PSA: CC is actually NOT equally effective against different champions.

The Sword Saint··110 votes·4,502 views

This essay is listed in my "Master List of Essay Threads" under the title "On CC Effects Different Champions Differently"


I see this dumb argument come up so often when literally any effort to think about it reveals the truth: No, actually, different champions have different levels of weakness to cc. In general, there's a sliding scale of effectiveness of cc:

If you cc a squishy short ranged mage/assassin like katarina when she jumps into a team fight she dies and contributes nothing to the fight.

If you cc a 'light fighter' like riven, fiora, or pantheon, they will probably either die outright or be so low that they have to disengage from the team fight they might buy merc treads if they are being cautious of your cc and that could be the difference between them escaping alive from the fight or dying from the first cc.

If you cc a tanky mage like ryze, ekko, or diana you'll probably disrupt their attack patterns and force them to fall back, but they probbably will just hang out behind their backline until their important cooldowns are up and look for a chance to go back in. Their shields, durability, and ability to drop massive damage in under a second is enough reason for them to risk going back in unlike a low hp light fighter who risks just dying before doing anything if they try to reengage.

If you cc a fighter (or 'juggernaught') in a teamfight, you've probably forced them to switch targets but they'll probably not die in the duration of the cc. They also probably have merc treads if your team has a lot of cc so you don't even get the full duration.

If you cc a full tank like nautelous or leona in a team fight, you only delay them for a second or two and then they go back to locking your team down. They probably took no real damage at all during the cc duration. They almost certaintly have merc treads if your team has a lot of cc so you don't even get the full duration.

This is ofc not even considering exceptions such as those with innate tenacity/cc immunity such as irelia, olaf, poppy or those with invulnerability durations such as kayle, tryndamere which make them more or less susceptible to cc. CC olaf at a key moment and force his ult out which makes him squishier, cc trynd or kayle during their ults and they'll die soon after since they build glass and rely on that invulnerability to teamfight.

TLDR: Actually, 'just cc them' IS in fact a viable counterplay option since cc really does impact champions differently. CC an ulting kat to win a teamfight, cc the enemy leona and waste your cooldown (especially if she's already blown her full combo).

62 Comments

Icestar118632 votes

Thank you. This really needed to be said, and you did it better than I could have.

The Sword Saint10 votes

I just get tired of seeing this over and over. Hopefully this thread will at least slow down this nonsense for a little while.

manbearswine3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nH4Lq9aY,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-09-06T17:48:38.054+0000)

I just get tired of seeing this over and over. Hopefully this thread will at least slow down this nonsense for a little while.

Somebody's optimistic.

50000000000000004 votes

Knowledge is not an effective CC for trolls.

Captain Aishi15 votes

CC a swain with his ult active and he still gets a triple kill :P

Tails Doll1 votes

CC a Swain before he gets his ult active and he presses zhonya and was all K. There is no winning with that guy, please nerf. /s

Durzaka7 votes

Thank fucking god.

Ive said this before, but also get downvoted by idiots who dont comprehend it.

saying Just CC isnt the be all to end all answer, but it means a helluva alot for some champions like Kat, than it does to someone like Malphite.

Caeler7 votes

Except the argument is usually in response to somebody saying "Just CC them", which applies to literally every champion in the game regardless of whether or not it's more or less effective against specific champions.

If we apply your reasoning: Person 1: Champion X doesn't have counterplay Person 2: Just CC them Person 1: That's literally every champion in the game Person 2: It's more effective against this one though

This is a valid argument, but only because the original claim was too extreme and is objectively falsifiable. It's not so much of an argument as it is a fact. Every champion has some sort of counterplay. The problem is that some champions don't have enough.

This is what a subjective argument might look like: Person 1: Champion X doesn't have enough counterplay Person 2: Just CC them Person 1: That's literally every champion in the game Person 2: It's more effective against this one though Person 1: This champion has little counterplay aside from CC, which still applies to every champion in the game. There is no counterplay to this specific champion that I would not find on every other champion in the game (the CC and focus arguments).

Yes, CC is a viable counterplay option. The problem is when it's the champion's only counterplay. The less counterplay a champion has, the worse it feels to play against them and the harder it is to shut them down.

The Sword Saint3 votes

The issue is that often times by the time you get to the point where 'just cc them' is one of the only options, you're talking about a 10/0 riven/yi/katarina/yasuo/etc.. At some point you have to take responsability for the earlier fuckups in the game. There were plenty of other times when they were less fed when you could have counterplayed them in other ways, but people want to whine that an overfed glass cannon can blow them up and to those people i say - "just cc them and their gold lead won't matter, all that damage on that yi won't save him, from being 100-0 during a stun'.

Caeler4 votes

They don't have to be ridiculously fed to have little counterplay, nor do they even have to be strong champions. I'm referring to champions whose lack of counterplay stems from their design and not from them obtaining massive gold leads and snowballing the game. Poppy and Yorick, for example, have ridiculously little counterplay and don't need to be fed to feel like shit to play against. When you play against them it feels like you're being beaten due to unfair design rather than from the enemy being better than you. It's part of the reason why they've both been left in a weak state until their reworks come through.

SlaktarTasken1 votes

Sir, please take my upvote.

TurquoiseYoshi5 votes

Depends on the CC. Stunning a tank will do very little, but silencing then can do quite a bit. Slowing a mage will do next to nothing, but knocking them into you can basically win a teamfight for you.

Dextix LT5 votes

And in the end. everyone who gets cced cannot do their jobs.

Even cced tanks can mean difference between win or lose because then they couldnt use their cc.

Yes, some champs have temporary immunity to cc in which they arent affected and some have tenacity in their kits.

You know why this is said? Because people are tired of hearing the same "JUST CC THEM NAB" "argument" in every diccussion. Someone too strong? CC. This is why this has to be said, because the cc "argument" is fcking annoying.

JustMyBassCannon24 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nH4Lq9aY,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-06T18:47:30.817+0000)

And in the end. everyone who gets cced cannot do their jobs.

False.

Even cced tanks can mean difference between win or lose because then they couldnt use their cc.

And now they took your CC instead of, say, their squishy carry or assassin that now does not need to worry about getting locked down.

So the tank is still doing the job of soaking focus from the enemy team.

Because that is one of the two main jobs of a tank.

This has been Captain Obvious, explaining the obvious to you.

Yes, some champs have temporary immunity to cc in which they arent affected and some have tenacity in their kits.

You know why this is said? Because people are tired of hearing the same "JUST CC THEM NAB" "argument" in every discussion. Someone too strong? CC. This is why this has to be said, because the cc "argument" is fcking annoying.

  1. You don't need to self-censor "fucking"
  2. It's not used in every discussion, only in every relevant discussion. People complaining about Malphite, Rammus or Leona don't get the response "just CC them," it's the people complaining about Master Yi, Katarina and Riven.
The Sword Saint5 votes

Right, it's when people complain about glass cannon melee squishies that 'just cc them' gets thrown around most often because, what with being melee and in the middle of your team, if you cc them they are going to instantly die.

manbearswine7 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nH4Lq9aY,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-09-06T19:49:21.653+0000)

Right, it's when people complain about glass cannon melee squishies that 'just cc them' gets thrown around most often because, what with being melee and in the middle of your team, if you cc them they are going to instantly die.

Might be worth noting they often have tools to mess with that,like yi/fizz untargetability,fioras w,or mobility to cc with counterplay,that's why it's more of ""just" counterpick them with point click/instant cc" than "just cc them".

And then assassins whine that annie has no counterplay >_>

The Sword Saint3 votes

Well if a champion has the ability to not get cc'd and blown up if timed right, the obvious P.S. would be, don't be super obvious about your timing.

manbearswine4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nH4Lq9aY,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-06T23:20:55.172+0000)

Well if a champion has the ability to not get cc'd and blown up if timed right, the obvious P.S. would be, don't be super obvious about your timing.

See unfortunately that's how counterplay works,you're supposed to see something first,if you get hit by a skillshot when playing yasuo/fizz/etc then you are playing bad(unless it's out of fog of war or something),it has nothing to do with your opponents.

If fizz dodges annies ult,then good for him,that's an outplay,if he dodge's luxs snare that just means he doesn't suck.

The Sword Saint2 votes

Unless she held her snare until after he used his e to gapcloser or do damage or dodge another big spell someone else through out.

manbearswine4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nH4Lq9aY,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-06T23:36:00.666+0000)

Unless she held her snare until after he used his e to gapcloser or do damage or dodge another big spell someone else through out.

Nah you can't do that anymore.

Used to be you could bait his e by dying,then using tp revive to counter it,but they removed revive,so that doesn't work anymore.

On a less "ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!" note,you can't do that,he's an assassin,in fact all of these guys are crazy bursters/dpsers,they need to be cced right this fucking instant or the fight is over,if you wait for him to use his e his target will be dead by the time he does so,then he will zhonyas,and e again,you're just out of options so you pick annie/lulu/etc instead.

DaddyAvo1 votes

You can't bait his Troll-pole. Yea, that's how why I lost to a fizz, playing Veigar...OH WAIT I won. I baited his shit. I rekt'd his face. Then again, I do have 4 abilities that can bait it. I use my q, or w to bait it. Then I ult his face, since he is squishy as sin, and I am dealing 1K damage with just the ult

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

You can't bait his Troll-pole.

Sure you can... if he's some bronze trasher. Otherwise relying on your opponent to suck balls isn't a very serious approach, sure it might work in bronze, but once people grow a brain you can't rely on them being morons anymore.

Yea, that's how why I lost to a fizz, playing Veigar...OH WAIT I won. I baited his shit. I rekt'd his face.

Oh a great, and trasher beat another trasher and is now boasting, someone give this guy a medal, I hear beating trash is hard.

Then again, I do have 4 abilities that can bait it. I use my q, or w to bait it. Then I ult his face, since he is squishy as sin, and I am dealing 1K damage with just the ult

If only there was some item which granted invunerability which is core on fizz and he could use it to avoid veigars ult when he got enough ap.

Nice reply after a year though.

Kuroi864 votes

Pretty much this. If a tank knows the enemy team has a lot of CC, then he's going to get merc treads. On top of the Tenacious mastery means tanks will typically only suffer for 55% of the CC duration. At the end of the day, a tank really doesn't care if you CC him, that just means you've less CC to throw down on their damage dealers who are now swooping in.

Kingopants4 votes

Also remember that CC depends on the champion itself as well. If a champion has a lot of escapes then CC will NOT be as effective unless you have immediate burst.

So if you CC someone with a lot of peel like Yasuo when In front of your minions, Riven, Vayne, Janna, Ziggs, Azir then try to do it when you can Hard burst them since they likely make a lot better getaway than someone like Oriana or Ashe who won't be able to escape once it's over.

arcinex3 votes

CC the olaf Kappa

SlaktarTasken1 votes

Lel.^^

warpenguin5552 votes

well ya. but still thanks for posting it

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

well ya. but still thanks for posting it

It'd honestly surprise you just how many people would disagree with the OP of this thread. Every Kat thread gets a dozen "CC works on everyone, idiot" responses.

Fiveofswords2 votes

its easier to just kill yi than to cc him, especially if its one of those noob yi who go glass cannon. But of course most people dont think of killing them, they decide to try to run away from him.

yeah...i love watching that. people trying to beat yi by running away from him.

it seems kinda pointless also to cc a 'squishy' champ that would probably be simply burst down to death easily enough. remember that killing someone is a very effective form of cc...its like a 30 second 'stun' haha...and you also get gold for it. All things being equal i would always prefer straight damage over cc...but all things are not equal. if you can stun someone attacking the adc (who is doing his job and shooting things) then that can make a big difference. and its not about 'what that champion is' but rather what its threatening at that moment in the position of the teamfight.

TotalJerk1 votes

I hate that shit, I remember a Diana flanked my last 2 surviving teammates while they were taking an inhib turret. Their reaction? Run. They didn't even TRY to kill her.

You don't run from assasins, you either kill them or die.

WolfBV1 votes

So I'm not supposed to go glass cannon Yi. .-.

Fiveofswords1 votes

at least get something. i get so amused by all the yis i see that just die from 2 adc autoattacks in late game.

TotalJerk1 votes

Not against good players, no.

Frikgeek2 votes

Vayne summoner 1 item 3139 Just CC her mate :^)

This argument can be stupid because it's often used to defend blatantly overpowered champions who happen to be vulnerable to CC because they're squishy damage dealers. It was used to defend Azir and pre-nerf Cassio even though they outclassed every other midlaner in their strong phase. Just because all squishy damage dealers are vulnerable to CC doesn't mean a squishy damage dealer with 50% more damage and 50% more mobility than others in his class isn't overpowered.

The Sword Saint2 votes

Noone said that you can't nerf squishy champs. This is purely aimed at 'hur dur, squishy champ x (especially if x is melee) gets fed and 1v5s'.

Verxint2 votes

I agree. I wouldn't tell people to "just cc and focus" a Darius like you would a Kat, because Darius wants to be in the middle of everyone brawling it out. Taking out someone like Darius is more about protecting your DPS and not getting dunked and letting him go off.

SlaktarTasken2 votes

I fully approve of this OP, I've long claimed that champs have different sensitivity to cc, and thus the "just cc" argument has different validity depending on whom the target is.

Kata whom several already have named is probably the most obvious champion in the game to "just cc", since it more or less wrecks her given she isn't fed enough to 100-0 your carries before the cc lands (some cc do have some kind of delay before landing). Take Taric for an instance, his E missile speed is quite slow, so given he uses it from max range it sometimes won't be enough to save your carries, thus I'd say quick or instant cc's, like a Malph ult, Vi Q or Annie's Tibbers/W, are probably more reliable for shutting her down. Ofc, Taric can work just as fine, given you time your engage/peel very well, but I personally feel it's harder, just something to think about.

Baron of Bread1 votes

The actual range of the person you are CCing is unimportant. What matters is if they are in your range. If I am Vel'Koz, then CC on an enemy Yi is no more effective than CC on any enemy I could kill in one rotation or less (such as an Azir or Xerath).

The Sword Saint3 votes

But if the're melee and get cc'd, chances are they are gonna be in the range of a lot more of your teamates then if they were lux and got cc'd, just because of how the champion needs to be played.

High51 votes

I dislike generalizations, but hard CC works against many carry players. Picking champions that can neither disengage from hard CC nor have hard CC is going to be weaker in this meta.

For example, Elise is stong, Cassiopeia Jinx KogMaw are weaker picks. They're still viable, but you have to build teams around them to keep them safe and let them carry.

If you have no hard CC on your team, it's going to eb a tough go if the other team can either just tank or kite your team around. CC in many cases is going to be strong if you target the right champs. So, that should have really been the title of the post.

TLDR; Target the right champs with your CC. Same goes for damage.

The Sword Saint3 votes

The post title is aimed at the people who always post 'everyone is countered by cc so that isn't relevant' in threads about yi, katarina, riven, etc. anytime someone brings up that a single hard cc would get that champ killed even if fed super hard in a team fight.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Well... CC an ulting Kat as one of the very very few champs left who has a targeted, no-cast-time interrupt would be the right thing to say. Even a few daggers is 700 damage to three people.

The Sword Saint1 votes

Most champs with a knockback/up tend to have instant casts on that spell (other than cho, but he has a instant silence anyway).

7 Fires1 votes

I think you could also point out the differences between hard and soft CC Ex: Stun Katarina and she can't pull out her combo, therefore, she is vulnerable and will most likely die. However, slowing Katarina doesn't affect her combat capabilities as she can most likely shunpo enough times to virtually cancel out the effect and deal her full combo (only effective when there are no units nearby to shunpo to/ shunpo is on cd).

The Sword Saint1 votes

Soft cc is actually better at dealing with tanks since it tends to be longer duration and more spammable. Olaf axes will peel enemy tanks much better than an ahri charm for example.

7 Fires1 votes

There we go :)

Smitty Manjensen1 votes

When people tell me to just cc Irelia...sigh.

The Lexer1 votes

I would've put it more simply:

If 95% of champions are countered by cc, then why the fk don't you have cc on your team?

The Sword Saint1 votes

Asking why they don't have cc reserved for kat or whoever always gets "OH so I HAVE to reserve a cc JUST FOR THEM. That's CLEARY BROKEN". This is of course regardless of the fact that the entire point of cc is for that kind of thing, and not just a tool to get a kill on someone who's running away.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

But what about Pink Warding Nidalee Spears

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