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If Zyra/Brand aren't supports, Blitz/Naut/Leona aren't either.

chipndip1··8 votes·750 views

"Supports are supposed to be about helping your team! Heal me! Shield me! Whisper sweet nothings into my ear whi-"

Yeah, well the last time I checked, Blitz isn't exactly the peel mastuh of disastuh, nor is he some overlord of selfless behavior. Sure, he was designed to duo lane, but he wasn't designed to "support". Leona's the same business, where she was designed with the intention of either solo or duo laning, but not necessarily as a "support". Nautilus was brought around in season 5 and just hangs out bot lane sometimes, but he's not an intended support either. If people are gonna say Zyra and Brand need to leave bot lane, these 3 should be removed as well. They aren't supports just as much as Zyra/Brand aren't. They have no team buffs. They're just tanks taken bot lane because they have some function that's decently useful off of base values, similar to the mages taken bot for the same reason, no?

Now, am I REALLY saying we should remove these guys from bot lane? No, I'm saying that people should be honest with themselves. The real reason they don't want Zyra/Brand/Malz in bot lane is because they do damage. They're used to supports not being a threat unless someone else is holding their hand and walking them around for them, so when a support actually threatens them, they hate it. If this statement was wrong, wouldn't our usual supports be more potent earlier on? You know, since they're meant to be really strong early, then fall off? If they are, Soraka everyone complains about how Janna shitty the lane is now because all kill potential has been removed because Sona these supports are op and need nerfs. Now usual supports aren't that big early due to repeated nerfing sessions, and we got these mages that are strong early, and people are saying "Man, I wish people would play Soraka again" after we nerfed her early game, which is the main point of a support, which is the main reason why these guys are being used now! Regardless, if you fulfill the job of a support well, there's no wrong way to do it. If that happens to be killing the lane over sucking off a marksman player, then have at it, honestly.

17 Comments

PPPPPPPPPPPP2706 votes

Support champions has a really weird double standard. When supports go anywhere that isn't bottom lane their solo capabilities get gutted to hell. Was Riot right in doing that? Absolutely Jungle Alistar had insane ganks and could easily get behind your tower and kill you. Top lane Lulu made almost every melee top laner useless for 10 minutes and it was impossible to engage her with her massive self peeling and poke damage.

Now when a non support champion goes bottom lane. Riot embraces them and at best they try to compromise between the two roles. Brand and Zyra haven't been touched that much and could function as a mid laner though most people see them support being more effective because insane bases.

Now when a supports beats an ADC in a 1v1 early game, that's reasonable. ADCs aren't supposed to be strong early game. When it's 30 minutes later and a support managed to 100-0 the ADC when the support has 5k less gold, that's not ok at all. When a support has more damage dealt than a mid laner that's not ok at all.

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

Leona was designed to duo top - back when they still wanted that to be an option. For that reason, she shifts rather seamlessly to support. Nautilus Has decent durability and a F-ton of CC, making him decent as a support.

Blitz isn't a support. He's a 1-trick pony that brings nothing else to the table. Only reason he gets by is his 1 trick (grab) being ridiculously OP.

chipndip11 votes

Yeah, and?

Brand and Zyra are good in the support role as well. The point of this post isn't "These tank 'supports' aren't supports". The point is "People should stop saying these mage 'supports' should be nerfed out of supporting when these tank 'supports' have been completely remodeled by the role".

Idc about them being good supports or not. I care about the hypocrisy in comparing the two.

serenity73 votes

Brand, and only recently to a lesser extent Zyra, are still only being balanced around being solo laners. They need nerfs to their support play because what is balanced in a solo lane is not necessarily balanced for a duo lane. Leona is labelled as a support on her info page, and is balanced around supporting because she is rarely played elsewhere. Blitzcrank was rebalanced somewhat recently as a duo laner, and is not played solo often. Nautilus is still viable in the top lane and jungle, but his support gameplay taken into consideration when he is changed, also he was weak not so long ago in all roles. Zyra and Brand don't need to leave bot lane, either they or traditional supports need to be adjusted so in some cases people have reasons to choose supports over mages for bot lane. If mages are viable as supports, why are supports not as viable as solo laners? Whenever a support goes solo they start seeing nerfs. It happened with lulu and sona. It doesn't happen as quicky for mages going support. Zyra needs her mana costs to be increased because she does constant poke and hardly runs out of mana. Brand is not as overpowered but could use some adjustments.

chipndip11 votes

My point is that, regardless of original intent, we're here now, and thus we shouldn't have people clamoring for Zyra/Brand to be removed from bot lane because their original designs from like 2012 or so was meant for mid. As you can see, very few champs were designed to "be a support and that's that".

serenity71 votes

Exactly I don't want them to be removed completely they are fun to play. I like to play support brand and vel. If they stay OP they will just be nerfed and not viable anymore. I hope they are balanced with support gameplay in mind as well. And supports buffed slightly to deal with them.

chipndip11 votes

Respect.

sobi9991 votes

It's not just that supp do damage that people hate, it's also because they want to carry the game themselves without helping the real carry (adc) to do so. I main soraka and i occasionally play velkoz as support. Soraka really is a wonderful supp and so many adc's add me just because i supported them so well throughout the game. My adc hardly ever die when i am soraka but as a velkoz i just wana kill anyone who comes in my way. It's freaking impossible to protect my adc the same way as soraka/janna and thresh would do. Those 3 supports are the best traditional supp in my opinion. Velkoz is also great but only if the team lacks damage and you can compensate for that.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

It's not just that supp do damage that people hate, it's also because they want to carry the game themselves without helping the real carry (adc) to do so.

You're a part of the problem.

You see "damage dealing" as something supports just shouldn't do. Why? Because supports aren't supposed to hurt you. Why is THAT? No reason, maybe because of the title. Just like how these tank supports don't really support anyone. Their rotations are selfishly designed. Blitz pulls people to him so he can do his rotation. It isn't designed like Braum, who works his stun off of him and his team applying follow-up hits, or Ivern's where people can zip to the snared target. Same for Leona pulling herself to the last person she hit with her E to pull of a cc rotation on that person. We simply converted these functions to something that a carry can work with in a duo lane, but it's not like you're really designed as a support with a kit like that.

So why is it a problem when this logic is used by mages? Because it hurts. That IS the reason. The sole reason. If these mages did less damage, no one would say "remove this person from bot lane". Just like no one did for Nautilus.

sobi9991 votes

{quoted}

You're a part of the problem.

You see "damage dealing" as something supports just shouldn't do. Why? Because supports aren't supposed to hurt you. Why is THAT? No reason, maybe because of the title. Just like how these tank supports don't really support anyone. Their rotations are selfishly designed. Blitz pulls people to him so he can do his rotation. It isn't designed like Braum, who works his stun off of him and his team applying follow-up hits, or Ivern's where people can zip to the snared target. Same for Leona pulling herself to the last person she hit with her E to pull of a cc rotation on that person. We simply converted these functions to something that a carry can work with in a duo lane, but it's not like you're really designed as a support with a kit like that.

So why is it a problem when this logic is used by mages? Because it hurts. That IS the reason. The sole reason. If these mages did less damage, no one would say "remove this person from bot lane". Just like no one did for Nautilus.

I clearly stated i play "Velkoz occasionally" and he does true damage as well. I believe it's better to rely on the damage the adc provides as they are the strongest class in the game( once they are close to finishing their build). In certain team comps you may even need a burst mage supp like i mentioned when the team lacks damage or maybe lacks AP champs, as traditional supp hardly deal any damage.

What you're not understanding is this..... Traditional supp are made weaker early game because otherwise they will spam heals/shields all day long and the lane will be in stasis. On the other hand adc's are usually always weak early game to compensate for being hypercarry late game. These burst mages have high BASE damage on their abilities and hence rely less on items (hence stronger early game). Thus they can easily burst down an adc at early game and the traditional supp won't even provide an adequate means of protection. As a traditional supp you're more less useless without your adc which means the bot lane has 2 damage dealers left against you (adc + burst mage) and you're left to die as well.

The mages then scale back to the same as adc's/traditional supp once they get the items but then the laning phase is already over. Now outside lane is different. Traditional supp do their work much better here than burst mage supp as the adc's have enough damage now but need peeling and/or protection i.e. shields/heals. Supp items received major buffs to them in patch 6 so traditional supp could benefit from them due to their low gold income but the fact that the burst mages rely mostly on base damage early game + receive decent amount of money from spell thief/coin means they stay dominant atleast till mid game. Too much damage in the game means, traditional supp are incapable to heal/shield burst and are thrown out of the window as games are much shorter now than they were before. So everyone goes burst mages bot lane and everyone is after killing or dealing as much damage as possible. While bursting enemies who approach adc might be a viable method of peeling/protecting i do believe the adc needs to get the kills and not the assists to bring them to their stronger late game hypercarry role faster. I have not played a single game as an adc and yet i want them to deal the damage as i stated the reasons above. Support role is the only role that makes it's team's mistakes forgivable and have less dramatic consequences and the least selfish role there is out of the other 4. They do not go for kills whenever possible, you already have 4 other roles for that, leave one role out of it plz.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

I clearly stated i play "Velkoz occasionally" and he does true damage as well. I believe it's better to rely on the damage the adc provides as they are the strongest class in the game( once they are close to finishing their build). In certain team comps you may even need a burst mage supp like i mentioned when the team lacks damage or maybe lacks AP champs, as traditional supp hardly deal any damage.

Clearly this isn't the case if this is what the meta is right now. Metas are shaped by averages and general success chances. If saving your carry was truly stronger than killing the enemy carry, then Janna would still be the go-to girl in the bot lane. She isn't, because it isn't.

What you're not understanding is this..... Traditional supp are made weaker early game because otherwise they will spam heals/shields all day long and the lane will be in stasis.

Oh, I understand this. I understand this fully. If I say "Hey, why not rework some of these guys and their out-dated play patterns?", then I get a ton of flack and backlash and I get downvote spammed, similar to this thread here where I'm at -10. Yet, did I say anything necessarily false? No. Utility oriented support picks aren't strong enough early, so people turned to picks that are. That's what people want from supports. If you really need sustain and shields later, you can buy both of those things in large amounts through Locket and Redemption, which further reduces the need for "classic" supports.

On the other hand adc's are usually always weak early game to compensate for being hypercarry late game. These burst mages have high BASE damage on their abilities and hence rely less on items (hence stronger early game). Thus they can easily burst down an adc at early game and the traditional supp won't even provide an adequate means of protection. As a traditional supp you're more less useless without your adc which means the bot lane has 2 damage dealers left against you (adc + burst mage) and you're left to die as well.

Literally what I've been saying. Mages do what supports should do, supplement the weakness of their laning partner, better than the supports do.

The mages then scale back to the same as adc's/traditional supp once they get the items but then the laning phase is already over. Now outside lane is different. Traditional supp do their work much better here than burst mage supp as the adc's have enough damage now but need peeling and/or protection i.e. shields/heals. Supp items received major buffs to them in patch 6 so traditional supp could benefit from them due to their low gold income but the fact that the burst mages rely mostly on base damage early game + receive decent amount of money from spell thief/coin means they stay dominant atleast till mid game. Too much damage in the game means, traditional supp are incapable to heal/shield burst and are thrown out of the window as games are much shorter now than they were before. So everyone goes burst mages bot lane and everyone is after killing or dealing as much damage as possible. While bursting enemies who approach adc might be a viable method of peeling/protecting i do believe the adc needs to get the kills and not the assists to bring them to their stronger late game hypercarry role faster. I have not played a single game as an adc and yet i want them to deal the damage as i stated the reasons above. Support role is the only role that makes it's team's mistakes forgivable and have less dramatic consequences and the least selfish role there is out of the other 4. They do not go for kills whenever possible, you already have 4 other roles for that, leave one role out of it plz.

This last paragraph shows you're still apart of the problem.

Oleandervine1 votes

People also forget that Morgana, who is played almost exclusively as support now, was designed as a solo laner.

chipndip11 votes

I just hate the hypocrisy. New guys hurt more, so they get more hate. You have to be a complete dependent to belong as a support, apparently. Anything else is a perversion of the role or something.

sobi9991 votes

{quoted}

People also forget that Morgana, who is played almost exclusively as support now, was designed as a solo laner.

Sry that reply was to someone else :/

The Deckowner1 votes

blitz is designed to have 1 niche being his rocket grab and nothing else, he can not function without teammates and therefore he need to be played as a support.

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