STUNS AREN'T A COUNTER

TrikzterzArma·Aug 17, 2018·10 votes·2,732 views

Whenever a champion being broken is brought up, whether it is on the Boards, Reddit or somewhere else, there is always people showing up saying "he/she isn't op, just stun them".

With that logic, no champion in the game is broken, because "you can just stun them". And if that was the case, everyone would pick a champ that has hard-cc.

Stun Yi? Good luck when he's alpha striking all over the place. Stun Katarina? Good luck when she blinks three times in a fight (Oh, and Kata can oneshot you without her ult)

"Stunning" someone isn't counterplay.

23 Comments

S0kaXAug 17, 20187 votes

{quoted}

With that logic, no champion in the game is broken

Gangplank laughing in the distance

AlzonAug 17, 20182 votes

You sure he’s not just yelling, “CANNONS!”?

JamareeAug 17, 20184 votes

Doesn't even have to be a stun, a snare, a root, any hard CC will do, but if your team comp is so crappy that you don't have any hard CC, you don't have any right to complain when you lose.

TrikzterzArmaAug 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't even have to be a stun, a snare, a root, any hard CC will do, but if your team comp is so crappy that you don't have any hard CC, you don't have any right to complain when you lose.

That's not what I said lol.

JamareeAug 17, 20182 votes

Just saying and it is true. In the case of Katarina and Yi, they have very VERY subpar survability once they get stuck. A single stun means curtains for them and since they don't have the kits that allow them to build tanky in anyway, they have to do their damage incredibly quickly to actually be viable as champions. So yeah, stun them.

Jerry SeinfeIdAug 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Just saying and it is true. In the case of Katarina and Yi, they have very VERY subpar survability once they get stuck. A single stun means curtains for them and since they don't have the kits that allow them to build tanky in anyway, they have to do their damage incredibly quickly to actually be viable as champions. So yeah, stun them.

yi honestly does perfectly fine with item 3742 item 3065 , you're still gonna die if they immobilize you and actually follow up but it allows some more room for fuckups.

Need Gold 4 TentAug 17, 20181 votes

Again, the counter for Yi (and all other ult reliant champs) is to waste it out. CC doesn't necessarily mean you'll kill him, as he may build tanky (still can kill squishies but takes a bit longer). However, him taking longer means a single root will waste a part of the precious 7 seconds of highlander for him to kill someone. This is also the reason Cowsep's most hated item is item 3157 (to the point it's probably a meme now). If Yi doesn't get a kill during highlander and it ends without him getting an extension, he's done for that fight. He can't catch anyone by himself, and his damage plummets. That's the ultimate weakness of bruiser Yi that people think has no weakness just coz they don't nuke him in 0.1ss

Crit Yi will nearly always get a kill within 1 second of hitting , pretty much ensuring resets, but they're also always glass cannon and die to a sneeze so the "kill during cc" is a totally valid statement. They will rarely survive past the first kill if they get it, since resets are now 70% rather than 100% so it's kind of a troll build (that works against disorganized players).

Jerry SeinfeIdAug 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Need Gold 4 Tent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oWh5A47U,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-17T16:07:21.278+0000)

Again, the counter for Yi (and all other ult reliant champs) is to waste it out. CC doesn't necessarily mean you'll kill him, as he may build tanky (still can kill squishies but takes a bit longer). However, him taking longer means a single root will waste a part of the precious 7 seconds of highlander for him to kill someone. This is also the reason Cowsep's most hated item is (to the point it's probably a meme now). If Yi doesn't get a kill during highlander and it ends without him getting an extension, he's done for that fight. He can't catch anyone by himself, and his damage plummets. That's the ultimate weakness of bruiser Yi that people think has no weakness just coz they don't nuke him in 0.1ss

Crit Yi will nearly always get a kill within 1 second of hitting , pretty much ensuring resets, but they're also always glass cannon and die to a sneeze so the "kill during cc" is a totally valid statement. They will rarely survive past the first kill if they get it, since resets are now 70% rather than 100% so it's kind of a troll build (that works against disorganized players).

I mean i'm not disagreeing with the counterplay to yi. Just with the "he can't itemize tanky" part. I play yi i know how he works, honestly his ult isn't that important in my elo. But then again i play midlane yi and do well in my elo.

Stars ShaperAug 17, 20183 votes

Actually yes, they are (in general).

The issue comes only if the only way to neutralize the champion after the stun is that 5 ppl instantly jump on them and kill them before the stun expires.

Let me make some examples:

Yasuo got stunned during a dive, he is done for as he has no ways to escape (unless there is a wave of minions running down to safety) nor the life steal to sustain himself if he gets out of the stun alive.
Zed got stunned during a dive, jokes on you, he can instantly teleport to a shadow in his fountain.
Yi got stunned during a dive, like you are going to kill him after he Alpha Strikes your squishies into golds for him and then heals himself back to full by either attacking or meditating on how skilled he is.

Automated RivenAug 17, 20183 votes

This is why riot should balance around diamond 1 - challenger.

saltranAug 17, 20181 votes

Yup

DerMangoJoghurtAug 17, 20182 votes

Of course it is. If your opponents picked a high mobility champion and you picked nothing to lock them down you missed an opportunity for counterplay. If you waste your cc on a low priority enemy and get punished you missed an opportunity for counterplay. Even not using cc is counterplay since your opponent might not dare to engage when it's still available.

With that logic, no champion in the game is broken, because "you can just stun them". And if that was the case, everyone would pick a champ that has hard-cc.

I agree, cc is useful against many champions, but there's always a trade-off. I you pick hard cc you will sacrifice damage, mobility or other useful stats for it. Your team needs a little bit to ground mobile opponents or kite, but any more than necessary will hurt your team.

Stun Yi? Good luck when he's alpha striking all over the place. Stun Katarina? Good luck when she blinks three times in a fight (Oh, and Kata can oneshot you without her ult)

Just because it's challenging doesn't mean it's not counterplay. Quite the opposite, you can easily hit Yi directly after his Q, but Yi can save his Q until you use your cc. This creates an interesting environment of anticipation and execution both sides have to play around. That's like the very definition of counterplay.

theChibiTinaAug 17, 20182 votes

I got flamed once because I was playing lux and struggling to land my root on a master yi. The worst part is that they apparently didn't know the difference between a root and a stun because they kept saying "land your stun." Even worse still is it was a heimerdinger. If it's so easy then why don't they land their stun on the yi. Lol. You literally have to have multiple abilities with hard cc between at least a couple people just to guarantee you can stop the yi because he's so hard to hit. Or have point and click cc like a lulu ult on the person yi goes in on. It's hard to pick into a yi though if he's one of the last people in champ select.

Ulquiorra0123Aug 17, 20181 votes

Rooting master yi is the same as stunning.

DrCyanideAug 17, 20181 votes

Provided he wasn't already on top of you and can get an extra few autos off, then meditate in place if it looks like he'll take too much return damage.

theChibiTinaAug 17, 20181 votes

Yes, but that wasn't the first time or the last time I'd heard those words. I play Zyra a lot and in my elo people get upset if you miss even once. There have been times where I missed her root (because mobility is a thing) and been told to land my "stun" and not even necessarily on a melee champ who relies on auto attacking. I think it's just a low elo thing. :/

WeaselRuneAug 18, 20181 votes

Most noobs think that Lux and Morgana Q is a stun. Reguardless of what the difference is on Yi, almost 70% of the people I support with Morgana think she stuns with her Q.

Pika FoxAug 17, 20182 votes

Yes, CC is a counter. Not every champ is equally hurt by CC.

If you stun amumu, he is likely going to survive the CC.

If you CC a burst mage after their rotation, they already did their job.

If you CC an ADC or a melee hyper carry, they likely dont have the stats to survive the duration.

If you CC a melee champion, it makes it much less likely that they will be able to get in range before your ranged champs pick them off.

So yes, CC is a valid counter.

Spicy RiceAug 17, 20182 votes

Not being skilled enough to hit someone with an ability isn't a reason to say something doesn't have counterplay

Ulquiorra0123Aug 17, 20181 votes

OOF. I mean Katarina's only real way of killing someone who hasn't seriously outplayed is to ult, and stunning is how you counter it. Yi is a champion that preys on stupidity, his kit is entirely designed to do so, and if you stun him he dies.

Obviously there are champions that are broken that unfortunately nothing can really deal with like pre nerf Aatrox, but Kat and Yi are horrible examples as their kits are literally countered by any stun in the game. If you cant land the stun, you misplayed against those two. Neither champion is broken, just play better.

EedatAug 17, 20181 votes

STUNS AREN'T A COUNTER

YES, they are

Here is the difference between stunning a DPS like MasterYi and Twitch . When you are grouped, Yi has no choice but to dive in to your team to get a carry. This makes it drastically more easy to land a stun on him. Then guess what? He's a glass cannon DPS stuck in the middle of your team and gets blown up in 1 second. This is different than someone like Twitch who is 700 units away behind his team making it drastically more difficult to stun him.

Jesus christ this is basic logic

LeftyRaydyAug 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Whenever a champion being broken is brought up, whether it is on the Boards, Reddit or somewhere else, there is always people showing up saying "he/she isn't op, just stun them".

With that logic, no champion in the game is broken, because "you can just stun them". And if that was the case, everyone would pick a champ that has hard-cc.

Stun Yi? Good luck when he's alpha striking all over the place. Stun Katarina? Good luck when she blinks three times in a fight (Oh, and Kata can oneshot you without her ult)

"Stunning" someone isn't counterplay.

"stunning" could be counterplay if every champion had a reliable stun. A lot of champs do not have a stun, and my main champ (Ekko) has a stun that Yi can see coming from miles away.

WeaselRuneAug 18, 20181 votes

This kind of game logic falls under what I call "all you gotta do is" fallacy.

The concept of "all you gotta do is" that there is never a problem with a boss, character, item, or other issue in a game because it can be dealt with very simply because all you gotta do is stun, dodge, use X ability, play X character, gang up on, etc. them and you win!

Give an example of how dumb "all you gotta do" is...

The new character in "Der Awezum Anime Gurl Dule 31"manga isnt OP. The main characters can easily defeat her. All you gotta do is sneak up on her while shes sleeping, set up about 10 kg of explosives in direct contact with her legs without waking her up, then get clear and set them off... thats all you gotta do!

The thing about the fallacy is it is used often as a justification for something being excessive by simply offering up a solution that would counter ANYTHING, and sometimes even still doesn't counter the problem in the worst cases.

The fallacy is pretty common in pvp games with CC chains, or character combos that can put anything down. So long as their is SOME kind of inescapable combo or chain then nothing can be OP cause... say it with me... "all you gotta do is."