Are we going to ever see changes to Jayce that will make him less toxic?

Melledoneus·Mar 26, 2017·92 votes·8,894 views

His ranged/melee duality is ok, but there really isn't a choice for him to make. He just blows all abilities in both forms when he wants to kill someone. Why not make him choose his approach rather than make him a mindless combo champ?

103 Comments

TyrekGoldenspearMar 26, 201733 votes

Jayce Buddy, I already spent all the thinking I care to do constructing this technological marvel. Excuse me if I want its performance to be convenient.

MelledoneusMar 26, 201715 votes

Viktor Plucks the mana crystal

"Now, you must make do. Goodbye."

Jayce "Well, I suppose I must make do. Curse you, Viktor. Curse you."

Weight of LawMar 26, 201711 votes

you act like jayce would not one-shot viktor when he gets anywhere near him [slayer-jinx-wink]

MelledoneusMar 26, 201720 votes

Jayce Charges up hammer Face the fut- Viktor Casually tosses gravitational field under Jayce's feet Jayce I-I can't... moooove... Viktor I'll be taking this. Plucks mana crystal and walks off Jayce Nnnnoooooo... come back...

DarkSunSovereignMar 26, 201715 votes

{quoted}

Charges up hammer Face the fut- Casually tosses gravitational field under Jayce's feet I-I can't... moooove... JK FLASH BB Dies noisily I'm balanced

FTFY

5000000000000000Mar 26, 201710 votes

item 3814

DarkSunSovereignMar 27, 20175 votes

Or that. But that implies the Jayce player planned that beforehand, which implies the Jayce player has a brain, which is impossible.

LeetriMar 27, 20175 votes

The trick with Viktor is to throw the gravity field under yourself so if they use their engage on you they'll get stunned and you can speed boost away or just straight up kill them. I've killed many a Yasuo and Zed doing that. :P

Malicious MetalMar 26, 201730 votes

They should relocate some power from Cannon form to Hammer form.

Make him actually use the bloody hammer for other stuff than to disengage.

MelledoneusMar 26, 20179 votes

Sounds like you're trying to get another bludgeoning champion for your roster. :P

In all seriousness this might be a good idea.

Stars ShaperMar 26, 20175 votes

Probably shifting the execute power on the cannon and give Hammer more defenses or ways to be in melee without self exploding could be the right choices.

I think it deliver more his fantasy with him being able to start a fight in Hammer form and finish off leavers with cannon rather than the opposite.

WoonStruckMar 26, 20172 votes

Hammer form is what makes him an issue in almost any meta. The one exception is when he was used specifically for poke comps in season 4 or 5.

UltîmaMar 27, 20172 votes

Oh god please no. Do you know how much damage he's dealing in hammer form right now?!

Samflash3Mar 27, 20171 votes

Like a W hammer form shield that only works in hammer form?

doodlebob666Mar 26, 20179 votes

maybe make the ranged side scale off of ap and the melee go with ad and balance off of that? could work if he had a passive somewhere to convert ad to ap and vice versa with maybe 20% of ap becomes ad, 40% ad becomes ap?

MelledoneusMar 26, 20174 votes

Maybe make his ranged/melee abilities stronger but each of his abilities in each form increase the cooldown of switching or something. Some way to prevent him from changing forms the more abilities he uses in one form.

Hyrum GraffMar 26, 201710 votes

{quoted}

Maybe make his ranged/melee abilities stronger but each of his abilities in each form increase the cooldown of switching or something. Some way to prevent him from changing forms the more abilities he uses in one form.

Gnar shares cds between forms.

MelledoneusMar 26, 20174 votes

This would work too.

Luxs DestinyMar 27, 20172 votes

Not. Thematically, it works for Gnar. Jump, can't jump now that I'm large. Jump large, little body can't do it. But if I'm placing an AccelGate with cannon, there should be zero reason why I couldn't use the hammer to bash someone in the face. Or if I shoot something out of the cannon, there's zero reason (thematically, of course) why I shouldn't be able to do my signature dunk and slam.

MelledoneusMar 27, 20174 votes

Because you use up the energy and you're waiting for the machine to cool down and re-charge from the crystal? That could be a thematic reason why Jayce has to wait before using the rocket propellers on his hammer to swing and launch himself for a front flip slam.

Luxs DestinyMar 27, 20171 votes

Is this "MACHINE" (because it's definitely not the spawn of Hextech technologies, no?) from the same age as Blitzcrank, who must let off steam after temporarily overclocking it's abilities? How does it work thematically to USE UP ENERGY that is not a champion resource? So my weapon is going to mysteriously just NOT WORK in the middle of a fight, even though my resource is mana? I'm using energy as a ninja, I'm out of energy so I'm unable to use some techniques. Cool, yeah, that makes sense due to modern depictions of ninjas using arts or techniques, and exhausting themselves over time. However, if I'm taking an invention of extreme genius out to a battlefield, you best believe that puppy ain't gon short out on me after one action. You think, as the Defender of Tomorrow, that I'm going to take on to the battlefield something that doesn't work 24/7? Something that requires downtime in the Age of Now?

MelledoneusMar 27, 20174 votes

Think of it as a machine that uses energy to overcharge itself and shoot huge bolts of energy. Naturally it won't be able to shoot a huge bolt of energy for a while because it needs to charge up the required energy to do it. So why should he be able to use his other abilities if he just overclocked the machine and drained its charge without giving it time to restore its power? Yes, the mana crystal powers it, but the machine isn't efficient enough itself to draw that much power while being that compact. There has to be a drawback.

Otherwise Viktor would be constantly firing death beams without relenting.

IGotScuttleCrabsMar 26, 20174 votes

That'd be cool. Ranged has ap scalings and melee has ad scalings. Could make him a safe pick for your team and a "I wonder what path he'll take" for the enemy. Problem would be making it so one doesn't completely overshadow the other. I'm getting flash backs of Nidalee launching spears from the fog to 1 shot people and only going cougar to run away.

LuggMar 26, 20179 votes

The damage needs to be better balanced between his ranged abilities and his melee ones. Personally, I think that 60% of his damage should be from melee abilities. That way he can't just get someone down to low health from range for an easy all in without it taking awhile. This would allow him to still have poke and be able to CS from range, but it wouldn't be near as toxic.

Over InnsmouthMar 27, 20174 votes

You're just Jaycist.

SirΤeemοMar 26, 20172 votes

what? he already got 2 nerfs in 2 patches in a row... another 1 nerf and he will the next azir he is 100% based on mana managment so.. just make him waste all his mana (very easy to do ... Q-W-E = 70% OF HIS MANA) if he gets another nerf he should have his mana on his skills lowered too..

MelledoneusMar 26, 20178 votes

Nerf /= Change

Please reread the post.

SirΤeemοMar 26, 20173 votes

why change jayce? lol there are way too many other champions that need a change lol

MelledoneusMar 26, 20178 votes

What reason do you have NOT to change him? Of course many champions need changes but Jayce is one of the worst offenders of incredibly toxic design and playstyle. He has almost no windows of counterplay, he can outrange most opponents, beat the majority of the roster of the entire game in melee, disengage and start poking again. He has no hard counters. He never really falls off. When he's strong he's impossible to beat and when he's weak he isn't played at all.

I'm not asking for a VGU, I'm asking for some minor changes to how he works so that he doesn't have a toxic playstyle that boils down to doing the same damn thing over and over and succeeding every time.

SirΤeemοMar 26, 20171 votes

oh please... yasuo can destroy every living thing and nobody cares.. jayce can deal a little more damage early game and everyone cries... if you can't play against a jayce.. who can be easily outplayed then dont play top or don't play at all.. go buy gta 5 it's 50% off this week on steam

by the way.. teemo counter's him... Also .. pick a tank champion against him.. how hard is it.. if you want to play vayne for example top.. not our problem.

MelledoneusMar 26, 20177 votes

{quoted}

oh please... yasuo can destroy every living thing and nobody cares..

Really? Because if I remember correctly Riot nerfed him recently, more than half the playerbase hates him, and the only reason Riot hasn't nerfed him again yet is because they don't want to touch him until they see what their changes to crit do to him.

jayce can deal a little more damage early game and everyone cries...

Jayce can 100-0 someone in one combo at level 4. He also has safe poke, safe farming, disengage, chase potential, kite potential, if there's one damn thing Jayce doesn't have it's sustain and a vamp scepter fixes that. I'm sorry your top lane pick is getting bashed on, but everything I say here is the truth whether you like it or not.

if you can't play against a jayce.. who can be easily outplayed then dont play top or don't play at all.. go buy gta 5 it's 50% off this week on steam

Please tell me how to outplay a Jayce. I would like to know how a targeted AoE slow+slam paired up with a a full combo to the face lets me do anything. Please tell me how I can retaliate when he vomits his damage on me in 2 seconds, then when I try to retaliate he negates everything I do by knocking me away and dealing a % of my max HP in magic damage.

I want to know how you outplay a Jayce besides "stay behind minions" or "build tanky to survive his burst." Because I'd rather play League of Legends than pay money for a game on steam I probably wouldn't even enjoy. Also, this is hardly about me than about helping a champion's dedicated players be able to play their champion without having him either be weak or permaban.

SirΤeemοMar 26, 20171 votes

yasuo got 0.25 less damage to his E , that's not a nerf.. that's a joke. like you
you can win against jayce by going with and , but ofc i guess you pick something like lucian top, which is countered by jayce..
how about staying behind minions in the lane so he can't hit you with his Q-E combo ? (the ball)
also .. how about not playing aggresive ?

MelledoneusMar 26, 20174 votes

{quoted}

yasuo got 0.25 less damage to his E , that's not a nerf.. that's a joke. like you

He got 10 less damage per level, so maxing E, which most Yasuo players do, deals significantly less damage.

2. you can win against jayce by going with and , but ofc i guess you pick something like lucian top, which is countered by jayce..

Jayce can kill you at really early levels. I don't have Sunfire or thornmail (this item is shit against him by the way) from levels 1-5.

3. how about staying behind minions in the lane so he can't hit you with his Q-E combo ? (the ball)

It seems you forgot already:

besides "stay behind minions"

Also he can still harass me with autos while I try to farm, and use his E-Q (or Q-E) combo at point blank to my face.

also .. how about not playing aggresive ?

Not playing aggressive gets you f*cked over to begin with. He can harass you for free with his ranged autos and you can't do jack shit about it because he outdamages you in melee too. How is that healthy design?

Asayake 5150glowMar 26, 20171 votes

{quoted} Please tell me how to outplay a Jayce.

Wait, do you really not know? 0_o In case you dont: Engage when he swaps forms, preferably from melee to ranged so he has no knock back to stop you from wrecking his face. Otherwise, dodge his ranged Q.

MelledoneusMar 26, 20172 votes

The problem is a good Jayce will use his E to outrun you then nail you with a high damage Q for free kite harass. Also a good Jayce hardly switches forms if he knows he has the range advantage over you.

Asayake 5150glowMar 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The problem is a good Jayce will use his E to outrun you then nail you with a high damage Q for free kite harass. Also a good Jayce hardly switches forms if he knows he has the range advantage over you.

A good Jayce will indeed do those things, but it's pretty much impossible for a good Jayce to lose lane. However, if Jayce doesn't snowball, he's pretty useless come late game.

MelledoneusMar 27, 20172 votes

Even if you're good at a champion, you shouldn't have a guaranteed win. I've seen amazing Yasuo players get destroyed all the time. Even Faker, the god of mid lane, has lost lane hard before. Jayce should not automatically win lane against anyone just because the person playing him isn't a total dolt.

TheSnackenMar 26, 20171 votes

Ok, look, here's what you do:

dodge his empowered Q. Seriously. Its telegraphed enough that you ought to be able to avoid it if you're watching for the gate.
Beat him to the punch. If you engage on him while he has his cannon on, he starts the fight at a significant disadvantage. He can't point-blank his empowered Q, so he needs to disengage to do that, or immediately switch to Hammer, cutting his damage. Sticky champs are a particular problem.
Buy an item to duck his damage. Assassins (who will generally work better) have Edge of Night, Mages have Zhonya's. For everyone else, there's Banshee's Veil™
Pick Darius. This one's just a personal preference, but I find Darius to have a decent plan for success. He has the sustain to trade safely, and has Apprehend to keep the fight going after his attempt at disengage.

Asayake 5150glowMar 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ok, look, here's what you do:

dodge his empowered Q. Seriously. Its telegraphed enough that you ought to be able to avoid it if you're watching for the gate.

Are you forgetting that Jayce can and should Q+E?

Beat him to the punch. If you engage on him while he has his cannon on, he starts the fight at a significant disadvantage. He can't point-blank his empowered Q, so he needs to disengage to do that, or immediately switch to Hammer, cutting his damage. Sticky champs are a particular problem.

But he can... he just needs to (empowered if he has it) auto+Q+W+transform+Q+W+E and not only did he massively outtrade, you, he also dissengaged.

Buy an item to duck his damage. Assassins (who will generally work better) have Edge of Night, Mages have Zhonya's. For everyone else, there's Banshee's Veil™

Not gonna work unless you have the ability to reengage after he E's you away. Otherwise, you'll go in, he combos you and doesn't kill you, then E's you out and gets away. That is, for melees, not sure about Mages.

Pick Darius. This one's just a personal preference, but I find Darius to have a decent plan for success. He has the sustain to trade safely, and has Apprehend to keep the fight going after his attempt at disengage.

I feel like Darius would get hard countered if Jayce only swapped to melee after Darius E's and kites him with ranged for the rest of the time.

And how did you miss the biggest part?

Engage when he's just transformed. He loses access to half his kit, which means half his damage and potentially his dissengage. Ranged to melee means you wanna go in for a trade - you'll probably win it unless he E's you out immediately. If you won't, stay near him so when he changes to ranged you can all in him and kill him, but be careful not to get engaged on and die to a (melee)Q+auto+E+R+auto+Q+E+autos.

TheSnackenMar 27, 20172 votes

I literally covered that in point 2. And yes, you have to engage on him first. That's the whole point. Jayce's high power comes from being able to engage at an advantage 90% of the time. You have to punish him for his mistakes. That's not any different from the entire rest of the roster, why is that such an outrageous point when we're talking about Jayce?

Wind WhistlerMar 27, 20172 votes

Lol. His name is SirTeemo, and he even said that Teemo is a counter to Jayce. How could you possibly think that this guy mains Jayce?

sobi999Mar 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

oh please... yasuo can destroy every living thing and nobody cares.. jayce can deal a little more damage early game and everyone cries... if you can't play against a jayce.. who can be easily outplayed then dont play top or don't play at all.. go buy gta 5 it's 50% off this week on steam

by the way.. teemo counter's him... Also .. pick a tank champion against him.. how hard is it.. if you want to play vayne for example top.. not our problem.

I don't even think you know how teemo works regardless of your username. Teemo doesn't counter jayce, he'll break you into pieces and i have played enough teemo to know that. Lane against a decent jayce first.

SirΤeemοMar 26, 20172 votes

because i play both teemo and jayce.. they are 2 mains of mine... i know that teemo counters jayce. the point with jayce is to dodge his Q--E combo

MelledoneusMar 26, 20173 votes

How the hell does Teemo counter Jayce if Jayce can outdamage him with two abilities?

Velzard of KozMar 26, 20172 votes

Well currently he's ranged-melee in sense Marksman-Diver. How about turn him into ADBattleMage-Diver. Battle Mages tend to have typical Diver tools (shield/heal sustain, damage over time or sustained damage) with range. That way he'd remain ranged just wouldn't be Marksman and wouldn't have that large range.

Another thing would be making his Hammer form (since Cannon is setup anyway and Hammer is the one he uses after while to finish the battle) more telegraphed that he'd need to work for it. For example he'd use Energy instead of Mana with Hammer but would only generate Energy via Canon (Mana) abilities (and aa maybe) so that the player could keep track how much Energy Jayce has so far and thus predict whether he can afford to go Hammerham. However it would have to be balanced around 1 Hammer rotation = 100 Energy and thus 2 rotations with maximum Energy because otherwise it would mean that once he fires all abilities, he can only AA which expects the abilities to overperform and we are at Assasin instead of Diver again.

FTWolfMar 27, 20172 votes

I mean thats what many low elo people think when they see jayce, oh he blows all his abilities to kill me. Go take a look at 3-4 of PKB Dovah's jayce videos and you'll see how much more tedious thought is put into kiting opponents and using your abilities correctly. At low elo practically every champ can be considered blow all your abilities hoping to kill somebody.

MelledoneusMar 27, 20171 votes

I may be low elo by rank, but I have learned over my years of playing to view it in a more inclusive light. Yes, Jayce can be played smart and kiting/orb-walking/animation cancelling can be utilized for effectiveness. The problem is that most Jayce players do not even have to put that much effort for almost the same output. Jayce's tools are too easily utilized and much too powerful.

FTWolfMar 27, 20171 votes

Yes, but there are obvious things that you could do that you probably aren't doing. Would you link a game that I could review for you against a jayce top lane? I'll name most of your mistakes that I can see.

MelledoneusMar 27, 20171 votes

As I stated in another comment, Jayce is a matchup I understand and play through effectively. I simply accept that I cannot fight him and let him push so I can freeze the wave and put him at risk of being ganked, since champions like Shen cannot fight a skilled Jayce because his tools deny Shen the opportunity to set the ground for a trade.

However, that does not change that the playstyle his kit promotes is toxic in nature. It allows for little to no interactivity and the lane is basically Jayce's to lose. It is the reason why Jayce is either near-permaban or not picked at all. When he's strong he eats a ban even in the LCS. When he's weak it's like he doesn't exist.

So tell me: would you rather have your champion kept in a pre-rework Poppy state because they are toxic or do you want a champion you can play? The choice is yours, FTWolf.

FTWolfMar 27, 20172 votes

The problem is he's not in pre-rework poppy state. He's still along the same lines as fiora riven and yasuo a pretty good skirmisher and split pusher when utilized correctly, or a mageyish teamfighter. Imo his early game needs a shift in power to his late game. I have no clue how they would be able to do that, but it is possible if they gave him an actual ult, changed abilities, gave him a one big cd ability not ult cd but like a 40-45 sec ability etc.