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@Riot; How to tweak the Viktor PBE changes properly

Malicious Metal··93 votes·5,327 views

Now, complaining about a certain change might not do much other than to show Riot our displeasure with the proposed tweaks. What we do need is to find a common ground of changes we can all agree on, constructive criticism. So, after having played the Machine Herald on the PBE I've come to the conclusion that there are a few tweaks necessary to make him more satisfying to play, these changes mostly being aimed at the PBE iteration of his ultimate and E.

Q: Siphon Power This is actually a really nice change, giving Viktor a lot more Sustained damage and durability to fall in line with the other Mages currently being reworked. Coupled with his second Augment he transforms into a real kite machine with these changes and it really helps him out a lot, albeit lowering his burst, something Riot seems to WANT anyways. Good job on these changes, sadly the others aren't even halfway decent

E: Death Ray The Delay is simply way too long, it takes away the smooth feeling of drawing a lazor to tear your opponents to pieces. The PBE version is clunky, struggles against anyone with half a brain cell but gives Vik more wave clear... Wave clear?... The reason Riot nerfed his E in the last patch, him drawing games out too easily? Seriously?...

Most of Vik's high moments come from maximizing his E and it's really darn satisfying to use, it's smooth, it's flashy, it feels powerful. This ability just has to be left alone! But since Vik should burst a bit less we should seek other areas to hit, like the prior mentioned Q or the following R

R: Chaos Storm The reasoning behind this change is a sound one, giving Vik less front up burst but a deadlier teamfight presence with an improved AoE damage cloud. Yet the 2 second damage paradigm feels clunky and makes Rylais so much worse on him. My suggestion is to lower the impact damage and up it's damage/0.5 second to lower his burst and Up his DPS. Not to mention having to maneuver the Storm in a team fight should feel responsive and smooth, which just isn't the case for a 2 second damage interval.

I really hope Viktor gets tweaked accordingly. He was one of the best smaller scale reworks and made him so much more enjoyable to play due to him being responsive, smooth and so darn cool. His damage paradigm should stay as it is, with short delays for his damage as opposed to 1.25-2 second delays that just make him clunky, ress rewarding, less satisfying and all in all less FUN, the latter being of utmost importance.

https://images3.alphacoders.com/555/555815.jpg

65 Comments

IxtaliKing25 votes

Rickless disagrees about Viktor feeling 'clunky' with his changes, he thinks when the community says 'clunky' they mean "requires relearning" lol.

Malicious Metal32 votes

The cast paradigm remained the same, the ability is the same, yet worse due to an increased delay. You don't relearn it, you adapt to having an entire ability require you to stun lock your target for about 2 seconds or else you'll have a really bad time doing any significant damage.

Ugh. Even thinking about this gives me a headache, if he REALLY said people just don't like "relearning" an ability he has no place on whatever team he's on. This is a GAME, a champion has to feel fun and satisfying to play, taking Vik's MOST ICONIC ability and taking away everything that made it great is NOT the way to go.

IxtaliKing11 votes

It's on his twitter: https://twitter.com/ricklessabandon/status/723310305086984192?s=09

Ugh. Even thinking about this gives me a headache, if he REALLY said people just don't like "relearning" an ability he has no place on whatever team he's on.

Angry Karma fans have been saying this for a long time...

sir d wreck4 votes

I'm a Karma fan, but I don't play her anymore. I would play old Karma in a heartbeat though.

IxtaliKing3 votes

Yeah, his 5.10 changes were a massive middle finger to old Karma fans. Not one ounce of respect was shown to old Karma fans and those who liked the rework as it was, outrageous.

Jasiwel9 votes

When a Miss Fortune Bot can literally run away from the Aftershock of Viktor's Death Ray, there is something wrong.

Heck, everyone's main gripe is the Aftershock delay.

IxtaliKing10 votes

Both the E and R changes are hideous, they look terrible on paper and even worse in game. Personally I'm waiting to hear the explanation behind his ult ticking at 2s with increased damage, over keeping the tick rate the same and moving the some of the initial burst to the DoT portion.

Jasiwel4 votes

I feel like R's change will be problematic against Assassins because Viktor won't be able to win that DPS Race anymore. That may be Riot's intention though, but I feel there are better ways to go about it. They made it go from "just like Tibbers" to "worse than Tibbers".

MrWasjig3 votes

Of course he does, because A) It's the changes he put up, obviously he'll defend them. Anyone will defend something of theirs. and B) Saying that "Clunky" just means "needing to relearn" is exactly the kind of corporate response you'd expect to justfiy not having to defend this obvious bullshit :P

IxtaliKing3 votes

He's just awful, he makes me regret spending money on this game.

MrWasjig1 votes

He's by no means the worst though. Give him SOME credit. I don't even play Viktor, but these changes? Fuck 'em.

IxtaliKing2 votes

For me he is, he ruined my 2 of my favourite champs for me already. I will never forgive what he did to Karma.

crippler381 votes

he hasn't ruined vik yet they're not live! unless you're talking another champ.

IxtaliKing2 votes

He ruined Karma for a lot of old Karma fans and people liked who liked her rework before his changes when he took her iconic shield bomb. Azir was also one of my favourite characters, but after he took the knock up he wasn't fun to me personally. Even though I understand why Azir needed the nerfs, I just think they could have done better than that.

arcinex4 votes

Ricklessbandon makes me fckn cringe

ZeeWolfZ19 votes

Unhappy with Poke, yet these Exist:

Ekko Zed Fizz Azir Brand Ahri Ziggs

Why even bother picking Viktor now, 3 Nerfs already. Poor guy. "He had an easy Clear".

MORGANA CAN CLEAR THE WAVE @ lvl 5. -_-

Jasiwel3 votes

You forgot Lux and Orianna in that list. While Orianna isn't even top tier, if these changes go through then Viktor will be as inferior as he was pre-Rework. Before this change and after the last one, I was concerned Viktor would be seen as inferior to Annie/Orianna again. If the changes go through, as is, then conventionally Viktor will be inferior once again. That is not good, at all, and kind of defeats the point of his rework entirely.

RasCaelestis2 votes

As someone that mained Viktor before his first rework, I honestly think he'll be in a worse state than he was back then. Yes, he could only get one Augment, but at least his kit worked with itself more. These changes make almost no sense.

Jasiwel2 votes

Agreed. I'm concerned Riot is doing this too due to his overwhelming presence in KR. IMO, their changes are just changes for the sake of changes; he wasn't in the best spot before, but he's going to be outpicked in nearly every matchup now.

I was Lupxel3 votes

At level 5? From level 3 I see Morgana putting W on floor and... stant still while the wave dies

333lom13 votes

**The delays on E and R should be completely reverted **in my opinion.

Viktor is an aoe burst mage and he should stay like that. He's the leader of the Glorious Evolution, not some dps crybaby which leaks damage over a long period of time. When he appears, he should explode at once, and if he dies, he should die like that as well, in an explosion.

Voluug136 votes

something something burst is unhealthy unless its in Zed

I was Lupxel2 votes

Remember when Zed got a delay on gis ult? (higher than the atual) He became unplayble, sadx their mains.

What Rito does? Lets do it to a whole kit!!

Voluug131 votes

Remember the time they added less that a second of delay to Zed's shadow, and how people massively overreacted to it? It wasnt even a nerf lol

Yeah, the Zed mains are a bunch of crybabies.

HazyCloud713 votes

Let @Ricklessabandon know about this thread guys. He STILL thinks that everyone saying viktor feels clunky = we don't want to re-learn. No, a 1.25 second delay isn't about re-learning. It's about destroying a champion's most iconic ability.

Sahn Uzal3 votes

I wish I could disagree with you... But it's honeslty just true.

IxtaliKing10 votes

Let @Ricklessabandon know about this thread guys. He STILL thinks that everyone saying viktor feels clunky = we don't want to re-learn.

And why should Viktor mains have to relearn him anyway? I was planning to pick up Viktor again since I've become a bit better than I was when I played him before, but with these changes I don't think I'll bother.

No, a 1.25 second delay isn't about re-learning. It's about destroying a champion's most iconic ability.

The guy seems to have a thing for destroying or just outright removing champs iconic abilities, he did this with Karma's shield bomb.

HazyCloud76 votes

Also, how often does anyone get hit by Veigar's W in lane which also has a 1.25 second delay? The answer is NEVER, unless you are stunned by his cage because it's so laughably easy to dodge. This is the same thing, the difference being that Viktor's stun is nowhere near as reliable, or effective in terms of stun duration. It's a zoning tool.

LankPants1 votes

This is the same thing

Well no, it's not really. Veigars W has about triple the AOE. It's actually possible to set up scenarios where an enemy slowed by an ally can't dodge Veigar's E, you won't be able to do that with Vik since the AOE's tiny.

crippler381 votes

isn't vik's a line? I mean it's similar in that sense so you can zone better with it but the delay makes it seem kinda worthless for anything but zoning unless you hit a w

Scramrail4 votes

There are a lot of ways Riot could rebalance his kit to make it work beautifully together, but for some reason they settled on this mess.

They just created a new form of CC, grounded I think its called, which prevents people affected by it from using movement abilities. Now ive always thought his ultimate was very underwhelming as it is currently on live, as its basically just a big dump of damage with nothing much else to show for it. Considering what it is, a black hole, I felt there was a lot they could do with it, especially with his ability evolutions, that could make it really thematically interesting and impactful.

They could easily leave the ability the way it is now on live, but tack on the new grounded CC to anyone caught in its effect. Perhaps they would need to reduce its burst potential a little bit, or perhaps they could shift a considerable portion of its damage to being done over time (keeping the damage interval the same as it is on live, or maybe even speeding it up). Or maybe they change the function of his Ws evolution so that they can shift the "pull to the center" aspect onto his ultimate (really hammer home that "black hole" feel).

Honestly his E feels perfect the way it is on live. It functions the way you would think thematically, in works really well in his kit, and it feels rewarding when you get really good at using it. The change to his E is far and away the biggest mistake in all of this, and its completely unnecessary. I feel like his current E is an excellent representation of a skill shot and an ability that you need to think before you use. Its cooldown means that if you use it to clear a wave, or miss it on a poke attempt, your opponent has a decently sized window of opportunity to punish you, even so far as an enemy team forcing a fight because one of your biggest damage spells is now on cooldown.

Things really clicked when I play Viktor, and he is so far the only champion in my 3 or so years of playing LoL that I can honestly say I FEEL the impact I have in games. Ive played tons of games on tons of champions and he was the only one that ive truly fallen in love with, and now Riot is gutting his identity completely in favor of some kit setup that basically REQUIRES a team to be built around you with HEAVY AoE CC potential so you can get your damage done.

If these Viktor changes go through to live, he will be almost unplayable as a solo because his kit doesn't even work on its own, it needs outside assistance to realize its true potential. And that right there really goes against Viktors thematic as a champion, because this is a man who, COMPLETELY HIMSELF, replaced his entire body with machine parts. VIKTOR DOESNT NEED ANYONE ELSE. THATS THE VERY CORE ESSENCE OF WHO HE IS AS A CHAMPION!

Cpt FreeWin2 votes

Adding the grounded effect to viktor kit would be really a good idea, or to have the dash blocking ability of poppy, but I think it would be more interesting, and coherent to have this on his w (well, that's a gravity field). I posted some suggestions for his kit on another post on this thread. I think his ult have to be changed (graphics and gameplay), because it doesn't feel dangerous, but also kind of slow and annoying to move. I suggested in the mid-year mage update thread to add limited displacement charges to his ult, but as a counterpart make it more reactive and with increased dps.

Adolf Hit R3 votes

That's basically it. The E change will just make him feel awful to play, but the rest are in a reasonable direction.

Personally, I don't see why he needs to be changed at all; he's in a great spot right now.

ForeverLaxx3 votes

If they want to give him his waveclear back, but reduce the amount of upfront damage he deals, the solution should have been obvious and I'm surprised (not really) that Riot didn't go with it -- you make the secondary damage wave from E comprise the majority of his E damage. The only reason I can come up with for why they didn't do that is they might feel it makes the E upgrade "necessary", but since you get to upgrade all of your skills anyway, and they're changing Q to be stronger as a trading skill, it would actually present an early-game choice of upgrading Q for better trading or upgrading E for better wave clear. Instead, they went with an overly long delay on E which ruins the flow of the character.

The change to his ult is just bad. With a 2 second delay between ticks, you'll have cases where your ult could be rubbing the faces of everyone on the enemy team and it will do no damage because of their mobility skills. There was a reason other "DoT zones" were changed to deal damage more frequently, and this new Ult version is the example for why they were changed.

l Helios l3 votes

Now, complaining about a certain change might not do much other than to show Riot our displeasure with the proposed tweaks. What we do need is to find a common ground of changes we can all agree on, constructive criticism.

Goddamn boys. The voice of reason!

R2D202 votes

I'm a simple man, I see a well thought out post, I upvote.

The Loveless2 votes

I never thought his cooldowns were short enough to support a sustained damage/battle mage play style. I say either revert the pbe changes or lower his cooldowns and damage tick intervals.

Arcyvilk2 votes

I agree with you completely. Some of the changes are aimed in the good direction but implemented weirdly (R), and some are just a complete miss (E).

I am pleased with Q changes. On the one hand it is now worth maxing first, if one needs more tankiness (it doesn't scale with level anymore, E secondary explosion has more damage so you have waveclear even when laser is not maxed); and on the other it doesn't scale separately when E is maxed because the level scaling is gone. I like these changes.

The only thing I would change would be shifting power back into AA part of ability - right now point and click the missile is the stronger part, sometimes it doesn't even feel worth to autoattack anymore while having to do it added a fun playpattern to Viktor.

I have nothing more to add to what you said about E. Champion feels laggy because of the delay. Probably no other mage is so team reliant to land a basic ability - the closest being Veigar's Dark Matter after the change to his cage, or Xerath, but in Xerath's case it is a price for his insane range.

R change is in a good direction. Instant AoE burst it offered was too high and probably unfun to Viktor opponent's (although I can't say, I really, really enjoyed it). Shifting the power more into DoT part is a right change, but it should tick more in my opinion. With every consecutive change it feels more and more like a controllable Kennen ult and the uptime of Rylai's slow is only 50% - this way Viktor cannot itemize for utility as effectively as now, and when deprived of utility, he is even more about damage - and the damage got unreliable. Once again, no other mage will be so team reliant.

Unstoppable Monk2 votes

Am I the only one here that thinks Viktor's Q has been a complete sunk cost fallacy and just dicking around with the same form is the most retarded thing you could possibly do in regards to its design?

It hasn't worked since the beginning. Improving it just was a quality of life to make an ability less ass, its his weaker ability in the kit. Even Gravity Field is a stronger cohesive themed ability.

Viktor is being force-designed into a immobile tear / lich bane glass cannon in a league of tanks and gapclosing busted champions environment just to make his Q work and its just plain stupid.

There's a reason why people are like----

"Oooooooorrrrrrr... Just don't, Riot."

It literally looks like whatever team is on this Viktor change chanted the Most Deadly League Phase known as "Hmm" and went "What if I made the worst ability in Viktor's kit into the most important part of his kit?"

This is what happens when you don't take the extra steps to think things through. It's called sleeping on it for a reason. Or perhaps in Riot culture, playing some video games thinking about it instead of working to implement the fullblown cancer idea. This is why they make you play games. -_-

Hey whatever, its not my game and there's easily a better way to thematically tune Viktor into his fantasy. No one gives me sweet upvotes or believes I'll probably not bother to say how.

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

His E only has a 1 second delay now... not that much

IxtaliKing1 votes

Good, now he can fix the R.

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

His R is fine, seems way cooler now, instead of the usual AoE DoT like Kennen/Anivia

IxtaliKing4 votes

Ticking at 2 seconds? :/

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

Yeah, its more like a machine that sends out strong pulses! I like it a lot more.

IxtaliKing1 votes

You're the only person I've seen say this lol

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

That's because Viktor is one of my favorite champions, but I always felt like his ult was really underwhelming. Seriously, after you let out your entire burst, your ult sort of just floats there. You can hover it over people, but it doesnt deal much damage.

If you keep your ult on someone now, you'll actually feel like you're making an impact in their health. I like it D:

IxtaliKing2 votes

Seriously, after you let out your entire burst, your ult sort of just floats there. You can hover it over people, but it doesnt deal much damage.

That's why the most common suggestion from the other concerned Viktor mains is the same concept, but keeping the 0.5s tick rate.

Gnart Even Close1 votes

well spoken as usual. more people should learn from you how to offer constructive criticism. maybe you should make a post someday about how to post on the boards and be constructive =)

Bisaknosp1 votes

i actually never liked the instant second e but this is just overkill

exe31 votes

What's wrong with his laser? Why change it? I particularly dislike the upcoming change that increases the beams speed significantly. A slower beam means you actually have to aim and predict the shot, plus it has the added benefit of just looking really cool as it sweeps across the battlefield leaving destruction in its wake.

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