So we're at a point with the coin line

chipndip1·Jul 16, 2017·4 votes·589 views

We can either do the smart thing and do something about its gold generation now, or we can wait until its abuse spreads throughout the lower elos to fix it, which means by then high elo would have been completely plagued by it, which will probably lead to it being completely gutted before the unrest and hate threads die down. What are we gonna do, guys?

I got guys in the Sona club chat talking about the item literally doubling their gold income in comparison to coin...as Sona players, one of the champs that has the MOST synergy with Spellthief's. Something is legitimately wrong with that gold gen on coin.

29 Comments

koshkyraJul 17, 20172 votes

Its balanced around the fact that the other rewards are 1000 times better than coins.

This is being said from a Janna main.

chipndip1Jul 17, 20171 votes

Janna has THE HIGHEST WIN RATE IN THE GAME again and a Janna main is telling me her main gold item is balanced around giving her a ton of dough for doing nothing in lane? Huh, crazy.

koshkyraJul 17, 20171 votes

You realize that the coin reward is the excact duplicate of Jannas passive? Not very useful for Janna.

Janna does not have the highest winrate in the game.
Youre basically saying that Morellonomicon is a broken item because Ahri had a high winrate and she bought this item.

chipndip1Jul 17, 20171 votes

No one cares about the quest reward here. The point is that this item GENS WAY TOO MUCH GOLD (and mana regen by the way), which leads to items, which leads to power spikes. I can make double the amount the enemy support makes by literally doing nothing but walking up to gold coins. It gives the most gold/mana regen for doing the least in the lane. Literally wtf? That isn't balanced. That's moronic.
I'm saying this item makes money for no good reason, and that insane gold gen shot Janna past everyone else in a single patch.

promezeusJul 19, 20171 votes

1 No but she has a possitive winrate against every1 amd only a negative winrate if she has ez as an adc. also there is a reason clouddrake only gives out of combat mvs mvs can mean the differnce between getting hit by any skillshot or not. between the enemy being in range for a gapcloser or not. so giving coin users 8% mvs towards them is pretty strong. now imagine janna with the same pass 2x seems pretty busted. this is all ignoring the retarded mana regen it gives. you can take any support with mana problems. give em coin and now he/she/it will be able to spam her main spell cause reasons.

kda akaliJul 16, 20171 votes

Nope, I see Taric Blitzcrank Bard Sona Lulu building it all the time in low elo. People don't understand how to really counter people using coin but in low elo I don't think the users of coin actually know their abusing it (most supports in low elo don't look at the gold).

promezeusJul 19, 20171 votes

taric and blitz take it for the mana regen. if not for the mana regen they would take the shield over coin anytime (ignoring the gold it currently gives).

ParoeJul 17, 20171 votes

Wait what? @thread Coins gold generation is actually at the same place it was prior to the shield, edge, and coin rework that made coin line absolute shit. Its higher, but the bonuses the item provides are a lot worse.

chipndip1Jul 17, 20171 votes

So buff the other gold gen items is what you're saying? It's making up to double their gold gain.

ParoeJul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So buff the other gold gen items is what you're saying? It's making up to double their gold gain.

I have never seen that happen. If a relic shield is doing what they should be and getting to T3 ASAP they dont lose out on gold. An STE was never meant to compete with relic shield and coin. Coin is making maybe 20% more than shield. However, if shield is holding on to stacks like a moron then of course coin will out-perform.

chipndip1Jul 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I have never seen that happen.

It's happened in every game I played with it today except one, where I was straight up gooned on by ganks constantly. Even then, by the time our lane was demolished, I STILL had more gold on my coin than the enemy Braum had on his shield.

If a relic shield is doing what they should be and getting to T3 ASAP they dont lose out on gold.

Yes they do. Both the other items have cds. Shield's max gold gain is under the assumption that you're getting every cannon possible on top of every melee you can use the remaining charges on, but even then you have a cd. Coin can plop three 40g coins on the ground with no cool downs. You just keep getting them, and the amount is almost as much as a cannon minion after upgrading it even once. It's ridiculous...and that's not even touching on its equally ridiculous mana sustain.

An STE was never meant to compete with relic shield and coin.

But coin's mana sustain is also higher, so why should I buy STE? A bit of on-hit? High elo players are leaving STE in droves for a reason. You're just behind, sir.

Coin is making maybe 20% more than shield. However, if shield is holding on to stacks like a moron then of course coin will out-perform.

Coin out-performs way harder than your "20%" claim. See, you're not paying heed to practicality. Coin has no sacrifice and no cd. Shield has a cd and a decision to make between saving charges to heal or using them for gold generation on the spot. I don't have to make that choice with coin, and if I put you in a bind, you have to use charges on casters rather than cannons, which further decreases your gold gen. Meanwhile I'm getting shit tons of gold and mana not even for doing anything...but just for hanging around the lane, where I just so happen to be hitting you sometimes. Like, why else would Janna's Diamond win rate jump to 55% outside of giving her free gold for doing literally nothing on top of improving her quest reward?

ParoeJul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's happened in every game I played with it today except one, where I was straight up gooned on by ganks constantly. Even then, by the time our lane was demolished, I STILL had more gold on my coin than the enemy Braum had on his shield.

Yes they do. Both the other items have cds. Shield's max gold gain is under the assumption that you're getting every cannon possible on top of every melee you can use the remaining charges on, but even then you have a cd. Coin can plop three 40g coins on the ground with no cool downs. You just keep getting them, and the amount is almost as much as a cannon minion after upgrading it even once. It's ridiculous...and that's not even touching on its equally ridiculous mana sustain.

But coin's mana sustain is also higher, so why should I buy STE? A bit of on-hit? High elo players are leaving STE in droves for a reason. You're just behind, sir.

Coin out-performs way harder than your "20%" claim. See, you're not paying heed to practicality. Coin has no sacrifice and no cd. Shield has a cd and a decision to make between saving charges to heal or using them for gold generation on the spot. I don't have to make that choice with coin, and if I put you in a bind, you have to use charges on casters rather than cannons, which further decreases your gold gen. Meanwhile I'm getting shit tons of gold and mana not even for doing anything...but just for hanging around the lane, where I just so happen to be hitting you sometimes. Like, why else would Janna's Diamond win rate jump to 55% outside of giving her free gold for doing literally nothing on top of improving her quest reward?

SIr.

Coin does not have meaningful stats.
its 25/40 gold per coin. Which you have to pick up. And you generally get 1-2 coins every wave.
Its generation is about the same as relic shield, HOWEVER it is much more reliable which is actually what leads to higher gold generation
You need to understand that coin line has bad stats to make up for its higher generation - it has ALWAYS been like that. Coin is meant to be the "im in the back doing the not feeding thing"; It also had a very potent niche as a top/mid "im going to lose this matchup so im just going to get nomads medallion and focus on not feeding".

Just because an item "makes more gold" doesnt mean its better - in fact, both the other income items (AND THEIR SIGHTSTONE UPGRADES) are miles better in every aspect except gold generation, which the items actives and useful stats more than make up for.

chipndip1Jul 17, 20171 votes

Alright, honestly, it boils down to this: Who do you think is right between LCS/Challenger players and LoL stat sites...or an unranked player back-talking a mid Diamond player? Do you HONESTLY think you're making a case that debunks the current strategies used by the top support players of this game?

Side note: Coin had "pretty good" gen to make up for its lack of combat stats, but double the gen of the other two? You don't think that's overkill for doing PRACTICALLY NOTHING?

rtbf221651412Jul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Alright, honestly, it boils down to this: Who do you think is right between LCS/Challenger players and LoL stat sites...or an unranked player back-talking a mid Diamond player? Do you HONESTLY think you're making a case that debunks the current strategies used by the top support players of this game?

Side note: Coin had "pretty good" gen to make up for its lack of combat stats, but double the gen of the other two? You don't think that's overkill for doing PRACTICALLY NOTHING?

I have an easy counter to this but political talks are not aloud.

So I have another one.

If a professional suicide prevention person said jumping of a cliff prevents suicide, would you believe them?

lul

chipndip1Jul 17, 20172 votes

And to counter your lousy argument:

Are you saying this is comparable to someone intentionally killing their elo? A suicide prevention personnel intentionally telling someone to die is someone that's trying to fail at their job. These guys are using the coin line on supports that would be using STE because they're trying to do their job better. Janna's win rate is once again broken because coin is making her better. Something like this isn't comparable to self-sabotage, so your little joke does nothing but blow chunks.

You have nothing to say that's worth saying beyond this point. I'm ending the conversation here. Stay unranked.

Edit: You're not the guy I was talking to in this reply chain. Nvm...stay Bronze.

rtbf221651412Jul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Edit: You're not the guy I was talking to in this reply chain. Nvm...stay Bronze.

Keep thinking Sona procs STE better than Malzahar my lack of information and experimentation, friend.

rtbf221651412Jul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

one of the champs that has the MOST synergy with Spellthiefs. Something is legitimately wrong with that gold gen on coin.

Malzahar Maokai Annie

chipndip1Jul 17, 20171 votes

Sona AUTO-TARGETS TWO CHAMPS AT NEARLY 1k RANGE. The damage on those suck dick, yes, but it procs the gold gen. No one can gen gold off of STE better than Sona. Literally no one.

ParoeJul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Sona AUTO-TARGETS TWO CHAMPS AT NEARLY 1k RANGE. The damage on those suck dick, yes, but it procs the gold gen. No one can gen gold off of STE better than Sona. Literally no one.

Caitlyn. Caitlyn support wrecks if played with self sufficient ADCs like draven and vayne.

You just poke.... and they cant do anything about it.

chipndip1Jul 17, 20172 votes

I'm gonna pretend you didn't write this.

rtbf221651412Jul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm gonna pretend you didn't write this.

It's still amusing going 45% CDR with Caitlyn.

item 2302 item 3158 item 3071 item 3094 item 3085 item 3022

It takes forever so it's not viable.

Otherwise the amount of effort required is way too high to make it work.

rtbf221651412Jul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Sona AUTO-TARGETS TWO CHAMPS AT NEARLY 1k RANGE. The damage on those suck dick, yes, but it procs the gold gen. No one can gen gold off of STE better than Sona. Literally no one.

...

Except anyone with DoT can abuse it better. She hits two targets.

DoT lasts a while and procs it multiple times.

The passive can be used every 1.25 seconds. Malz E lasts 4 seconds.

1.25 x 3 = 3.75. 3.75 seconds = 3 times.

Yeah, Sona definitely does it better. Kappa

Please learn your champions before you make biased statements at least.

chipndip1Jul 17, 20171 votes

Except Malz isn't a viable support anymore? I don't see what we're doing here?

rtbf221651412Jul 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Except Malz isn't a viable support anymore? I don't see what we're doing here?

Except he is still picked as support?

ParoeJul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

...

Except anyone with DoT can abuse it better. She hits two targets.

DoT lasts a while and procs it multiple times.

The passive can be used every 1.25 seconds. Malz E lasts 4 seconds.

1.25 x 3 = 3.75. 3.75 seconds = 3 times.

Yeah, Sona definitely does it better. Kappa

Please learn your champions before you make biased statements at least.

You.... you do realize DoTs dont proc STE multiple times, right? Malz's E and brands passive were specifically nerfed in that respect. In effect things like cass E, morganas W, and singed Q are DoTs but in the code theyre not. The difference between them is "Damage is dealt over time" and "Damage is dealt per tick".

rtbf221651412Jul 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You.... you do realize DoTs dont proc STE multiple times, right? Malz's E and brands passive were specifically nerfed in that respect. In effect things like cass E, morganas W, and singed Q are DoTs but in the code theyre not. The difference between them is "Damage is dealt over time" and "Damage is dealt per tick".