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Katarina killing lissandra before tomb will even proc

MrSexyHobo··5 votes·746 views

3k hp in less than .4 seconds even though i built mr and was full build. didnt rengar get nerfed for doing this? its not fair for a champ to do that much aoe damage in such a short amount of time then to turn around and do it again and again and again. her kit is the definition of overloaded. her kit is so strong that even though i was 4-1 in lane she could just roam and pick up kills with very little effort.

A champ with that much assassination potential should not also get that much team fighting presence. another thing i noticed is that her abilities proc almost instantly while other champs with weaker kits have clunky ult animations that take way to long. a good example of this besides lissandra is garen. whats the point of having hard cc or an execute if you die before you can use it because it has a second or longer delay while the other champs ult is instant?

i just feel like this game has gotten to the point where riot doesnt care about actually balancing the game anymore. some champs are just stronger for no reason while other champs have really noticeable weaknesses that actually balance them and give them counter play.

17 Comments

Adrian Umbra3 votes

I'd like to see a death recap if you could, though I'm guessing you didn't manage to get one. But by her full build, Kat had about 650 AP. She had Voidstaff, Abyssal, and Sorc shoes giving her 35% + 35 magic pen. You had RoA, Liandry's and Abyssal, giving you a total of 950 additional health and 50 additional MR. You had, by the end of calculations (not counting runes and masteries and assuming level 18) about 80 MR and about 2900 health. With her magic pen, your MR goes down to a meager 17, leaving you with about 3400 effective health.

Kat's quickest damage burst is a simple E-W combo, taking place VERY quickly and dealing 340(+.65AP), hitting you for about 760 damage. If you add on to that her Q, which deals an additional 235 (+.6AP) damage, doing an additional 625 for a total of 1385 damage. This is her quickest burst without her ultimate, which, within half a second would have hit you two times for 75 (+.25AP) each, adding another 475 damage for 1860 damage. A little over half of your effective health. A far cry from what you advertised.

So let's take things up a notch. Assuming she bought Sorcerer's Elixer, she'd then have an additional 40 ability power, coming out to about 700 AP. The additional 50 AP would add (with the total +1.75AP ratio) about 90 damage. For a total of 1950 damage dealt. Kat CANNOT 100-0 you in .5 seconds, mathematically unless something else was going on. She did NOT deal 3k damage to you in .4 seconds.

Edit: What would it take for Kat to 100-0 you with that build? Let's see how much more of Death Lotus you'd have to eat for that to happen. With 1950 damage already dealt and 2 seconds of death Lotus to go, she needs to deal 1450 damage to you.

At 75(+.25AP) per quarter second, Death Lotus would hit you for 250 damage per proc. This would mean an additional 6 procs are necessary, meaning that Kat would have to be two seconds into her ultimate to 100-0 you. But then, you would have had ample time to interrupt her ult with yours and proceed to either escape or wreck her face.

DevilishMetal3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Adrian Umbra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oG3LKEUJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-11T17:06:07.006+0000)

I'd like to see a death recap if you could, though I'm guessing you didn't manage to get one. But by her full build, Kat had about 650 AP. She had Voidstaff, Abyssal, and Sorc shoes giving her 35% + 35 magic pen. You had RoA, Liandry's and Abyssal, giving you a total of 950 additional health and 50 additional MR. You had, by the end of calculations (not counting runes and masteries and assuming level 18) about 80 MR and about 2900 health. With her magic pen, your MR goes down to a meager 17, leaving you with about 3400 effective health.

Kat's quickest damage burst is a simple E-W combo, taking place VERY quickly and dealing 340(+.65AP), hitting you for about 760 damage. If you add on to that her Q, which deals an additional 235 (+.6AP) damage, doing an additional 625 for a total of 1385 damage. This is her quickest burst without her ultimate, which, within half a second would have hit you two times for 75 (+.25AP) each, adding another 475 damage for 1860 damage. A little over half of your effective health. A far cry from what you advertised.

So let's take things up a notch. Assuming she bought Sorcerer's Elixer, she'd then have an additional 40 ability power, coming out to about 700 AP. The additional 50 AP would add (with the total +1.75AP ratio) about 90 damage. For a total of 1950 damage dealt. Kat CANNOT 100-0 you in .5 seconds, mathematically unless something else was going on. She did NOT deal 3k damage to you in .4 seconds.

Edit: What would it take for Kat to 100-0 you with that build? Let's see how much more of Death Lotus you'd have to eat for that to happen. With 1950 damage already dealt and 2 seconds of death Lotus to go, she needs to deal 1450 damage to you.

At 75(+.25AP) per quarter second, Death Lotus would hit you for 250 damage per proc. This would mean an additional 6 procs are necessary, meaning that Kat would have to be two seconds into her ultimate to 100-0 you. But then, you would have had ample time to interrupt her ult with yours and proceed to either escape or wreck her face.

It's always nice to see someone who cares about math as much as me.

Adrian Umbra4 votes

I was on Champion Feedback forums for a while. This was my main way of making sure people who posted exaggerated crap shut up.

Ah, good times.

DevilishMetal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Adrian Umbra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oG3LKEUJ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-11T17:57:14.056+0000)

I was on Champion Feedback forums for a while. This was my main way of making sure people who posted exaggerated crap shut up.

Ah, good times.

I've been working on fast math for common bot/top lane matchups so I know what to do. The only thing that makes up for my appalling lack of mechanical skill is my ability to do math in my head and insane analytic skills. It's why I main Support.

FHMarshy2 votes

I'd say you should put in masteries into the calculation. Havoc gives 3% additional Damage. Devastating Strike gives an additional 6% into MPen

And I actually made the calculation for a full build Kat with the items she had and was sitting at around 670 AP

I'm in the same mind set that he couldn't have died before he had the time to react. But taking the above 2 points into consideration, I'd say Kat could possibly kill him in a bit less than 2 seconds.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

Agreed, there's also the first Dragon buff to consider, giving her 6% more AP. All in all, the calculations are still roughly correct, as OP also had a bit of MR from runes (and possibly masteries, though you'd know more about that than I would since I'm lazy). Roughly two seconds, with the vast majority of damage coming from her ult. OP's still wrong, which is all that matters.

FHMarshy1 votes

Definitely Agree. Possible even third Drag to amplify. But your estimate on MR is really accurate. OP had 6.7 MR in runes and no masteries for that.

Poptart Evelynn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Adrian Umbra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oG3LKEUJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-11T17:06:07.006+0000)

Kat's quickest damage burst is a simple E-W combo

Incorrect, E >Q and using W to cancle the animation of Q then ulting can be done in an instant with practice(this is extremely hard to do though because there is a very small window to do this and if you don't hit it right it can't stop the animation).

Adrian Umbra1 votes

Interesting, didn't know this. Still doesn't allow her to kill him in .4 seconds, but I'll have to keep that in mind.

FHMarshy2 votes

First of all, Kat ganking other lanes and getting fed actually really has nothing to do with her kit. I can play anyone and go gank if I am losing lane. If the lane she ganked didn't have proper vision control or was too extended, any champion could potentially get fed off assist/kill golds~~(My point is that she roaming and getting fed isn't because of her kit.)

Second of all, you were saying that she instagibbed you. So I took my time and checked the match history. That Kat had 23 kills.....23/6/7 on any mage/assassin can most likely instagib anyone. Then let's look at her items. She had Abyssal scepter + void staff. I checked your runes and masteries. I'll do the math for you.

Lissandra has 30 bast MR. You got 6.7 MR(Assuming you were using your AP page) from Runes and none from masteries. You had an Abyssal scepter that gives you 50 MR. By the end of the game you should have 86.7 MR in total.

Void staff ignores 35% of the target's MR, Abyssal scepter gave her MR reducing Aura, MPen from Runes, and she has Sorc boots. Basically she, from her items, and runes, she shredded your MR to basically non-existing. With how fed she was, full item at around 668.43 AP ( im a nerd so i calculated it), it was no wonder that she instagibbed you :( (I didn't even add in the amplified damage when she proc her q stack on you)

I'd say you probably had a second (or less) to have ulted yourself or her when she jumped you and cud've killed her due to her lack of resistance. But yes, a kat THAT fed.....is just not the best for team.

Adrian Umbra2 votes

She didn't instagib him actually, I did the math and it's not possible for her to have killed him that quickly. Even if he had low health teammates all around and Kat was spamming E-W, it would have taken her more than .4 seconds to kill him. He would have had time to ult himself or her, Zhonya's, or flash out.

But you are completely right about roaming not being due to Kat's kit.

FHMarshy2 votes

I was actually considering the full combo unleashed. Q - E - W - R.

Still, 0.4 seconds really counted as instagib to me.....

Also, I did say

"I'd say you probably had a second (or less) to have ulted yourself or her when she jumped you and cud've killed her due to her lack of resistance. But yes, a kat THAT fed.....is just not the best for team."

Adrian Umbra1 votes

This is true, apologies for not reading as closely as I should have.

Poptart Evelynn1 votes

3k hp including mr, assuming a decent amount lets say 40% magic reduction.

At level 18*(because how the hell do you have 3k hp, decent mr, and damage otherwise) Kat 750 ap before resist. Q(685)+W(367)+E(460) = 1512. Ultimate = 0.084seconds a dagger so lets say 5 daggers to be fair(262.2 x 5) 1312.

That's about 2.8k damage BEFORE RESIST. Magic pen against decent 110-150mr range = 15-20% damage reduction = 2400-2200~~.

Sorry don't believe you and this is judging that kat is level 18 full build. (I main kat just fyi and without dfg there is no way in hell I can full burst a 3k health/decent mr target in 0.4s. I can barely kill adcs atm with just banshee veil and a full ultimate proc. 2k health and about 80-90mr)

-These numbers are not accurate but just rough numbers thrown out there. I do not know the exact math on her numbers for there is too many variables that can change them but these are close.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

Ultimate is a dagger every 0.25 seconds, times up to 3 other targets for a total of 30 daggers over 2.5 seconds (5 daggers would have been 1.25 seconds of just ulting). OP had about 80 (86.7) MR, due to MR not scaling on ranged characters and Abyssal being bought. I've got some math above that might be a little more accurate, but thank you for providing some backup math and some info from a Kat main to back it up.

The Sword Saint1 votes

I like how op hasn't said anything since people came in with math and wrecked em. How dare you people come in with your logic and real numbers when people just want to rant exaggeratedly and prey that a champ gets nerfed to sooth their own ego. Better that some champ gets a nerf so you can retroactively feel better about how badly you got beat than actually get better or something.

It's either lying on purpose about how fast they died, or OP actually was caught flat footed and wasn't paying attention when they got jumped on and failed to react in time.

MrSexyHobo1 votes

ok assuming katarina was the only person on there team and i was at exactly 100% hp all the time you guys are right. maybe katarina had a little help with killing me but she did the lions share of the damage and yes i was dying in .4 seconds more often than not. the point is that katarina was pully way to much weight on there team and assassins should not be doing that much aoe damage. its one thing to jib a champ if you built all damage. its another thing entirely for them to kill one champ then another then another then another in a very short amount of time.

half my post wasnt even about katarina but about champs having really clunky animations for no reason like garens ult thats really slow and anivias auto attack whick is super extra slow

and for the record the reason i didnt respond is because i dont come to forums every second of my life and i really dont care enough about it to check every few hours to see if someone noticed my post. i honestly didnt expect a single responce

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