PSA: You're intended to be counterplaying champions who have true damage, not counterbuying them

The Sword Saint·Sep 6, 2015·47 votes·3,476 views

If riot wanted you to be able to stack stats and ignore these champions who have true damage, they wouldn't be giving the true damage. Everyone of them has ways to counterplay them that are more interactive than clicking buttons in the shop window. Try using those if you are having trouble against true damage.

I understand that getting better at positioning, teamwork, mechanics, etc. is much more difficult than buying items that allow you to ignore people, but that's what riot wants you to do so in the long run its better if you get used to the idea. On the upside, these skills will help you against non true damage champions too.

94 Comments

Meep ManSep 6, 201515 votes

That's my argument against people who complain about Fiora. Make her have to work for that mark. She has to actively try and hit it to get the damage, she's not like Vayne where it's just three basic attacks and bang.

TurquoiseYoshiSep 6, 20157 votes

Maybe if Riot made a champion spotlight for Fiora, then people would know how to counter her.

Wicked WaffleSep 6, 20154 votes

Nah, most people are too dumb to even watch the champion spotlight, then in game they get rekt and say "OMG FIORA BROKEN NURF NURF NURF." And if you say "read the champion spotlight," they say "2lazy." That's one of the reason why I hate this community.

TurquoiseYoshiSep 6, 20153 votes

At least you would be on the high ground then. The person too lazy to watch a 6 minute video would be the one in the wrong.

Wicked WaffleSep 6, 20152 votes

The problem is, the person too lazy to watch a 6 minute video comes to the boards and starts whining about how X is overpowered and starts exaggerating. I believe (don't have any evidence for this) that this is why Riot always listen to the boards.

Aeolian MelodiesSep 6, 20151 votes

lol, most people don't even seem to read patch notes

"wtfwtfwtf barrels from GP??????????????????????" "the rework was 3 patche ago..." "REWORK????????????"

sigh

Wicked WaffleSep 6, 20151 votes

When Bard was released: "omg what's this circle thingy? steps on it oh I get movement speed!" proceeds to step on every health pot in the game even at full hp

When Fiora rework was released: Me: parries Garen's ult Garen: OMG YOU HACKING REPORT HACKER

iamthegoatofwarSep 7, 20151 votes

heh i had a zed once who knew about the fiora rework and we were dueling top lane. I still remember that this was while fiora was still new and we were both shocked you could counter ignite. Like I read the 0 damage/cc ect but i expected ignite to work. I lived the tower dive and killed him but we both agreed that was bullshit.

WingsofGulgazorSep 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wicked Waffle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQwfINeg,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-09-06T19:42:10.358+0000)

Nah, most people are too dumb to even watch the champion spotlight, then in game they get rekt and say "OMG FIORA BROKEN NURF NURF NURF." And if you say "read the champion spotlight," they say "2lazy." That's one of the reason why I hate this community.

I haven't played for like 2months before fiora was introduced but Fiora really is broken. Her Q is great - low cooldown - gap closer or escape - really good in lane for all-inning or to just poke. Her W can completely counter several champions if the Fiora play knows when to use it in certain matchups it's an auto lose. Especially since it negates an ability and stuns you to help give her the time to get her hits of to activate ult and get that true damage off. and Fiora's E I don't really have an opinion on it. Her ult is pretty good. But you can't really completly counter play fiora by positioning all of the time because she has good mobility to counter play that as well. Fiora's ult has a lot of synerygy with being a mellee champion and the rest of her abilities.

I mean think about if master Yi or tryndamere or many other mellee champions like that had an ability that would ignore abilities or combos that you thought were troublesome while stunning the enemy. It would be so easy to split push with them and auto win everygame and teamfighting would be easier with them. and if you replaced for instance tryndamere's E with fiora's Q on top of giving tryndamere the ability to ignore troublesome abilities he would be even more broken. I know that in some way it's comparing apples to oranges but Fiora's abilities synergize really well and her W can completely shut down many champions. and her true damage counters many of the champions that are already countered by Fiora's W and the healing on Fiora's ult makes her considerably stronger against any champion, as well and then the fact that Fiora's snowballs pretty hard can lead to several problems.

I mean let's look at Sivir the only reason sivir is played is because of 1)her ult and 2) her spell shield. If Sivir was missing one of the two she would never be played and if Sivir had more to her kit like longer range or more damage she would probably be completly broken. Especially if her Ult did damage and was as useful as Fiora's.

Wicked WaffleSep 7, 20152 votes

I do agree that Fiora is slightly overpowered right now. Things I would do to nerf her is: Increase mana cost for Q. It's too spammable, and you can't remove the damage or the cooldown, as that's essential for her kit. If you increase the mana cost (like 40/45/50/55/60) then Fiora will have mana issues, which is good. Fiora's W should stay the same currently. You need twitch reflexes to use it properly, and it already has a long CD. Fiora's E should have a higher mana cost, similar to Q. Fiora's ult should have a longer cooldown. It's not fun having it up every 50 seconds. Also, Fiora's heal can be negated by standing next to a wall, although I only see this happening in ranked for Plat+ elos.

Fiora's theme is do be a duelist. And duelists (IRL) have very fast reaction speed and mobility. They have to dance around their targets. Tryndamere and Yi are fighters (IRL) who whack their opponent till they die. Both are squishy, both are melee ADCs, but Fiora must have high mobility to make the best use of her kit. Yi and Tryndamere, on the other hand, don't care about their positioning; they just keep whacking.

A Miss FortuneSep 8, 20151 votes

Maybe if she still wasn't ugly people would dare go top and learn how to counter her.

FalconPawwwwnchSep 6, 20156 votes

So tell me what's the counterplay to Vayne rightclicking me lol

FallingMeteorSep 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

So tell me what's the counterplay to Vayne rightclicking me lol

Killing her is one. Buying a pink or upgrading your trinket is another. Thornmail seems to work great vs her.

Blade of JusticSep 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Killing her is one. Buying a pink or upgrading your trinket is another. Thornmail seems to work great vs her.

The only thing you mentioned that requires "Play making" is "Killing her".

Everything else is counterbuilding.

Which is what is being frowned upon in this thread.

We're gonna need more than "Kill Her" or "CC Her" to know how to outplay her.

KONO RUBICK DASep 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Killing her is one. Buying a pink or upgrading your trinket is another. Thornmail seems to work great vs her.

you can't kill the bitch, it's easier to say then to do it. I never saw a vayne dying in a teamfight in 80% of the cases

WingsofGulgazorSep 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So tell me what's the counterplay to Vayne rightclicking me lol

well ya, when your top played champions (in this order) are Irelia/jax/singed/tryndamere/olaf/vladimir/renekton/Galio/malphite/and Nasus, vayne would be strong against you but even if she's strong against the majority of those champions you should have members on your team that have champions that beat her and if you play Malphite more which is one of the biggest counters to vayne then you would wreck her more. But of course because you don't seem to play any ranked and only normals where people are all differnt skill levels is just asking for a vayne who has an over the average skill level for that normal game to carry and get fed. Becuase if the player who plays vayne is higher then average skill then the player in the game the Vayne will go through laning phase well and possibly even get fed and then there jungler would typically not do much against her at that point and then when the top lane player has something like tryndamer/jax/singed your team is going to get stomped. Even if elo wise the vayne is lower then average player in the game since not everyone is always playing there best roles or playing seriously and the better players on vaynes team might know how to create oppurtunities to make vayne fed or able to teamfight easier it can make the lower tier vayne look better and it's a lot easier to do that if the enemy is playing jax or singed ect.

I mean you litterally play like 2 champions that does well against vayne. I mean vayne is litterally one of the champions that counters players like you. But just like how she perfectly counters several champions which you happen to play a lot of Vayne also gets countered by a lot of champions. She litterally hard counters like 5 of the champions you play. I mean if you pick tryndamere your team will have to have a tank jungle as well or your comp will suck and then a vayne player will be pretty easy to play against your team.

It sucks but I use to main Sona and Sona got completly destroyed by champions like Leona. When you play Sona you have to push the lane like an idiot and then that is almost asking to get ganked which if your good with Sona you can usually avoid but against Leona or someone like her your just going to die and if you don't play while pushing and poking your not playing Sona right and you'll almost always auto lose lane or play even and get outscaled by the enemy support providing more utility then you.

So it's like this against Janna you would puhs and win lane hard unless you get killed by some ganks or you play and go even against her or slightly worse by being under your turret.

and then against Leona you just lose hard when Leona grabs you and you die harder if the enemy jungler ganks as well. and if your under your turret you just get dove.

So I used to think that Leona was broken and that junglers had to much power when it wasn't that but that Sona just gets heavily countered by both of those things made me think Leona was broken and since I played several champions like janna and soraka/caitlyn/prerework ashe that Leona happened to also do well against I thought that Leona had to be broken. But when I quit and started playing again and I starting playing different champions I have had no problem with Leona. The only champions you seem to play that does good against vayne is malphite and then the only champions that are alright or not terrible against vayne are irelia/ and I guess vladimir and though there not good against vayne there not terrible. But when you play tryndamere and singed your just asking for a vayne to counter you and a janna to counter you even harder. Thus allowing the enemy team to outright win the game 80% of the time.

RaptameiSep 6, 20154 votes

Riot should remove damage types and armor types. In HotS everything does the damage it says it does and the game is fine.

MohawkBirdSep 6, 201520 votes

[deleted]

RaptameiSep 6, 20154 votes

{quoted}

That's way to big of a change for league. If they do that they also have to re-do the whole item system too, and all champion abilities.

Exactly, or they could continue their decline while HotS is growing fast.

The Sword SaintSep 6, 201526 votes

Except LoL is the one growing and HotS is the one declining. Semantics though, amirite?

OnegarionSep 6, 20154 votes

Right you know its pretty much the same thing, growing and declining. Simple mistake here.

idokiSep 6, 20158 votes

https://mswd.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/picture2.jpg Boss: Johnson! The company is in big trouble! You have exactly 5 seconds to fix it. Johnson: http://imgur.com/BNIkB1u Boss: Dammit Johnson! You did it again!

JohnJonesySep 6, 20157 votes

Johnson! You get a raise!

MohawkBirdSep 6, 201511 votes

[deleted]

HighH1Sep 7, 20151 votes

Indeed the only one who's can really compete with LoL currently is DOTA. Although Smite is growing and it's in 3rd person so in a few years it might be able to compete with LoL and Dota or completely take over

iamthegoatofwarSep 7, 20151 votes

might grow faster than a few years. Smite is on xbox too and if it hits playstation i could honestly see league losing fans within the next year.

Angry MonsterSep 7, 20154 votes

actually most PC moba players are not interested in console FPS games. FPS games on consoles have constantly proven weaker than PC counter parts, due to the weaker control system.

IE keyboard mouse has better precision than a controller. PC master race

iamthegoatofwarSep 7, 20151 votes

...do you know what fps games even are?

Angry MonsterSep 7, 20151 votes

first person shooter which smite is modeled after. Smite is a hybrid moba with its cross being a FPS. The controls for a First person are still better with a keyboard and a mouse.

Until microsoft and sony give built in keyboard and mouse support for their consoles PC will be the better experience as far as control goes. Unless you want to be babied and have aim assist built into everything.

CubedJusticeSep 7, 20152 votes

Actually, it's a third person shooter. Just saying.

TurquoiseYoshiSep 6, 201513 votes

Makes sense to just remove a great form of strategy in favor of a game with about 10x less strategy than League.

OnegarionSep 6, 20154 votes

10x? Are you being generous here? The only strategy is the global objectives, but when thats a huge win condition is it really that strategic anymore?

JustMyBassCannonSep 6, 20152 votes

You have to admit that "Get the thing" is approximately 1/10th the complexity of League of Legends.

MyrddinSep 7, 20154 votes

{quoted}

You have to admit that "Get the thing" is approximately 1/10th the complexity of League of Legends.

get the thing is literally 95% of league, maybe 99%... get the thing is the entire point of the game

For example

Get the CS Get the Tower Get the Dragon Get the Baron Get the Inhib Get the Nexus

VerxintSep 7, 20151 votes

The thing is HotS isn't "get these things"

Each map is literally "Get this one thing that is so powerful it wins the game for you"

I mean there's merc camps and Boss and such, but the Cannon/Dragon Statue/Tributes/Golems/Webweavers are designed to win the game if they aren't stopped by multiple heros.

LeetriSep 7, 20151 votes

Hell, the newest maps are literally just "Disregard EVERYTHING else and get the objective to win".

warpenguin555Sep 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot should remove damage types and armor types. In HotS everything does the damage it says it does and the game is fine.

theres a reason why they arent on top

RaptameiSep 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

theres a reason why they arent on top

"Five years later".

Dregn hunSep 7, 20152 votes

League is probably still the largest moba, and HotS is disappeared somewhere....

DarthSpectrumSep 7, 20154 votes

True damage on melee champions that scales with an offensive stat is somewhat manageable. (ie. MasterYi Fiora Chogath ) You can kite them, and their true damage isn't so out of hand since they will have to forgo tank items to increase their damage.

However, true damage on ranged champions ( Vayne ) or true damage that doesn't need offensive stats ( Garen ) are problematic. Vayne's true damage isn't avoidable for most champions. If you can do damage to her, she can do damage back to you unless you're a long range mage such as Viktor, Xerath, or Azir. Of course, assassins can try to burst her down, but Vayne has insanely powerful self peel to keep them at bay.

Garen on the other hand can build full tank and be guaranteed to deal at least 50% health of the largest threat on the enemy team.

The Yetii RiderSep 7, 20153 votes

Except that Vayne and Fiora are both duelists with kits that are designed to 1v1. Morello stated the counterplay against Vayne was "bring another person". That's not appropriate counterplay.

Garen is an assassin at this point, and his ultimate deals so much point and click true damage that you can't "counterplay" that.

The LovelessSep 7, 20153 votes

{quoted} Garen is an assassin at this point

LOL

The Yetii RiderSep 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQwfINeg,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2015-09-07T07:17:12.850+0000)

LOL

Hey, it's true. He jumps on the enemy Villain, silences them (like LB/Kass/Talon) and then shreds them down with true damage and point and click executes them.

Assassins are characterized by low-counterplay burst, and that's what Garen brings.

The LovelessSep 7, 20151 votes

ik, I'm laughing because it's true but something I never thought to call him

AbyssphereSep 6, 20152 votes

Can't agree more with this thread. It baffles me that people are so happy to create and upvote threads with titles like "%HP True Damage has no counterplay". Buying items IS NOT counterplay and never has been - there's generally MORE counterplay to this type of damage than almost every other type of damage because it needs to be hard to pull off because of how strong it is. Don't pretend that it's just as easy for Fiora to hit her vitals as it is for her to auto you full stop.

OnegarionSep 6, 20156 votes

Items are counter play though. QSS is great counter play to champs like Ashe, Zed, Skarner. Zhonyas is counter play in the same regard. Not they aren't the only counter play and they should never be the first and best form of counter play, but to say that counter building isn't a form of counter play is a little off imo. I think it has a divisional breakdown with Counter building being the simplest and easiest.

Aeolian MelodiesSep 6, 20155 votes

Hard to pull off? Vayne pls

The Sword SaintSep 6, 20151 votes

If they put any effort into actively trying to stop you from hitting the vitals, you can easily have it time out before she can hit a fourth one and then there's no heal - in which case its like fiora didn't have an ultimate at all since the ult vitals are exactly the same as her normal passive vitals.

DexrazorSep 7, 20152 votes

Lets be real now. Fiora doesn't need to hit you on all four sides. Its much easier to just kill you and get the heal.

AbyssphereSep 6, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQwfINeg,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-09-06T20:23:30.746+0000)

Hard to pull off? pls

Eh. Silver Bolts is rather easy but for a "after three hits" ability it's one of the more difficult ones, just because it's the only one where you can only apply the stacks to one person at a time, and you lose all the stacks if you change target. Not difficult, but comparatively so.

But Fiora's is a much better example of difficulty needing just reward, I'll admit.