Delete Zed and Lee Sin or just nerf them to the ground...(Keep Reading)

warpenguin555·Feb 22, 2015·140 votes·6,805 views

If you have ever posted either of those in the title, you get no opinion. You are just super butt hurt and are not helping in the slightest

95 Comments

Kobila2000Feb 22, 201548 votes

I don't think anyone is actually serious when they say that. Most people just want these champions balanced.

DrCyanideFeb 22, 201531 votes

Or equal treatment for all champions.

"If X champions can be nerfed into the ground then slowly brought back up, why can't these other ones?" Something along those lines.

DecaedeusFeb 23, 20152 votes

I don't think asking for (insertFotMchampionhere) to be gutted to the ground will help them be balanced. Asking for them to be gutted/deleted doesn't offer anything to the discussion, and isn't a valid opinion.

Rinky DinkyFeb 22, 201510 votes

I agree.

While I do think that these champions need some power taken away from them, I do think that when they do get changed, they should still be 100% viable in certain situations, just not ALL situations.

I think this about all champions.

KaisadiIIaFeb 22, 20158 votes

Click bait title. gg 11/10 would read again.

(even when I hate posts with "delete X champion".)

BlueBuffandChillFeb 22, 20157 votes

lmao look at lees ratios all over 80% and zed is just fucking op

The Red WardenFeb 22, 201518 votes

Yorick also has 100% ratios for AP and AD but you don't complain about him.

His Q alone has 120%AD (not just bonus, full AD value)

W is a 100% AP ratio that is on click

His E has 100% bonus AD and a whole lot of healing too, while being on click.

Every champion can look broken if you just look at ratios, it is the rest of the ability that matters and how the champ uses them.

ThefriendlyorcFeb 22, 201522 votes

Pretty sure Yorick has no cc like lee, no dashes and mana problems pre tear. Zed/Lee have energy, 2 dashes a piece, stupid safe damage.

The Red WardenFeb 22, 201510 votes

I was not saying Yorick was OP though, he is actually below average.

The person I responded to based Lee's OPness(?) on ratios so I brought up a champion that also has high ratios but is very weak to show that it is everything in an ability that makes it strong, not just the ratios.

With Yorick and many other champions, their kits would look horrendously OP or UP if all you did was look at ratios.

ThefriendlyorcFeb 22, 20151 votes

I wish it were a pretty equal level between Ratios and mobility/utility, I just jungled Hecarim against a Nidalee mid and I wanted to tear my hair out.

She ran us around a wall over and over with no hope of us catching her, until Alistar used flash, thats right, he had to use a summoner to catch a person who has flash as a basic ability. I dont know what to do anymore. I flank, I cc, I do damage, I just cant keep up after the initial engage. Theres no point in playing someone without a dash anymore.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 22, 20151 votes

But Hecarim does have a dash :o

ThefriendlyorcFeb 22, 20151 votes

As an ultimate. I guess the E is a 'dash' when you hit, but its nothing like Nid/Lee/Zed trinity of mobility.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 22, 20152 votes

Yeah, I'm a D5 Hec top main and I know the Nidalee struggle there too. You can smash her all day but 1 spear is all it takes for her to ruin your day with a Takedown. The lane consists of her basic attacking you while you ignore her and when you try to harass she cougar pounces away. Her cougar is on a pretty alright cooldown to punish her transformations but if she lands a spear, even point blank, she gets to cougar again.

ArkenStormFeb 24, 20151 votes

hecarim should/can catch anybody, quite easily. youmuus, trinity, boots of swiftenss with alacrity, movespeed quints, his e and ult?

EDIT: my bad, didn't see the "after the initial engage" part. but youre still flipping fast haha. I agree though, nidalee's cougar form abilities should at least cost mana.

ThefriendlyorcFeb 24, 20151 votes

Yeah, the problem is if you build for speed, she can and WILL rip your face off with her insane scalings after she hits a point blank spear. I've built hec a variety of different ways. MS/AD is the most fun but boy do you die.

ArkenStormFeb 24, 20151 votes

psst...randuins, jungle tank enchant, and spirit visage make you nigh unkillable. just saying. youmuus and trinity are only damage items(unless you count boots of swiftness), and if you arent jungle, instead if youre top, then build zzrot portal. its a really good item, and crazy good with point runner on hecarim

ThefriendlyorcFeb 25, 20151 votes

Yeah in the scenario I had here, I had a tank enchant and SV, she still ripped my face off with a point blank spear. The fact that she only engages when SHE wants to gives her the advantage every time.

ArkenStormFeb 25, 20151 votes

Oh that's your point, my bad, I thought you were emphasizing build. Yeah I agree though. Make cougar form have mana, and badabing badaboom, much easier to handle her

ThefriendlyorcFeb 25, 20151 votes

It really should have mana, I mean... Jayce has a kit similar to Cougar form, heavy melee based execute style attacks and his cost mana. It just never punishes her for wasting her resources. Has anyone ever heard a nid go 'oom'? Ever?

ArkenStormFeb 26, 20151 votes

really though. there is no reason for it NOT to have mana. I just don't get it

BakedLotionFeb 22, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oIH28A0V,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-02-22T15:56:12.756+0000)

also has 100% ratios for AP and AD but you don't complain about him.

His Q alone has 120%AD (not just bonus, full AD value)

W is a 100% AP ratio that is on click

His E has 100% bonus AD and a whole lot of healing too, while being on click.

Every champion can look broken if you just look at ratios, it is the rest of the ability that matters and how the champ uses them.

His Q is an auto attack modifier, so its only like 20% AD bonus, since its his AD (100%) + 20% notice how it says the amount the attack will deal, and not how much bonus dmg it will do. No one builds him AP, and if they do the rest of his kit is useless. His E is his only strong skill with 100% bonus AD. However, it has weak base damage and low range.

The Red WardenFeb 22, 20152 votes

I was not saying Yorick is strong though, honestly he is below average. What I was trying to say is that, if you only look at ratios any champion can look OP or UP.

KarbuncleFeb 22, 20157 votes

You really think people are complaining about Lee and Zed because they're OP on PAPER?!

The Red WardenFeb 22, 20153 votes

I know they're op, the person I initially reponded to said Lee is OP solely based on ratios. Both of those champions are on Riot's safety list though so I somewhat gave up.

Painted CeltFeb 22, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oIH28A0V,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-02-22T15:56:12.756+0000)

also has 100% ratios for AP and AD but you don't complain about him.

His Q alone has 120%AD (not just bonus, full AD value)

W is a 100% AP ratio that is on click

His E has 100% bonus AD and a whole lot of healing too, while being on click.

Every champion can look broken if you just look at ratios, it is the rest of the ability that matters and how the champ uses them.

For me, the thing is that I like seeing a Yorick in the game because he is an uncommon pick and champion diversity helps keep the game interesting. On the other hand, I can't help but sigh when I see a Lee Sin because I have been seeing him frequently pretty much since his release. He never goes out of popularity, and that makes him boring. If Graves were the #1 ADC all last season and the season before, etc., then I would be getting tired of him too, but that's not the case. In fact, Graves was considered a bottom tier ADC a short while ago, but when was the last time Lee Sin was considered bottom tier anything? Lee Sin is popular and powerful in every single meta and that makes things feel stagnant.

Another thing that makes Lee and Zed frustrating beyond just how popular they are, is how high-reward-low-risk they are. It's frustrating to have any tiny mistakes you make punished with death by an opponent who is virtually impossible to punish in the same way. Most people playing against Lee or Zed try to play conservatively and minimize their mistakes just because those champions can punish so hard, yet when a Lee or Zed towerdives and finds that they are unable to finish someone off or their opponent has backup arriving, they just safely hop out and away with no real cost. It seems to me that their ratios are a bit too high for how much safety/flexibility their kits offer.

Kuroi86Feb 22, 20151 votes

I don't know if I would consider popularity a reason to nerf a champion.

I would however point towards the possibility of playing around with several experimental kits that could be swapped out every few weeks that said popular champion could use, each one playing around with different tricks and strengths and use that popularity to test out numerous ideas and even some new mechanics.

JernzyFeb 23, 20151 votes

Lee sin is riot's favorite champion next to riven.

Kuroi86Feb 23, 20151 votes

And people considered her trash tier after the hpregen nerf, which she has only really recovered from at the highest of elos.

BlackRavenFeb 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And people considered her trash tier after the hpregen nerf, which she has only really recovered from at the highest of elos.

shes barely played in high elo. only 5 people in challenger main her and half the time they cant even play her because irelia and gnar are picked. if anything irelia/gnar needs nerfs before riven ever does.

NewspaperNarwhalFeb 23, 20151 votes

"5 people in challenger main her" that means that 5 of the best players in the world main her, and i'm assuming you're only referring to NA. That means that out of 200ish players and 124 champions 5 of them choose to main riven. That's actually a pretty huge amount since you don;t really have the luxury of maining anyone at higher elos at this point, you see them changing between 2-3 champions for each role instead of spamming who they like.

BlackRavenFeb 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"5 people in challenger main her" that means that 5 of the best players in the world main her, and i'm assuming you're only referring to NA. That means that out of 200ish players and 124 champions 5 of them choose to main riven. That's actually a pretty huge amount since you don;t really have the luxury of maining anyone at higher elos at this point, you see them changing between 2-3 champions for each role instead of spamming who they like.

seeing as everyone is complaining about lee sin and zed, where the fuck are the nidalee op threads? or are u all that fucking stupid to think lee more op than nidalee. what can i say you guys, just about what i expected. you are all bandwagon riding morons that have no idea what balance is. if you think lee is op than nidalee needs to get deleted. no one wins 1v1 vs nidalee if she lands a spear or a trap. NO ONE. NO ONE.

captainkaigerFeb 23, 20151 votes

Yes, but Yorick is Feast Then Famine. His laning phase is unstoppable, but afterwards he falls off harder than a 40 pound cinder block falling on your feet unprotected. He's reliant on somebody getting fed to be useful.

Didn't read your post down below, I agree with you.

Mandang0Feb 22, 20157 votes

It's just exaggeration.

When someone like Zed's in need of an actual nerf and Riot's answer is an attack speed lovetap, then asking for a nerf just doesn't seem like it'll cut it anymore.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 22, 20155 votes

When champions are inherently toxic and they don't know how to fix them they just nerf them into the ground, so why not with Zed or Lee Sin? Or right, flashy lcs big play super mobile jump around the map and blow thing ups.

HibekiFeb 22, 20154 votes

Although I believe having untouched reign for (Multiple) seasons is a good reason for being REMOVED, I'd like to see all champions balanced.

Except Nidalee. There is no way to balance that shit.

shadecrapperFeb 22, 20154 votes

Even if Zed was nudged hard, would he still be popular? Or do people play him because how safe and powerfull he is? If they made Zed more mechanics based he would be better off, give him the Fizz treatment.

BlackRavenFeb 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Even if Zed was nudged hard, would he still be popular? Or do people play him because how safe and powerfull he is? If they made Zed more mechanics based he would be better off, give him the Fizz treatment.

fizz is op as fuck right now..

1MazaFeb 23, 20152 votes

Fizz requires more skill to be OP than he did before. Now you at least have to land your ult (a pretty damn slow skillshots that seems to miss a lot when it shouldn't) to explode somebody. Plus he doesn't have much of an escape once he combos you.

D16 QuindiFeb 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fizz requires more skill to be OP than he did before. Now you at least have to land your ult (a pretty damn slow skillshots that seems to miss a lot when it shouldn't) to explode somebody. Plus he doesn't have much of an escape once he combos you.

Agreed buff fizz back to his old state and maybe nerf his utility like ult slow and e slow slightly

shadecrapperFeb 25, 20151 votes

I just think they nurfed the wrong thing, or should have let the Q slide threw allied targets(like jax Q) If they nurfed the damage on his E I think it would have been better. Now you kind of have to E onto your target land some W AA's and then hope to Q out. A little more risk then I like.

warpenguin555Feb 22, 20154 votes

people i urge you... READ THE WHOLE OP. im pretty sure some didnt...

FasmodeyFeb 22, 20153 votes

I hate playing against some champions but I never wanted to gut them from Riot. All champions should be viable.

The Virgin PerryFeb 22, 20152 votes

Lee sins win rate is below 50%. Just thought I would put that out there.

JernzyFeb 23, 20154 votes

Yeah because he's so popular the bronze noobs are playing him.

BlackRavenFeb 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yeah because he's so popular the bronze noobs are playing him.

and the bronze noobs are why he wont get nerfed. lee sin is hard to play.

Big Bang BobFeb 22, 20152 votes

Any champs who dares to beat me doesn't deserve to exist. I am a LC$ pro Big Play$ maker and anyone who can stand up to my Fla$hyPlay$ is obviously OP beyond measure. Here's where I think we should start.

Zed: Is snared for 5 seconds after using his ult. No one screws up my Urgot Big Play$ and get$ away with it.

Lee Sin: Reduce his health by 500, his armor and mr by 100, his base AD by 50, his AD per level by 10, His Q range by 600, his shield strength by 200, ALL of his ratios by 100, and his vision range by 100%.

He was good at everything. Now he's good at nothing but being horrible. Go back to playing your MasterYi and Jax noobs.

Both of them will probably still be OP after this, so we might have to watch and see if their winrate is still above 40%.

Jesus is SaviorFeb 23, 20152 votes

The only champion I want flat-out deleted is Kalista.

Because she's new, and mobility like that on an ADC should not exist in this game.

She's basically a mistake that shouldn't have happened, and, if allowed to stay in her current form, sets the stage for even more BS as more champs get released.

Remember when people were BEGGING Riot to release champs faster? I'd be happy if they never released another champion ever again, if this is the route they're gonna be taking.

ShinjusukeFeb 23, 20152 votes

Or rework them, which if you read any of the threads all the way besides the 2 line ragey ones (like the one you just posted).

The people saying "WOW SO OP NERF INTO OBLIVION" don't get upvotes usually. The threads that actually get upvotes are either "Riot, look, this is fucking ridiculous, do SOMETHING about these champions", joke threads about the balance of them, or actual proposed changes/reworks that aren't obviously olaf'ing the champions.

But whatever. Rage thread writers only read rage threads, I can see how you wouldn't see any of hte good ones :)

1MazaFeb 23, 20152 votes

People just give wrong reasons for what makes the champions OP.

Zed's problem isn't his damage like I think a lot of people assume. (People that say "omg just zhonya's" for example.) Sure he can blow someone up, but it has counterplay. Dodge his Q and that's like 70% of the damage avoided. His problem is his manaless wave clear that let's him stay in lane all day with lifesteal, and the fact that there's no risk in blowing someone up, he can just press R again and be a mile away from danger instantly. You can't punish him even if you dodge the skillshots.

Lee's problem is the damage on his Q being way too high. Sure it has counterplay and the damage is pretty balanced on its own, but he has the best mobility in the game bar Kassadin (RIP Kassadin 2/25/15) and he doesn't have to build ANY damage to nuke people with it. His kit is just too loaded to have an execute. I think that's his only real problem.

Of course my opinions, but this is why I think these two need to be looked at. Lee can be fixed by just removing the execute or nerfing it. Zed probably needs his ult reworked somehow, at least that's the only way I can see to fox it. It's just too safe.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 25, 20151 votes

Those champions are not overpowered, but their kits are overloaded and frustrating to play against. That is perhaps the best reason to rework those champions.