Boards›Gameplay

Math as to why tanks are preforming better in season 6 then season 5. The ratio of 3.5

Irelia Bot··20 votes·2,131 views

IT is not the bonus armor that is the problem it is the base armor. The armor that is always in full effect after the LW changes.

Think of this as a chapter 1 of the game changing to help tanks. How a change in a fundamental item function has thrown a wrench into the game and what might be done to fix it. The game had been balanced around LW effecting 100% of armor for years so there will be clearly negative effects that were not properly calculated for.

This is incomplete in how everything functions together but it is a starting point.

Yes I am saying base armor is currently too high given the high effectiveness of tanks currently. LW items are not intended to be a counter all armor anymore but instead are intended to be highly focused on contending with champs like Malphite or Rammus who might be running around with 200 bonus armor.

LW items work fine for that situation. The issue is when an enemy only has say 50 bonus armor and 75 base armor. This is a within reason amount of both stats to be seen in game.

Compare Mortal reminder to LW of season 5 Mortal Reminder: 50(1-.45) + 75 = 102.5 effective armor season 5 LW: (50 + 75)*(1-.35) 81.25 effective armor

In this case the target needs 262.5 bonus armor to be even with the effectiveness of the old LW higher base armor only increases it but the ratio is 3.5. THis 3.5 ratio works for all numbers be it the 56 bonus and 16 base of thresh or the 365.75 bonus and 104.5 base of a level 18 rammus, it is still a 3.5 bonus to base ratio for deciding if a champs is tankier or less tanky compared to last season when facing an enemy with a LW item.

If you have more then 3.5 times bonus armor compared to base armor you are effectively less tanky then season 5 If you have less then a 3.5 ratio of bonus to compared to base armor you are more tanky then you would have been in season 5.

Just a reminder That is it hard to actually get to 337.5 total armor on a champ who has 75 base armor without buying only Frozen hearts and Omens.

THIS 3.5 BONUS TO BASE ARMOR RATIO FOR ARMOR TO BE LESS EFFECTIVE THEN LAST SEASON IS WHY TANKS AND TANKY CHAMPS ARE PREFORMING BETTER THIS SEASON THEN LAST SEASON NOT "AN ADC META".

WHAT CAN BE DONE about this without reverting the LW changes? Reduce the base armor in some way.

The healthiest change would be to reduce all armor per level gained by about 15%. This would reduce the ratio to about a 2.5 bonus to base ratio. Since base armor at level 1 is completely unaffected by the changes to LW items that can be considered balanced or near balanced. That is why I am suggesting the armor per level be nerfed by about 15%

After that make LW items lose 5% of their bonus armor pen. This would bring it back up to about a 2.75 bonus to base ratio.

Theses 2 changes would make building armor better promoted on it's own but keep it within reason.

I am not saying this is a perfect solution since it would be a buff to the likes of Zed and Talon due to less armor on all champs but I am trying to bring up a point that base armor is proving to be too effective on it's own compared to past seasons.

I am not saying LW changes need to be reverted but that balancing was not completed for the changes which has resulted in tanks being to effective in the game currently.

41 Comments

Piltover Customs4 votes

While I agree with your statement that Last Whisper isn't as effective (35%) don't forget that upgrading it goes to 45% + bonus damage if the tank has more health than you.

But I would also like to point out that you CAN get more flat armor pen this season than last season. item 3147 - 10 Flat item 3156 10 Flat + MR (Also Non-Unique .. so stackable...) item 3142 20 Flat item 3036 45% + up to 15% bonus damage (500 health difference) item 3134 - 10 Flat Runes - 19 Flat Masteries - 7%

Total of a whopping: 69 Flat Armor Penetration + 7% Total + 45% Bonus (Though this shows up as 52% in client and I'm not sure it differentiates)

You can also grab boots to round out your build. Late game you hit like a truck versus any tank :) That extra Serrated Dirk in there? Can also be replaced with whatever item you want.

Edit to add:

  1. item 3071 Can be further used versus super tanks for another 30% armor shred.
  2. Using proper team comps versus super tanks a) Jarvan the IV's Q reduces armor 10-26% b) Kog'Maws Q reduces 12-28% (going to be 20% next patch) c) Sion's E reduces 20% d) Trundle's R reduces 20% e) Vi's third passive proc is 20% f) Wukong's Q is 10-30% g) Nasus E is 20-40 flat h) Rammus's E is 10-30 flat

An armor pen build + any combination of those proper team comps versus tanks can effectively reduce all armor to 0.

Second Edit: Duskblade + Lord Dominik's + Maw of Malmortius + Youmuu's = 12,400 gold. You get 50 flat armor pen, +235 Attack Damage, 40 Magic Resistance, 5% Movement Speed, 10% CDR + active/passives on the items.

Irelia Bot1 votes

I acknowledge that Lord Dominik's Regards adds in another factor. I will bring that up in another post sometime when I feel like doing more math. This is just showing the effective power gained by base armor with preseason changes. Think of this thread as something that can be referred to later on.

Flat armor penetration might have to be tuned down a bit with a change like I am suggesting since this in turn would make it more effective.

Siyther2 votes

all those items dont works well on 90 percent of champs unless ur zed or talon most adc barely use them

Irelia Bot3 votes

Well those items are actually intended to be more assassin focused so that sounds about right.

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

all those items dont works well on 90 percent of champs unless ur zed or talon most adc barely use them

Youmuus is sick on anyone ad.

Siyther1 votes

i will give u that u can build yomuus on any adc but aside from that one why would u build any of the others on anyone but an assassin

CrimsonCobra32 votes

[{quoted}](name=Piltover Customs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oNO2ujG3,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-04-22T02:51:33.264+0000)

While I agree with your statement that Last Whisper isn't as effective (35%) don't forget that upgrading it goes to 45% + bonus damage if the tank has more health than you.

But I would also like to point out that you CAN get more flat armor pen this season than last season. item 3147 - 10 Flat item 3156 10 Flat + MR (Also Non-Unique .. so stackable...) item 3142 20 Flat item 3036 45% + up to 15% bonus damage (500 health difference) item 3134 - 10 Flat Runes - 19 Flat Masteries - 7%

Total of a whopping: 69 Flat Armor Penetration + 7% Total + 45% Bonus (Though this shows up as 52% in client and I'm not sure it differentiates)

You can also grab boots to round out your build. Late game you hit like a truck versus any tank :) That extra Serrated Dirk in there? Can also be replaced with whatever item you want.

Edit to add:

  1. item 3071 Can be further used versus super tanks for another 30% armor shred.
  2. Using proper team comps versus super tanks a) Jarvan the IV's Q reduces armor 10-26% b) Kog'Maws Q reduces 12-28% (going to be 20% next patch) c) Sion's E reduces 20% d) Trundle's R reduces 20% e) Vi's third passive proc is 20% f) Wukong's Q is 10-30% g) Nasus E is 20-40 flat h) Rammus's E is 10-30 flat

An armor pen build + any combination of those proper team comps versus tanks can effectively reduce all armor to 0.

Second Edit: Duskblade + Lord Dominik's + Maw of Malmortius + Youmuu's = 12,400 gold. You get 50 flat armor pen, +235 Attack Damage, 40 Magic Resistance, 5% Movement Speed, 10% CDR + active/passives on the items.

These are all assassin or tank builds. Not too many assassins can afford to whittle down a tank, because they need to dive in to deal damage, which leaves them vulnerable to CC and burst. That's why ADCs usually need to take out the tanks from behind their own tanks. However, those builds shown above are horrible on most ADCs. (Jhin and Lucian are possible exceptions.)

Piltover Customs2 votes

{quoted}

These are all assassin or tank builds. Not too many assassins can afford to whittle down a tank, because they need to dive in to deal damage, which leaves them vulnerable to CC and burst. That's why ADCs usually need to take out the tanks from behind their own tanks. However, those builds shown above are horrible on most ADCs. (Jhin and Lucian are possible exceptions.)

Admittedly they would work well on assassin's yes. That doesn't mean that it doesn't work just as well with an ADC as well. You suggest Jhin and Lucian (I wouldn't on Lucian but I could see the thought process), it works great with anyone with an AS increase as well, Twitch, Draven, Tristana. It works good with poke ADCs as well (Sivir, Varus, Cait, Ezreal).

Most people think ADC's need crit to work well and while it's nice, it doesn't make it the only possible builds. Think of it this way most people will have 50-100 armor other than tanks, depending on level and an armor item. If you start with 19 armor pen and they have 25 armor that's 20% damage reduction. So a normal 100 damage attack does 80. With 19 armor pen the normal would do 94 (94.34).

With the second edit build only: Enemy has 100 Armor, physical attacks have 50% reduction. You have a minimum of 300 damage (Base + 235 bonus), 50 flat armor pen. Enemy has 50 Armor after you remove flat armor pen, or 33.3% Physical Reduction.

Basic Attack does 300 damage - 150 Before Armor Pen or 201 Post Reduction. IF you had a high crit build then your damage would be 50% higher~ than after reduction WHEN you crit. This also is only looking at champions that have 100 armor. If you were against someone with lower armor or you have Last Whisper/Black Cleaver it pays out more than crit does (especially since you aren't relying on crit chance).

CrimsonCobra31 votes

High crit builds tend to get mostly critical strikes after three items, which is about when that build kicks into gear as well. The one thing crit builds have over those armor pen builds is attack speed. Building attack speed on high armor pen builds is impossible, and so you need attack speed runes and masteries, and attack speed buffs in your kit. I could see a few ADCs making this work, among whom I would count Lucian and Tristana for good AD ratios, mobility, and attack speed steroids. (Lucian's passive.) Corki could also make this work, though Corki's a little stranger.

It's not that it's an impossible build, there is simply a trade-off. Potentially higher damage for less frequent damage.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Piltover Customs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oNO2ujG3,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-04-22T02:51:33.264+0000)

While I agree with your statement that Last Whisper isn't as effective (35%) don't forget that upgrading it goes to 45% + bonus damage if the tank has more health than you.

But I would also like to point out that you CAN get more flat armor pen this season than last season. item 3147 - 10 Flat item 3156 10 Flat + MR (Also Non-Unique .. so stackable...) item 3142 20 Flat item 3036 45% + up to 15% bonus damage (500 health difference) item 3134 - 10 Flat Runes - 19 Flat Masteries - 7%

Total of a whopping: 69 Flat Armor Penetration + 7% Total + 45% Bonus (Though this shows up as 52% in client and I'm not sure it differentiates)

You can also grab boots to round out your build. Late game you hit like a truck versus any tank :) That extra Serrated Dirk in there? Can also be replaced with whatever item you want.

Edit to add:

  1. item 3071 Can be further used versus super tanks for another 30% armor shred.
  2. Using proper team comps versus super tanks a) Jarvan the IV's Q reduces armor 10-26% b) Kog'Maws Q reduces 12-28% (going to be 20% next patch) c) Sion's E reduces 20% d) Trundle's R reduces 20% e) Vi's third passive proc is 20% f) Wukong's Q is 10-30% g) Nasus E is 20-40 flat h) Rammus's E is 10-30 flat

An armor pen build + any combination of those proper team comps versus tanks can effectively reduce all armor to 0.

Second Edit: Duskblade + Lord Dominik's + Maw of Malmortius + Youmuu's = 12,400 gold. You get 50 flat armor pen, +235 Attack Damage, 40 Magic Resistance, 5% Movement Speed, 10% CDR + active/passives on the items.

Nasus isnt that great of a tank killer.

Darius ignores 25 percent of total armor with his e passive. In combat with a cleaver hes ignoring 55% total armor. Id probably add him to your list if you want to add susan.

Piltover Customs3 votes

I never claimed he was a good tank killer just that coupled with other people he can bring armor down :)

Shrek Luigi1 votes

Who needs to kill tanks when you can just absorb all the damage they do like a sponge, outscale them, and whop their buddies with the Susan Stick?! Nasus

WinBoat3 votes

I thinK Tanks have always had the upper hand, it's just they go through phases where sometimes they aren't as popular.

In any MMO game out there, the tankier class usually destroys squishies and is hard to kill. League is no different in that aspect because a tank has to have some damage, the problem arises in all these games because the squishy champions and classes have low HP. If they had more HP, it would make dealing with the tanks easier, but at the same time, that would be a huge problem, so sadly, tanks in video games is very hard to balance. The balancing is always with items and trying to fine tune them as a nerf or buff to tanks, but in the end tanks will be tanks.

Irelia Bot7 votes

I am saying that tanks got effectively buffed in most every case by the LW changes.

Sure I did not count in the Lord Dominik's Regards since that is a whole other passive. This is the math on armor only.

I kinda ran our of steam as well so that is for another day but the 3.5 bonus to base Ratio is something that can easily applied anywhere currently.

Skias1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oNO2ujG3,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-04-22T02:28:41.005+0000)

I am saying that tanks got effectively buffed in most every case by the LW changes.

Sure I did not count in the Lord Dominik's Regards since that is a whole other passive. This is the math on armor only.

I kinda ran our of steam as well so that is for another day but the 3.5 bonus to base Ratio is something that can easily applied anywhere currently.

You dont buy mortal to stop tanks though so that arguement is flawed. Ad items and flat armor pen is abundant this season. Its not unreasonable to have 30 flat armor pen without breaking a sweat. I think keystones like grasp and thunderlords have tipped tank damage over the scales a bit. But its prob not base armor.

Irelia Bot2 votes

The key point of this post should be that until a tank gets more then 3.5 times the amount of bonus armor as base armor it is still by all means in a stronger point then last season as far as the effectiveness of armor goes.

THis is not the only factor and you stated one keystone that is having a rather strong impact on them in grasp.

It was a bunch of different things all coming together to get this result.

Big Lincoln3 votes

The healthiest change would be to reduce all armor per level gained by about 15%.

will this come with buffs to certain champions with horrible base armor?

Mordekaiser for example, who has awful base HP on top of his low starting armor.

would this also mean we would see armor buffs on items to even out?

Irelia Bot1 votes

No this is not justification to buff Mord. If it is found to need to be done to some degree then so be it.

This is about balancing tanks to be less resilient when not building much of any armor.

I am jsut suggesting a next step in fixing a game that is out of wack after riot changed something in the game that it has balanced around for years. It needed to be done at some point but it is not balanced in it's current state.

Icestar11863 votes

You seriously think tanks are doing better than they did in the Cinderhulk meta? I may like tanks, but I can't deny that they were a bit OP then.

CrimsonCobra31 votes

{quoted}

You seriously think tanks are doing better than they did in the Cinderhulk meta? I may like tanks, but I can't deny that they were a bit OP then.

That wasn't a meta, that was a craze.

Icestar11861 votes

Terminology aside, it's a relevant comparison to make.

CrimsonCobra31 votes

{quoted}

Terminology aside, it's a relevant comparison to make.

Well, it's a little absurd considering he wasn't speaking of the Cinderhulk craze, which was a relatively short phenomenon, though I will say that it may be important to remember what it was like when tanks were legitimately broken and not just strong, as they are now. The question still remains 'are they disproportianally strong?' and if so, why? The latter of which is the intent of the post. That said, a good basis in the history of your topic is always good.

Irelia Bot2 votes

They were strong for a different reason back then. But they had reliable counters at that point in time in LW effecting all of their armor and BotRK being overall stronger.

LankPants3 votes

If you factor in the 15% bonus damage on Lord Dominick's, which is pretty much always a better item than Mortal Reminder it comes up stronger.

If you look at this graph you can see that for any reasonable set of base (b) and bonus (a) armour Lord Dom's (purple) is stronger than old LW (red).

The reason why tanks seem strong right now is because they can just free stack armour. No need to worry about buying more MR than a SV when their entire pool of magic damage is a tank top and a support.

tempname48642 votes

tanks have been a problem for about a year and Riot is just sitting around worrying about making a game where the rift is 5 mages versus 5 mages and then scrambling to nerf everything and pretend like they didn't see it coming.

Toru Itai1 votes

you meant to say 5 marksmen VS 5 marksmen right?

tempname48641 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toru Itai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oNO2ujG3,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-04-22T17:43:11.454+0000)

you meant to say 5 marksmen VS 5 marksmen right?

no, considering that currently never happens in any level of play, and probably has never happened outside of people trolling

when the mage rework happens trust me, you'll see 4 mage games at a minimum at least once

i played Rammus mid last night to show how stupidly overpowered tanks are, went 2/5/16 against a leblanc just rolling around ganking other lanes, not even farming, and throwing on only armor and one MR item the whole game the leblanc could never do anything to me, despite having 4x my cs at certain times and not even being behind, i was just a wall that was more mobile, and had ridiculous utility that made it extremely easy to win

if i'd played a mage mid i would have to have actually outplayed leblanc, not stood still taking damage until she went oom and then shoving the lane and rolling off with my potions into the bot lane for a free gank

Elwe The Jungler2 votes

Too much tank itens with damage effects (and these with high damage per time). That's the main issue. And keystones...

ImmortalBloodCY2 votes

Are you forgetting item 3036 ? Alot of tanks now have more than 3k HP.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

Darius does not approve.

Get out of here.

Serika Zero2 votes

Wrong. The real reason why tanks are doing better:

ADC got reworked In this rework ADC got HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE buffs (as opposed to the mage nerfs on pbe) so, these ADCs were melting everything. Tanks and assassins alike. To allow tanks to survive a bit and do what they are supposed to do (tank). Riot had to buff the tank items to ADC items level. During the past months, ADCs and their items got slooooooooooooowly nerfed. While tank items stayed the same. So, its a chain reaction. The items tanks have are to strong for current game state. And they were always to strong as far as AP champions were concerned, but nobody gives a fuck about mages anyway.

Maximum Morde2 votes

I don't view this as a problem. Flat pen goes through base armor, and there is enough of that for squishies to murder each other. LW works on bonus armor, on most champs less than before. But that is by design. Tanks were way too squishy. They don't last any longer now than they did then because crit is through the roof this season. There are a couple outliers, but as a whole I think it's in a good state right now, though I wouldn't mind seeing it tilt a little bit further towards durability over damage output.

We just have a difference of opinion on what a fun balance state is. I think AD should be about objective control and be very weak to being counter built. I think Magic damage should cut through champions and fall flat on objectives, and for the most part it does. Magic damage is even weaker to being counter built at the moment, but the high threat level from AD tends to keep that in check, preventing tanks from going all out MR against well balanced teams, and keeping magic damage output pretty relevant throughout the game.

Sahn Uzal2 votes

I haven't read this post yet, but have you taken the fact that marksman itemisation has changed aswell? ADC's used to have around 50% crit chance last season, having 70-100% crit chance is a lot more common now.

Yaskamasandwich2 votes

The reason tanks are winning is because this season is all about early game. All tanks became pigeoned holed into early game, this was cemented in patch 5.16 juggernaut update. Cinderhulk was nerfed to 15% hp bonus and Riot commented that the majority, if not all, of tanks should be early-mid game and majority of adcs be late game, period. Notice how even tank Ekko at a certain point of the game drops flat line. Tank items are cheaper and more effective early game thus the goal is to end the game asap and stomp the enemy.

So fast forward to this season where early game decides most of it and ofcourse you get tanks that are dominating because Riot wanted tanks/tanky melee to be early-mid game champions.

Hullabaloo9072 votes

I think the problem with your premise is that tanks still die really fast to a properly built ADC.

Yaskamasandwich2 votes

{quoted}

I think the problem with your premise is that tanks still die really fast to a properly built ADC.

Exactly when the adcs start getting higher crit chance they melt through tanks like a hot knife through butter. At that point it doesn't matter what the tank is or have, the adc basically removes the tank from the game completely. There are only two tanks that make this exception, minus some possible support tanks. Those two are Malphite who gains an insane amount of armor combined with attack speed slow debuffs. Rammus is the other one who turns the adcs greatest strength against them, their auto attacks. Other than those two every other jungle or top lane tank is butter to adcs come late game. Reason for this is to make the game end at a certain point.

FourVsFive1 votes

Think new items and masteries give tanks a lot of dmg. I been seeing in games where tanks now carry and do most dmg out of all glass cannon builds by far.

Irelia Bot1 votes

This is not the only issue but it is one that people are not seeing or understanding since the effects of % armor pen are by all means hidden.

lofi n chillhop1 votes

buy giant slayer first. giant slayer has a much more significant effect mid-game in 90% of games than last whisper.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

What if they reduced "base" armor but had it grow per level as bonus armor? This would also have the effect of improving the currently useless Unyielding mastery (increase bonus armor/MR by 5%).

So let's take Anivia for example, Base armor 21 (+4 per level) = 89 base armor at 18.

Instead, she could gain 2 base armor and 2 bonus armor per level

Base armor 21 (+2 base per level)(+2 bonus per level) = 55 base armor, 89 total armor at 18. This change has no effect on total armor or on flat armor pen, but would allow LW to be a bit more useful against an armor-stacker.

Spoofghoul1 votes

daaaaayumn bithcing adc's

did the guy just forget the +15% damage from LDR + another 15% from masteries + 10-50% extra crit on average and the infinite cdr/mana so thats + a ton of ability damage

And lets not forget the piles and piles of lifesteal

ADC have more dps then ever

so building more then 3.5x your base armor is usless well id say that kinda sucks for tanks no?

if anything tanks need higher base armor

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Irelia Bot

Riot, Graves has become to strong ever since he stopped smoking
Gameplay48 comments
285
votes
If Ninja tabi is unhelathy for ignoring 12% of auto attack damage
Gameplay210 comments
245
votes
We Nerfed Riven and Irelia's ult Cooldown time because they were always up...
Gameplay230 comments
214
votes
Yasuo should have been an energy champ
Gameplay249 comments
206
votes
Reminder that we use to not have these chests and keys
Gameplay125 comments
197
votes
Who wants a season of marksmen being out of the meta?
Gameplay248 comments
184
votes