouth mister >:(

Warwick's niche is hunting down low health people and kill them.

So literally every assassin in the game?

Abibyama II2 votes

Assasins don't have the ability to run from bot side to top side at a speed of a Bugatti Veyron and Dash range on the ulti increases depending on the move speed

And the dog doesn't one shot like the Assasins

So no.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohfyQY03,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-01-15T16:33:25.855+0000)

Assasins don't have the ability to run from bot side to top side at a speed of a Bugatti Veyron and Dash range on the ulti increases depending on the move speed

And the dog doesn't one shot like the Assasins

So no.

If you're THAT far away from the team fight, your issue isn't "I'm not Warwick". Your issue is "I don't look at the mini-map to know when I need to group".

And who cares about his ult range increasing with run speed? An actual landed ability is far stronger than the potential to land it from a longer distance. There's way better means of gap closing in this game than throwing a hail Mary dash out.

Abibyama II2 votes

Was talking about the early game, mid and late he's a tanky R bot. And that's the only thing he always had, pre and post rework

If the goal of the rework was to make him "Pretty much the same, and make him noob-friendly " which it is, then yeah the rework is good

You seem to have a different perspective of what the goals should have been.

Moody P4 votes

There's no new mechanics.

holding Q lets him follow dashes and deny displacements.

Warwick is a global-presence janitor who can run from dragon to top to clean off a low HP Riven if she stays to farm or, if he gets fast enough, catches her while she recalls. His global awareness of low HP targets also works to his team's benefit because he can ping their location for global ults like Jinx, Ezreal, etc. as well as any slayer fast enough to close the gap. That's very good information awareness. Warwick usually doesn't see competitive play because he's quite easy to peel off and doesn't have a great early gank, which is all the rage right now.

...but who the fuck even plays Warwick?

Does a champion need to be 20% pick rate to be a successful champion? He maintains a perfectly normal pick and win % which is where most reworks should be. He has his role, he does it modestly without needing to be a standing-out issue. What's the problem?

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohfyQY03,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-01-15T10:31:10.468+0000)

holding Q lets him follow dashes and deny displacements.

Warwick is a global-presence janitor who can run from dragon to top to clean off a low HP Riven if she stays to farm or, if he gets fast enough, catches her while she recalls. His global awareness of low HP targets also works to his team's benefit because he can ping their location for global ults like Jinx, Ezreal, etc. as well as any slayer fast enough to close the gap. That's very good information awareness. Warwick usually doesn't see competitive play because he's quite easy to peel off and doesn't have a great early gank, which is all the rage right now.

The Q is largely inconsequential.

The "global presence janitor" thing you're trying to tack onto him is basically just mobi boots on a competent jungler made easier. His W only tells people the "general direction" of low hp opponents. It doesn't tell you who else is there, nor does it tell you exactly where they are. Whatever WW's kit provides in his W and Q can be circumvented by simply not being bad at League of Legends while playing someone else.

Does a champion need to be 20% pick rate to be a successful champion? He maintains a perfectly normal pick and win % which is where most reworks should be. He has his role, he does it modestly without needing to be a standing-out issue. What's the problem?

My problem is that he has no presence in the game, period. What he brings to the game doesn't truly add to the depth of the game. It only widens the roster.

His pick rate's like 2%. It's been that way for months. He's hardly seen in solo queue.

He's ALSO not seen in the competitive space since his kit isn't designed for that space.

In a world where people complain about one champ or another being "overloaded", I'd rather have a champ that exists on the rift to some degree of significance than a champ that everyone "likes" and no one actually uses. This was my issue with Nunu and Willump, which you've largely agreed with me in the past when I said his rework was bad. It's my issue with Yorick, which you've said yourself was also a bad rework. Well, it's part of my issue with Warwick, too. I'm not letting him slide because he's "cool".

Like, chasing down people that are low hp...if you're not shit at jungling this isn't an issue in the first place. You'll already be where you need to be just by jungling well. At that point, you could be Nidalee, Camille, Xin Zhao, Graves...a whole bunch of champions with stronger jungle pressure and better team fight than Warwick. Why on Earth would I pick Warwick outside of "jungling for the first time"?

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

Okay.

How would you rework Warwick then?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohfyQY03,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-15T08:05:19.836+0000)

Okay.

How would you rework Warwick then?

"Yeah I don't know. This food just tastes awful."

"Okay, well how would you make it?"

"I wouldn't. I'm not the supposedly professional fucking chef."

This "if you think it's bad then you must know how to fix it" is a non-argument. OP said as much as they needed, that they think the rework should have provided some sort of new mechanic or niche.

While I don't agree with that position, and certainly his ultimate scaling with movespeed is a new mechanic, OP isn't the one who's job it is to make the champions.

That said, I think Warwick's rework was one of the best. It entirely kept the feel of old Warwick while modernizing him. Not a fan of him having two dashes that are both immune to Poppy's anti-dash ability, but I digress.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

"Yeah I don't know. This food just tastes awful."

"Okay, well how would you make it?"

"I wouldn't. I'm not the supposedly professional fucking chef."

This "if you think it's bad then you must know how to fix it" is a non-argument. OP said as much as they needed, that they think the rework should have provided some sort of new mechanic or niche.

While I don't agree with that position, and certainly his ultimate scaling with movespeed is a new mechanic, OP isn't the one who's job it is to make the champions.

That said, I think Warwick's rework was one of the best. It entirely kept the feel of old Warwick while modernizing him. Not a fan of him having two dashes that are both immune to Poppy's anti-dash ability, but I digress.

I didn't imply that OP knows how to fix it, I just asked what OP would do to fix it.

Food is not really comparable, as how something tastes can vary greatly from person to person.

If something tastes bad, you can't really pinpoint what it is that makes it taste bad, it just tastes bad.

In this game, however, you can pinpoint what it is that makes something bad (obviously, whether the thing is indeed bad or not is still subjective, but at least you can pinpoint it).

Like you said, OP says he wants a new mechanic or niche.

So I ask him:

"Well, what kind of niche would you want Warwick to fulfill?"

Is that wrong of me?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohfyQY03,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-15T09:12:14.399+0000)

I didn't imply that OP knows how to fix it, I just asked what OP would do to fix it.

Food is not really comparable, as how something tastes can vary greatly from person to person.

If something tastes bad, you can't really pinpoint what it is that makes it taste bad, it just tastes bad.

In this game, however, you can pinpoint what it is that makes something bad (obviously, whether the thing is indeed bad or not is still subjective, but at least you can pinpoint it).

Like you said, OP says he wants a new mechanic or niche.

So I ask him:

"Well, what kind of niche would you want Warwick to fulfill?"

Is that wrong of me?

Well, no, you can. You can tell if something has too much salt or a particular spice you're familiar with, if it's over or under cooked, if it's lacking seasoning, or was handled poorly, etc. It's quite comparable.

Though people rarely actually talk bout what they dislike about particular abilities, opting instead to suggest they be removed entirely.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Well, no, you can. You can tell if something has too much salt or a particular spice you're familiar with, if it's over or under cooked, if it's lacking seasoning, or was handled poorly, etc. It's quite comparable.

Though people rarely actually talk bout what they dislike about particular abilities, opting instead to suggest they be removed entirely.

Well, in this situation, the customer would be able to point out what makes the food taste bad, which means the chef would be able to learn from that.

Similarly, I want OP, "the customer", to point out what Warwick's niche should be so that Riot, "the chef", can learn from that.

Dynikus1 votes

he wouldn't be so scarce on the rift all the time.

He's not, though? He has an average/ slightly above average win rate, and a play rate right in the middle of the pack. He's not a top tier meta jungler right now, but he has been before after his rework, and likely will be again after a meta shifts more in his favor. I actually find his rework kit really fun, personally, and I think most people agree that he's substantially better than he was pre-rework. His kit isn't really designed around pro play, but it can still work great in solo queue.

Pandemic Punch1 votes

I wouldn't say it is crap but I DEFINITELY prefer old Warwick.

saltran1 votes

Congrats, at least it was an unpopular opinion.

haaaaaaalp1 votes

Warwick is what a balanced champion is suppose to look like. His current pick rate is the lowest it has been in a long time and even then he is just barely in the lower third. Throughout his time since the rework, his pick and ban rates stayed steadily in the middle third of all champions with occasional rises and drops depending on the meta. He would occasionally venture into the top or bottom thirds due to shifts in the meta but even with those variations, he was almost never broken tier or bottom tier.

Compared to the trainwrecks such as the recent irelia or akali, Warwick's rework stands out in actually delivering a champion who can function in a moba without breaking the game. League doesn't need champions with a million mechanics. Almost all of the season 1 and 2 champions had extremely limited kits and the game was far more fun because of it.

King Lego1 votes

I don't get how WW is crap. Like as if the old WW was any better? Point and click ulti with no counterplay.

The new WW has a really cool W even true to his trailer, and his ulti is a skillshot that can be used as an escape rather than point and click and actually very healthy for the game.

However, we were very lucky to have him as he is because rumor has it that CT wanted to add few more stuff like a massive aoe fear in his ulti. While apparebtly he said he didn't enjoy reworking WW since he wasn't working alone, this is what happens when you get a leash shoved on CT's neck. A champion that's actually healthy, not overloaded and NOT a balance nightmare and not going through a ton of hell and changes.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohfyQY03,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-01-15T11:07:07.413+0000)

I don't get how WW is crap. Like as if the old WW was any better? Point and click ulti with no counterplay.

This isn't comparative to old WW. That's like me saying I'm strong and comparing my bench press to a 13 year old girl.

The new WW has a really cool W even true to his trailer, and his ulti is a skillshot that can be used as an escape rather than point and click and actually very healthy for the game.

Like I said: His thematic is amazing. The same thing with Yorick and Nunu. Great thematic, but their game play put too much emphasis on the theme and not enough on the strategic importance of picking them.

However, we were very lucky to have him as he is because rumor has it that CT wanted to add few more stuff like a massive aoe fear in his ulti.

"We're lucky Warwick isn't actually useful for engaging fights. That'd be HORRIBLE."

The hell else you use this champ for? He doesn't accomplish anything that any other diver can't do. A massive aoe fear would make the champ worth using, if I'm being honest. At least then you could have him fly like a rocket into the enemy team and have him disrupt their formation from the flanks, so the rest of your team can follow him up before he's torn apart. As he is now, his ult has very little reward for landing it.

While apparebtly he said he didn't enjoy reworking WW since he wasn't working alone, this is what happens when you get a leash shoved on CT's neck. A champion that's actually healthy, not overloaded and NOT a balance nightmare and not going through a ton of hell and changes.

If "healthy champion" = "champion I don't have to think about in this game", give me more cancer ass shit. Warwick doesn't enrich this roster with anything. He's literally just there. Sure, some champs can be annoying, but if you're not annoying in a competitive game, you're probably not a threat, and that's a bad look, not a good one.

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

This isn't comparative to old WW. That's like me saying I'm strong and comparing my bench press to a 13 year old girl.

Like I said: His thematic is amazing. The same thing with Yorick and Nunu. Great thematic, but their game play put too much emphasis on the theme and not enough on the strategic importance of picking them.

"We're lucky Warwick isn't actually useful for engaging fights. That'd be HORRIBLE."

The hell else you use this champ for? He doesn't accomplish anything that any other diver can't do. A massive aoe fear would make the champ worth using, if I'm being honest. At least then you could have him fly like a rocket into the enemy team and have him disrupt their formation from the flanks, so the rest of your team can follow him up before he's torn apart. As he is now, his ult has very little reward for landing it.

If "healthy champion" = "champion I don't have to think about in this game", give me more cancer ass shit. Warwick doesn't enrich this roster with anything. He's literally just there. Sure, some champs can be annoying, but if you're not annoying in a competitive game, you're probably not a threat, and that's a bad look, not a good one.

His ulti can heal him well, can now be used for an escape. Would you rather have a point and click ulti? That thing was already toxic.

"The hell else you use this champ for? He doesn't accomplish anything that any other diver can't do. A massive aoe fear would make the champ worth using, if I'm being honest." He's already good enough to engage fights since he has a fear, tankiness and even a heal. Did you read what i said on what CT wanted to do? He wanted to add another massive aoe fear on his ulti and many other that i don't even know what and don't want to know. If he really did rework on his own, WW would be another balance nightmare, which is no surprise whatsoever.

Just because a champion is not annoying, doesn't mean they are not a threat. [slayer-jinx-unamused] Usually annoying means little to no counterplay.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohfyQY03,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2019-01-15T16:50:14.123+0000)

His ulti can heal him well, can now be used for an escape. Would you rather have a point and click ulti? That thing was already toxic.

THIS IS NOT COMPARATIVE TO OLD WARWICK.

"The hell else you use this champ for? He doesn't accomplish anything that any other diver can't do. A massive aoe fear would make the champ worth using, if I'm being honest."

He's already good enough to engage fights since he has a fear, tankiness and even a heal. Did you read what i said on what CT wanted to do? He wanted to add another massive aoe fear on his ulti and many other that i don't even know what and don't want to know.

He engages on one person in the front line, and he's easily peeled in team fights. In Xin's case, they gave him invincibility to long range spells to make him useful. In WW's case...people buy GW to counter his healing off ult and he dies.

Usually annoying means little to no counterplay.

There's plenty of counter-play in "annoying" kits. People not being arsed enough to play around it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. People have said Zoe had no counter-play before, which is all kinds of asinine. I highly doubt the boards would be the best spot to discern what champs offer counter-play.

King Lego2 votes

{quoted}

THIS IS NOT COMPARATIVE TO OLD WARWICK.

He engages on one person in the front line, and he's easily peeled in team fights. In Xin's case, they gave him invincibility to long range spells to make him useful. In WW's case...people buy GW to counter his healing off ult and he dies.

There's plenty of counter-play in "annoying" kits. People not being arsed enough to play around it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. People have said Zoe had no counter-play before, which is all kinds of asinine. I highly doubt the boards would be the best spot to discern what champs offer counter-play.

I'm not saying it's comparative, but both have the same concept. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Regardless if boards or even Reddit, nothing can be proven as a fact of what mechanic is toxic for the game or not whether it has coubterplay or not.

Not even a Rioter can state it. It's literally a combination of bias and non-bias. A double edged sword.

GreenKnight1 votes

Like every rework.

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