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Okay, Riot, this time, don't go "we give no fucks" when people tell you their opinions on Ahri nerfs

darkdill··49 votes·5,130 views

Today's PBE changes for Ahri are too harsh. (They might be in the right direction, but they are still too heavy.) Drastic mana cost increase on her Q, range and damage nerfs on her W? What the hell is up with that?

Mind giving some real explanation instead of just ignoring us, plopping down these nerfs, and telling us to shut up ala Peter Griffin?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyftjT_SJfA

Yeah, that's you, Riot.

82 Comments

Abyssphere23 votes

Nerfs were deserved, but these are horrible.

I don't understand why Riot is handing out so many mana nerfs right now. Both Ahri and Cassiopeia getting massively increased costs at a time when people are already detesting the mana regeneration system. Can we really not balance champs in a way that isn't "lol you can't cast your spells as often as you used to", particularly for a champ like Ahri who isn't particularly spammy?

The Ahri "compensation" has been such a failure. All it's done is make her all-in worse with the Charm nerf and then... make her poke worse with the massive W range nerf and Q mana cost increase. The only compensation she has is a movement speed buff that makes it easier to escape skill shots but guess what... you can't afford to use a 100 mana skill every time someone tries to attack you.

It's a complete mess.

Narasimha4 votes

The Ahri "compensation" has been such a failure.

Such a disaster that her winrate plummeted. Except... Wait... What.

Avalon Bright4 votes

It's almost like people have to figure out how to deal with playing against what is essentially a new champ! Jesus christ the stupidity of this community sometimes when it comes to grasping basic logic...

Narasimha2 votes

It's almost like people have to figure out how to deal with playing against what is essentially a new champ!

Funny, last I checked, NONE of her spells changed. Unless she somehow got reworked in the last 1/2 a day, you play against her exactly the same way as before. The only difference is that you should expect a bit more damage from her spells at all times, rather than when she lands an E.

Basic logic would imply that unless her kit actually changed, then you don't need to relearn how to face her.

Sly Foxy4 votes

Basic logic would dictate that because her kit and playstyle DID change (90%+ ms on Q, spamming spells instead of comboing, no damage amp on E), you should need to play against her differently.

Narasimha6 votes

So basically... like original Ahri?

Man, now I actually wonder how many people even remember that.

Chessburger3 votes

There's not many of us left.. Some have played in that time but were noobs and didn't have a good grasp on the game enough to recall such things.

Funny thing is while her winrate did spike to 60,81% in euw diamond soloq on january 28th her winrate has been steadily but surely dropping. A trend that is evident in every region. She's currently 57% winrate, which is still high but not that high keeping the statistical trend in mind. All they needed was to drop 20 damage off W (maybe 0.1 less scaling) and call it a day and see how it stabilizes in a time span of say 2 weeks. Mana cost increases just feel BAD. Rushed 2 dorans and rylai first since the change which has been working great because with moderate usage of skills and good mana management I didn't necessarily need blue. Now I'll have to go ROA or tear to offset the change which will delay a power spike by near 3k gold.

Narasimha2 votes

Man, now I feel ollld. I think I officially qualify as a League Veteran now.

Yeah, I've noticed the drop, and its a good sign. I'm actually going to hold off on further judgement till I get a larger time frame. If its a consistent drop, then its a good thing. Otherwise, it could be trouble.

And I don't think hitting her damage or her mana is the right idea. The main issue now is the massive spike in MS she gets every 7 seconds (less with CDR) and for 75 mana. Increasing her mana costs means it takes her longer, but she can still eventually do it. If anything, I would go after her cooldowns, maybe make her Q start higher, around 10 - 12 seconds than scale down to 8 seconds at max rank.

Sly Foxy1 votes

Been here since Season 2. This is riots chance to become an adult and revert a buff. They never do it. They always go overboard, as if they are afraid to make a mistake or admit they could.

Good nerfs: base mana regen/cds/remove the mistake buff

Bad nerfs: Range nerfs, ult nerfs, scaling nerfs (seriously, why is her scaling so low right now anyway?)

I miss back then when I could play Ahri with rylais and deathcap and not get flamed... for being OP or noob for not buying DFG.

Chessburger1 votes

Dunno, I agree with you but right now as, Riot's past changes dictates, nothing will stop this patch so I'll just roll along and see how it feels.

The speed buff is too strong... everything should be as it is now except the speed buff removed. It becomes more noticeable playing against her a lot... so I've come to this conclusion.

Abyssphere5 votes

{quoted}

Such a disaster that her winrate plummeted. Except... Wait... What.

When did I say anything about her being made weaker? It is quite obvious that she is strong but that is not what I mean and you shouldn't assume people are incapable of thinking about anything other than champion strength.

The reason it's a failure is because it made her a total clusterfuck that they have no idea how to balance. They basically removed half of the skill in her kit, put all her power into VERY easy to use abilities (how hard is it to run away after throwing out a Q, exactly?) and made her a giant lane bully that barely anyone can trade with. And their solution is "let's murder her mana costs and her range!".

They took a champion that would largely have been perfectly fine without DFG and made her a big mess.

Learn 2 Swim9 votes

cause its that time of the year to gut all assassins and have the 1 ADC 4 supports / 2 ADC 3 support games

FUN TIMES

darkdill19 votes

Ahri's not even an assassin anymore. These changes just nerf her straight-up.

Zahz13 votes

{quoted}

Ahri's not even an assassin anymore. These changes just nerf her straight-up.

shes suppose to primarily be a mage in the first place. Assassin play style took over her kit and they are bringing it back

Maplecrest1 votes

Lots of things are supposed to be other things and they're not, yet they're much more fun that way. Quinn top is a good example, or Trist-mid back then.

Chessburger3 votes

She's not an assassin since the DFG was removed and damage amp on charm removed... She's been a straight up mage since the last patch.

fwL7umeoQe9 votes

I like how Riot buffs Ahri's W cause it sucked, then immediately nerf it

DeusVult7 votes

Riot: We want Ahri to be strong

Ahri becomes strong

Riot: Fuck, bring out the nerf hammer again

Riot, I have 0 idea what your balance team is doing, but it seems like they are just as lost in what they are doing as we are trying to follow them

Aaravos6 votes

First Syndra then Fizz adn Akali and now Ahri. Its a sport for them how to fuck up burst orientated champions. I bet Kata and maybe Zed will be the next on the blacklist.

Maplecrest1 votes

Zed already is, actually.

Maplecrest1 votes

Zed already is, actually.

Sir ArmaMalum6 votes

The Q move speed along with her ult makes her super safe.

That and the W targeting changes weren't something that could be easily predicted as far as how it affected her. I don't play Ahri but from what I've heard her W is a lot more potent now.

Transferring damage to more utility on Ahri due to the DFG removal in the previous patch wasn't a 1:1 trade, utility/mobility can always veer very out of control as far as balance goes very easily and these changes reflect Riot realizing this and iterating to see if they want to keep the mobility in trade for a bit of her damage. With these changes one will have to use her mobility a bit more aggressively to get the same amount of damage and can't simply spam Q's all day.

And technically could you not also argue that the range nerf on the W also gives you more control over what it targets?

Auryiel6 votes

TBH when I saw the mana cost nerf I laughed out loud

Just... what the actual fuck XD

The rest is just to be expected, tbh

I've given up on loving champions a long time ago. Any time a champion becomes good, they stay that way two weeks and then become trash for 8 months. Nowadays it's even worse because after being in the dump for 8 months they rework the champion and you can't even recognize it anymore. Well, except for an exception or two but that's another matter

Matezoide5 votes

The nerfs are deserved. Get over it.

"Bwaaahhh i cant spam skills anymore" it is almost like Mana is supposed to limit your skills and force you to use them inteligently instead of mindless spam. It is not like that will even matter after the lane is over.

Every single time Ahri gets a change and we get all this mindless QQ, Jesus Christ.

lol "But the win-rate is high because people dont know how play against her!" It is almost like a lot of people arent too used to using her right now too.

You people QQ'ed like hell about how hard this mini-rework gutted her, then you end up being completely wrong as usual. Fucking shut up for once and see where these nerfs will take her. She will still be in a better spot than most champs in the game even if she ends up weaker than pre-rework.

People are actually comparing her to Olaf, what the fuck

ThePlasticSpork2 votes

{quoted}

The nerfs are deserved. Get over it.

"Bwaaahhh i cant spam skills anymore" it is almost like Mana is supposed to limit your skills and force you to use them inteligently instead of mindless spam. It is not like that will even matter after the lane is over.

Zed Yasuo Azir Akali Katarina LeeSin

You get the idea. There are countless numbers of champions in the game that mindlessly spam.

I'm not really too hugely concerned about the nerfs though. I think she'll still be ok, but more like any mage that's not Azir in the sense that her laning phase is incredibly neutered because of mana costs.

Matezoide1 votes

Of course there are champions that spam. Energy and Resourceless. Ahri is neither. She shouldnt be capable of harassing you in lane whenever she wants and always have enough mana to flee from your jungler.

Azir's mana costs are pretty low, yes. At least Vel'Koz (Who also has low costs) is immobile and entirely skill-shot based.

TehNACHO4 votes

Ahri's win rate shot up hard with the mage rework. She's significantly stronger than ever.

Cratz3 votes

not sure what your definition of nerf is.Ahri is stupid broken right now and is in almost every game.

darkdill6 votes

Do they need to go into serious overkill on the nerfs, though?

RedTrinketGoneHa3 votes

Omg god forbid they add some higher mana cost to a spell that does stupid magic damage ONTOP of true damage, It does more damage lategame than LeBlanc's W and you're lucky it's only 100 mana... I mean If you wanna Q-Q about mana at least look at Talon. I'm sick of these Ahri's spamming their shitty orb cause it costs so little mana and they see fit to just farm with Q, kind of like Syndra before her nerfs... If other mids cannot farm with their abilities at will, there is no reason a select few should... Yes I should complain about Zed in this case, however this thread is not about him... Now lets look at our comparison, Talon. His W costs 60 mana at level 1, does laughable damage, and muh mana pool is only 327, Ahri's orb at level 1 if said nerfs go through, (plz they do), costs 60 mana at level 1 and has a much higher damage range... YOU want to talk about mana issue's? Please, 100 Mana is nothing for a mage, considering the fact that you're going to get Morellonomicon anyways. You wanna use your Q to farm like it's free? Fine get the Talon treatment.

Elphrihaim2 votes

{quoted}

Omg god forbid they add some higher mana cost to a spell that does stupid magic damage ONTOP of true damage,

Ahri's Q does less damage in absolute than most mage spells of similar range/cd in part because it has true damage. :s

Also, 100 Mana is a lot for a Mage given that that's 100 mana at level 9 if Q is maxed.

That in turn means that she won't have a lot of gold to spend to get around that large cost.

At this point in the game, she probably has less than 800 maximum mana.

She's paying a huge portion of her mana for a spell that is about equivalent to other mage spells of lesser costs.

Also, if you're comparing it to Talon's, Talon's W does not do laughable damage.

Additionally it hits in a cone: therefore it has a larger AoE and is better for killing creeps and hitting multiple champions with.

I indirectly agree that Ahri's Q is too strong compared to Talon's W, though this comes in that I think Ahri's Q has way too high an MS haste.

Frikgeek4 votes

About equivalent? What other mage gets 280 base damage and a 0.7 AP ratio on a 100 mana waveclear spell? Annie's W does 250 and costs 110 mana. Brand's W is 255+0.6 and it costs 90 mana. Ziggs, a waveclear mage gets 255+0.65 for 90 mana on his Q(which can only clear half a wave) and 110 mana for his minefield. Lux E is 130 mana for 240+0.6. Ori's W is 250+0.7 for 110 mana.

Face it, 100 mana is completely fair for a waveclear spell in that damage range.

Elphrihaim1 votes

{quoted}

About equivalent?

Huh.

:V Never mind me, I forgot her Q damage was buffed.

[...yes I know that happened a long time ago]

Face it, 100 mana is completely fair for a waveclear spell in that damage range.

I think that if it -only- dealt damage like it used to, this wouldn't be a problem. ,,"

The problem is that her Q now serves as an extremely good waveclear tool while also easily denying enemies the chance to hurt her [aa all three caster minions, throw Q and run away. Sure, you're not getting 6 cs each wave, but you also are basically untouchable]...

Frikgeek1 votes

Yeah, even more reason to up the manacost. Honestly they're taking it easy on her if it's only 100.

Elphrihaim1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, even more reason to up the manacost. Honestly they're taking it easy on her if it's only 100.

Or, y'know

Move the speed to her W

Zahz2 votes

relax. It is just the pbe

Sir ArmaMalum14 votes

In his defense most PBE changes as far as numbers are concerned get through to live. Maybe slightly adjusted, sure, but the direction usually stays the same.

Zahz3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQAvWkWY,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-02-02T21:33:01.779+0000)

In his defense most PBE changes as far as numbers are concerned get through to live. Maybe slightly adjusted, sure, but the direction usually stays the same.

maybe but still. Ahri has been getting tears ever since the change despite her suddenly being seen as doing pretty damn good. To the point of this huge winrate increase she still had the tears flowing. is it really that shocking? She currently has teh highest winrate in the game at like 57

Kingsgrave2 votes

55% winrate with a really high playrate shows that she is far too easy to play.

Her Q got a mana cost increase because she needs to be mana gated in lane with constant spamming due to her healing from passive. her W got less damage but lower CD because its the more skill and positioning intensive ability.

They want people to commit more and position better, since she is a kite mage afterall.

darkdill5 votes

More and more with the "gut mana users and make them burn 24/7" mentality. I really hate how Riot keeps doing that.

Chessburger1 votes

The mentality would be fine and dandy if everyone used mana. What currently happens, not only in mid lane, is a chaotic mess that realistically can't be at equilibrium.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

"Drastic"

darkdill11 votes

100 mana on a spamming skill is rather brutal.

RoyaiChaos2 votes

If Rito listened to players before, Ahri would be even more OP than she is now. Why should they listen now?

Chimprat2 votes

Meanwhile Kassadin gets nerfed after being unviable for the better part of a year. Honestly what the fuck

darkdill2 votes

Actually, that's a damage shift, at least on his W. It's as though Riot wants Kassadin players to build Nashor's Tooth now.

PatMcGroyn1 votes

God, I hope they don't increase her Mana costs. Mana reg is already in such a terrible state as it is. If anything, nerf her damage or something.

Frikgeek3 votes

Mana reg is already in such a terrible state

Oh, I'm sorry you can't spam forever with 1 880g item and never run oom, that must mean manaregen is in a "terrible state". Manaregen is finally where it should be. It lets you spam your shit in a prolonged teamfight, run oom, then have full mana by the time another engagement happens a minute later. Buying a Morello's Evil Tome shouldn't make your manabar a decoration.

PatMcGroyn2 votes

{quoted}

Oh, I'm sorry you can't spam forever with 1 880g item and never run oom, that must mean manaregen is in a "terrible state". Manaregen is finally where it should be. It lets you spam your shit in a prolonged teamfight, run oom, then have full mana by the time another engagement happens a minute later. Buying a Morello's Evil Tome shouldn't make your manabar a decoration.

Yeah, god forbid that I might want to be able to both farm AND teamfight without having to back in between. You're high if you think that Chalice alone fixed your mana problems permanently, before being nerfed to shit.

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