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It doesn't matter if she's strong, weak, out of meta, THE meta, her middle name is meta, whatever.

Melledoneus··79 votes·4,766 views

Vayne is horribly unfair to play against if you don't have just the right tools to deal with her.

Most champions after the stealth rework were given trade-offs to their stealth or camouflage (except Kha and Talon, they were basically reworked so it doesn't matter). This was because** stealth CANNOT BE REVEALED ANYMORE.** AT ALL (Unless you're Lee/Lulu/Rengar, but that shouldn't be relevant). So of course stealth champions need to rely on their stealth. Talon no longer has an instant blink and has super low base MS so that his ultimate doesn't turn him into a shooting star, and he actually has counterplay because of his delays now. Wukong is... Wukong, I don't really want to talk about him given what people think of him. And Akali can use hers as an escape tool, but now it's a major tool she has to use because her passive is now counter intuitive.

But Vayne? The closest we got to her becoming a healthy champion was when we saw her stealth duration reduced during her ult whenever she tumbles. When I saw that I thought "YES. They finally did it." Then they reverted it and nerfed her Q a bit only for early game, basically not doing shit to her level 9 power spike. Besides that, it is** not healthy to have such a long stealth duration for somebody who has an unconditional access to it for a relatively long period of time**. Vayne hits hard, shreds hard, has nearly unparalleled mobility when it comes to carries, and does it all while being invisible and occasionally reappearing to chunk your health.

Can we please nerf the stealth duration on her ult? It's nearly impossible to hit her because you can't detect her, she dodged into invisibility so she could be anywhere, she already gets that huge MS boost from her passive during ult, and her autos hit like oncoming traffic on a highway. Nerfing it to .5 seconds would make it better because it rewards Vayne players who rapidly dodge, reposition, and get back to firing while** punishing those that use the stealth to nope an entire team just because no one can see her.**

And for fuck's sake why does her E proc silver bolts.

Signed, #A Bronze tank main who still thinks Vayne is toxic as hell to play against.

Tl;dr: Vayne should not have 1 second of invisibility on a ~2 second cooldown while also having a shit ton of mobility, damage, and movement speed. Nerf the stealth duration to .5 seconds. Fuck Vayne.

129 Comments

Nymzo20 votes

The problem with Vayne is that she's a tank buster while also being an assasin, a duelist and being able to teamfight well.

Anhartamin6 votes

[deleted]

Nymzo10 votes

By your logic, Caitlyn, Twitch, Kog, Tristana, Jhin and Varus would be the only viable ADC

Range doesn't have that much importance in teamfight since most of the threat to the ADC is probably right at their noses. It's about how fast you can deal with the target before they can kill you.

Ence why Vayne is good at teamfight since she can deal with both squishy targets (assasins) and tankier targets like tanks or juggernauts and clean up if anyone is still alive.

And the support should also be there to back her up.

Anidan2 votes

The problem there is the fact that she's a tank buster through way of auto-attacks (which, to be fair, is the easiest way to design one who can reliably do the job) and plenty of steroids. So what happens when you give that tank buster, who does her job by way of auto attacks, inadequate item variety? Then she builds like a typical ADC.

Vayne is funny in that she's actually not badly designed, but the items... well, realistically, they lack variety. Look at possible on-hit routes. They all benefit "attacking as fast as possible", right? Well, they do as long as you're okay solely with flat boosts, which is why on-hit scales for crap unless you have a kit specifically designed to abuse it (see: Yi, reworked Kog). If you let on-hit scale worth something, I'm actually pretty convinced Vayne could take that route by turning her ult AD steroid into an on-hit steroid so it can't crit. Then she wouldn't have a ton of incentive to build for crit, but would have plenty of incentive to build for on-hit which lets her retain her identity as a tank-buster by way of her W, and let her actually do respectable damage with scaling on-hits. This not only accentuates her W, but it emphasizes it even more by making it one of the focal points of her build rather than a neat side benefit she gets while building similarly to every other carry.

Nymzo2 votes

{quoted}

The problem there is the fact that she's a tank buster through way of auto-attacks (which, to be fair, is the easiest way to design one who can reliably do the job)

How do you know that? Were you somehow here at Riot a few years ago when they designed Vayne? Also I'm pretty sure there's other ways to be a tank buster without necesserely having a passif that is active all the time.

Look at KogMaw, he is also a tank buster. However, he's immobile which already make him an ''okay'' adc, has a useless passif in fights (unless he dies) and the cherry on the cake, he is only a tank buster for a short amount of time thanks to his w. He has one job: Stay alive and shoot from afar.

I consider him way more healthier than vayne as a tank buster.

So what happens when you give that tank buster, who does her job by way of auto attacks, inadequate item variety? Then she builds like a typical ADC. Vayne is funny in that she's actually not badly designed, but the items... well, realistically, they lack variety.

Ok stop right here, I don't want to sound rude you have NO idea about what you are talking about.

First of all, the only on hit item that vayne needed to build was item 3087. That item along with item 3031 and the buffs that she got from Riot was the reason why Vayne was pick or ban for some time. Yes it was strong, but this was FAR from being the only issue with her. Even when she was the only adc to build item 3153 along with Kog she was still a problem.

You say that she's actually not badly designed which I'm going to call bullshit for that.

Everyone knows that Vayne's laning phase is weaker than most ADC because of her inability to trade without eating plenty of autos and spells in the process resulting in Vayne and her support to probably lose the lane. Of course you can all counter that by picking an enchanter for your vayne.

But aside from that, this is where things start to go wrong.

Because of vayne obviously better late game, playing against her is like playing on a time limit. If your team is able to get objectives very quickly, then you will be win before vayne become relevant. But if you don't get the objectives fast enough or Vayne's team manage to stall the game out, you will lose the game unless they do a big mistake in teamfight.

As for her kit, there's a lot of problems too.

Her q is a big problem by itself because for most champions's q are meant to be spammable ability. But when you give a dash in the q, this is very disgusting. There's one other champion that has their dash as their q anbd it's Fiora which I also hate her for that btw. The steroid is also stupid considaring she also has the one from her ult

Her w is why allowed to be a tank buster but we all know the problem at this point: max % health true dmg that also burst squishy.

Her e is okay but I don't understand why it needs to proc silver bolt.

And her ult... oh god, I don't remember a ult that gives so much free shit:

  • At level 16, her ult gives her a free item 1038 worth of AD
  • Upgrate her passif, making her able to move very fast.
  • Transform her 2 second dash into a 2 second dash with stealth on it.
Anidan1 votes

Because of vayne obviously better late game, playing against her is like playing on a time limit. If your team is able to get objectives very quickly, then you will be win before vayne become relevant. But if you don't get the objectives fast enough or Vayne's team manage to stall the game out, you will lose the game unless they do a big mistake in teamfight.

So basically, you oppose a character that actually scales..? Might as well just make everyone early-mid-game focused and have absolutely everyone either fall off or level out with those don't fall off in the late game then, right? Because saying someone is badly designed in part because they scale into the late-game is an incredibly weak point in an argument unless the preceding point was "Her early game is very strong" but by your own admission that's false, which invalidates the point of her having a strong late-game being an actual problem: she has to be strong at some point and since this is an asymmetrical multiplayer game some people are going to be strong later in the game.

Her w is why allowed to be a tank buster but we all know the problem at this point: max % health true dmg that also burst squishy.

The reason she bursts squishies is because lackluster item variety forces her to go a AS/Crit route, like every other ADC. And I did point out that her ult gives too much, and I would opt into making her AD into an on-hit so it is incapable of critting, then make her Q bonus damage unable to crit again (if that hasn't already been rolled back), and then implement an actual line of items for on-hit and balance the people who will opt for them to use them without breaking the game. History has shown that Vayne has little problem going for a more on-hit focused build, same as Koggy and Yi, if the game's environment allows for it.

Listen: from the sounds of it, you're conflating your personal biases with actual game design and balance. Saying someone isn't allowed to be a ticking time bomb type of a champion is, by itself, poor design. There's nothing that states that kind of character can't be in this game (after all, any late-game champion is a ticking time bomb by design), and there's nothing that states or even implies that Vayne can't be one of them. You can hold the belief that Kog is a healthier tank buster than Vayne, but if I'm being honest: he functions as a tank buster, but unlike Vayne who's designed to jump around in the action and be in the fray, Kog was designed to be more of an artillery carry - he sits back far behind where everyone else is (within reason), and pelts the enemy from far enough away that they can't even retaliate against him without pushing through his entire team first. Vayne and Kog'maw were designed fundamentally differently despite being balanced around the same core mechanic, that being auto-attacking.

Oh, and about your question of whether I was here for her release? Yes, I started very soon after her release and I understand the environment she was created in and what she was created to do. As I said, (paraphrased) "she is a tank buster that functions primarily through auto attacks (because that's the easiest way to design one)" I never said or even implied it couldn't be accomplished in other ways. However, you're throwing this auto-attacking tank-buster into a pool of items wherein the "On-hit" side is pretty shallow and doesn't even favor her enough to allow her to use it, and the typical AD itemization is much more easily used by her in its place simply because there are far more options than on-hit. This is going to result in a tank-buster that assassinates squishies because of the itemization available to her - not too dissimilar to being killed in just a few hits by Kog'maw from so far away you can't even attempt to fight back if you're immobile.

For one route that she could reasonably go, she's hamstrung by Riot, so she has to go the other route. When the new Rageblade was released and required the same hits for both melee and ranged to get the extra attack, people were trying to use it on Vayne, and when Devourer gave double on-hit activation before that, people would also attempt to use it on Vayne. People evidently want on-hit to work on Vayne, but Riot keeps hitting it against ranged due to other ranged champions as well. On-hit would help to prevent Vayne from assassinating squishies in the time it takes to blink because she won't have the raw throughput damage of crits, while still retaining functionality and emphasis of her W in the build. The Q goes from being a combination offense/defensive tool (for possible Q damage crits) to primarily defensive for her. In doing this, you could remove Silver Bolts from her E to help de-emphasize W for her crit build and put a slightly larger time window for crit to burst, and on-hit would be largely unchanged since its main source of stacks would be from the very fast attacks anyway. But for that to happen, changes would have to come on for on-hit itemization, and it's not an impossibility or an absurdity.

Big Lincoln19 votes

stealth CANNOT BE REVEALED ANYMORE.

This is the bigger problem, friend

The 'pink ward automatically shutting stealth down' was dumb, but completely removing any counter to a mechanic is even worse

DarkRitual6 votes

Red sweepers still let you know where they are, and a number of abilities completely reveal players. Sure, there's no hard counters, but soft counters are plentiful.

P0IS0N IVY3 votes

Stealth champions should just be knocked out of it if they take champion damage tbh.

Brain Errör 40412 votes

Plays tanks: complains that a tank shredder is toxic to play against. Can compute.

Melledoneus9 votes

Well, I'm not even talking about her damage, so me playing tanks should have nothing to do with it.

It's the fact that her stealth duration is so long when she tumbles during ult. It's Kha'Zix levels of slippery, and he's an assassin.

Cosmic Warper9 votes

{quoted}

Well, I'm not even talking about her damage, so me playing tanks should have nothing to do with it.

It's the fact that her stealth duration is so long when she tumbles during ult. It's Kha'Zix levels of slippery, and he's an assassin.

that's the point... she's supposed to be slippery because if she gets caught she dies in the blink of an eye.

Melledoneus11 votes

So do most champions but their mobility doesn't have bullshit levels of stealth attached to it. It's like a Shaco Q with less cast time, a lower cooldown, and more damage attached to it.

AND SHACO IS THE ASSASSIN.

ShaolinToilet8 votes

Lol this guy saying vaynes q with ult is better than shaco q.

Melledoneus2 votes

Honestly Shaco should be ashamed an ADC can outshine his iconic Deceive.

Big Lincoln8 votes

yeah

vayne's just a mobile tank shredder assassin burst DPS marksman

silly tonck mane

Khadaver6 votes

She shreds anything, Insane burst on squishies as well as easily melting tanks.

Brain Errör 4044 votes

Look, this is a 2 way street. She has the damage to 3 shot other adcs just like they have the damage to 3 shot her. Take away that 3 shot damage, and then she can no longer shred tanks nor duel squishies. At that point, what's the point in playing Vayne? Don't get me wrong, I do think she needs a rework, however, you can't say her burst is anymore insane than other ADCs. The only difference is they have more trouble getting their burst off before she gets hers off.

I'd be down with them removing the stealth on Vayne, but I'm going to need more than just an AD steroid on my ultimate. I expect to see major compensations and power shifts.

Khadaver3 votes

But as well as 3 shotting other adcs, she is damaging tanks just as easily. Maybe if her q auto didn't hit squishies for half hp.

Around999People7 votes

Vayne mobile? Since when?

Melledoneus32 votes

1.2 second dash with 1 second stealth attached isn't mobile anymore, I see.

What has this game come to?

Psybicilin3 votes

Who builds essence reaver on Vayne?

Khadaver11 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/b01ed9dccc9d5ccc4dd7411c80e5d3af.png

2 second base cooldown.

Ahristocats24 votes

Vayne doesn't build CDR

vayne is mobile because of her passive+ult and her Q fact that you're being upvoted for saying that vayne builds cdr is really interesting

Chembaron Yamada19 votes

Yes he overestimated there because he was using potential numbers instead of what really happens in game.

General point still holds, though. Having a dash with 2 seconds base cd is pretty mobile on top of her ult and passive ms.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

Don't forget she builds this item 3046

420 grams2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oMcJLPlm,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2017-04-01T19:37:12.297+0000)

Vayne doesn't build CDR

vayne is mobile because of her passive+ult and her Q fact that you're being upvoted for saying that vayne builds cdr is really interesting

To be fair a vayne building crit with an essence reaver gives 30% cdr, which isn't uncommon

Ahristocats5 votes

you're not fair, you're lying Vayne never builds essence reaver, i don't know if vayne builds essence reaver in bronze but it doesn't matter

I'm not saying that vayne is immobile but listing her Q with 40% cdr is terribly dumb

item 3087 item 3031 item 3036 item 3046 item 3026 is what vayne builds in 99% of the time

DarkRitual5 votes

Vayne litereally can't win lane against Caitlyn without constant attention from mid and/or jungle. Vayne players also have a natural inclination to push, which does not help them in this.

Melledoneus12 votes

I'm not talking about certain lane matchups and bad habits of the players. I'm talking about the fact that when she ults you better hope you have enough burst to kill her and that you can land it because hitting a Vayne during her ult period is nigh impossible if they have a brain, and she gains more offensive power during it as well.

DarkRitual2 votes

Vayne can't chase through Zyra or Leona ults. It's a fair trade of ult for ult if you're denying a kill. When she reveals, Ashe can ult her, making hitting followup CC easy. Number of other abilities so the same.

Vayne is rediculously easy to deal with. If you're having a problem dealing with her, then the problem is with you, not with Vayne.

Melledoneus11 votes

{quoted} Vayne is rediculously easy to deal with. If you're having a problem dealing with her, then the problem is with you, not with Vayne.

As I mentioned, she is difficult to deal with IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TOOLS.

Most people are mentioning "this champ can beat her with so-and-so unique mechanic." Well, most other champions are countered by things like armor, health, certain classes, etc. Vayne seems to have a much smaller window of weaknesses.

DarkRitual4 votes

If your team has NO cc or zoning potential, it's still your team's fault for handing Vayne the game on a silver platter.

Melledoneus7 votes

Vayne ignores most types of CC because most CC happen to be skillshots. She gets a dash and a stealth, meaning you can't really detect her and CC her fast enough before she melts your team one crit at a time.

As for zoning, there are few champions that much zoning that Vayne could not simply delete in her range before they get the chance to contribute.

DarkRitual2 votes

She's not immune to cc, you just need to actually have a tiny bit of prediction ability. If she's invis, her tumble isn't up to dodge (outside of late-game anyhow, but if it's gotten this far you've already failed on so many other fronts). There's also a certain expectation of her lane opponents not to be pushed so far out once Vayne hits 6.

You know what Vayne ult does when you're under turret? Not much. Well, unless you still have no CC or Exhaust.

I'll say this again. The problem is not with Vayne, the problem is with how people play against her. You can't just shove and overpower all the time. Sometimes you need to actually play smart.

Melledoneus14 votes

{quoted}

She's not immune to cc, you just need to actually have a tiny bit of prediction ability. If she's invis, her tumble isn't up to dodge (outside of late-game anyhow, but if it's gotten this far you've already failed on so many other fronts). There's also a certain expectation of her lane opponents not to be pushed so far out once Vayne hits 6.

You can't predict a Vayne who just went invisible for a full second with ~500 ms. Unless you're a Madlife Thresh who deserves to play in the LCS (which in that case you're playing against better Vaynes), it just isn't.

You know what Vayne ult does when you're under turret? Not much. Well, unless you still have no CC or Exhaust.

No team fights happen under turret. Most team fights happen around real objectives.

I'll say this again. The problem is not with Vayne, the problem is with how people play against her. You can't just shove and overpower all the time. Sometimes you need to actually play smart.

You can't beat brute strength and slipperyness with just smarts.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

My trick against vayne is simple.

I pick master Yi. I build full crit. I rightclick her. I get +300 gold. And spam 'skill' (Lul) in chat.

She can't escape you if you kill her before she can dash.

Critmaster Garen16 votes

{quoted}

Vayne litereally can't win lane against Caitlyn without constant attention from mid and/or jungle. Vayne players also have a natural inclination to push, which does not help them in this.

and pre rework talon didnt win lane against some champions either. did that make his ability to point and click gapclose on squishies and blow them up fair?

ill say the same as i said in most threads about vayne.

shes shit design without counterplay. she only has counter picks. everything in her kit is either a passive stat boost or a point and click mobility/disengage tool, and cant be played around.

if you dont pick the right champions to beat her, you can basically ff the game at 30 minutes.

what she needs is a rework to give silver bolts a general gameplay counter. and her 3 hit mechanic does shit to accomplish that, since she has multiple tools to prevent you from disengaging out of her auto range. its what riot calls a "false choice mechanic".

something that disguises itself as a gameplay counter but by doing what would be intuitive and try to get out of her auto attack range to deny her her third w stack, youre giving her additional movement speed from her passive and means to stick, which guarantees that third hit.

Chembaron Yamada10 votes

Explained pretty well. Her kit just includes 1 form of counterplay: don't have a wall in your back. And she is able to change that with her tumble too.

Her kit definitely needs more stuff to play around of. Otherwise she will never feel fair.

Divewing3 votes

Or double down on silver bolts but remove the bs damage on Q. She should be allowed to either burst squishes or kill everyone at the same rate; having both is just asinine

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Or double down on silver bolts but remove the bs damage on Q. She should be allowed to either burst squishes or kill everyone at the same rate; having both is just asinine

lmao, half of the damage she deals against beefy targets is already true damage.

how about no? this wold make her even more unfair to deal with. every other champion with % health true damage has a gameplay counter to that damage. be it fioras telegraphed movement and the ability to hide vitals in walls or garens villain mechanic that only applies to 1 specific person with his melee limited kit having integrated counterplay.

all vayne has to do is auto attack any target in front of her to access it. the damage of her w is already way over the top for the fact that you cant play around it.

Dominick Destine5 votes

{quoted}

Vayne is horribly unfair to play against if you don't have just the right tools to deal with her.

Perhaps the same could be said of all champions.

Carl Grimes TWD14 votes

Vayne is horribly unfair to play against if you don't have just the right tools to deal with her.

Stopped reading after this. You don't have the "right tools" to deal with her? Then why do you think you wouldn't be at a disadvantage? Lmfao.

420 grams3 votes

I think kha zix and shaco are bigger problems than vayne. Vayne has to ult AND q to get her stealth, her mobility is relatively low with it (at least Defensively), and she's high dps/low utility. Shaco can press q and is all of a sudden gone and uncatchable, or he can appear right behind you bursting you hard while you're terrified from a trap and slowed from e. Kha zix can stealth in to one shot you, stealth and e out before you have a chance to try to escape.

RogueWill3 votes

Kha zix has to ult as well to get invi? while havign less utility than vayne (Condem>Spikes)

Bonn3 Nuit2 votes

Doesn't sweepers reveal Vayne?

Melledoneus4 votes

Nope. She had full blown stealth, not camouflage.

Bârd3 votes

They reveal her position, but you still can't click on her or see her health bar.

OMGSoAnnoying1 votes

Basically you need something that grants True Sight to break her invisibility.

Ignite will do that, and another good option is red smite from your jungler. I've had many a Teemo scream obscenities at me because I used red smite so I'd have vision when they tried to hide... and then killed them.

Brain Errör 4044 votes

I think ignite lost it's true sight awhile ago.

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