why could they not do the same thing with giants belt? i mean its just as annoying if not more so since most of your big defensive items build out of giants belt and its not like it would be hard to implement.
ProfDrDeath9 votesBecause, unlike resistances, health is a more universally useful stat.
MrSexyHobo3 votesso you are saying it would be unbalanced if both teams had an easier time picking up there health items? there would be literally no power shift for either team. the only positive is that i would very very very slightly buff tanks because they are the ones who are more likely to be building giants belt
ValyrianBlade12 votesThe reason for making cloth armour build in to chain vest was because a player may buy one or the other as a reactionary move (Oh, this ad champ is ahead, I should buy armour early) and be punished for it because it doesn't build in to an item they would use.
In contrast, you're never buying health in reaction to an enemy champion getting strong. You buy health if you're doing a tanky build. So there is no "bought Ruby crystal, should have Saved for Giants belt" thing going on, you buy the item you need. Also, Giants belt being 1000g makes it a more difficult purchase to get all at once (similar to needlessly large rod or BF sword, but cheaper since tanks have more difficulty getting money), making it build out of Ruby crystal sort of negates any reason to stick it out until you can afford Giants belt.
You made the point yourself, big defensive items are made from Giants belt. Just like big ap items come from NLR and big ad items from BFS.
TheSlappySlap7 votesWhile I find this most correctly, the problem is that there is "bought Ruby crystal, should have Saved for Giants belt" thing going on because of the fact that Giant's Belt and Ruby Crystal build different items entirely.
For example: Say you are a top Jarvan and you are facing a Rumble. You want to play a defensive lane and tank up a bit against your AP opponent. You go back to base and buy two Ruby crystals instead of a Giant's Belt in hopes of building a Spirit Visage next. The Rumble swaps lanes with their fed Zed mid. Now you are stuck with two Ruby crystals that do not build into any armor defensive items.
If Giant's Belt would be a component for an Advanced Tier Magic Resist item and Ruby Crystal would be a component of at least one Advanced Tier Armor item, then this problem wouldn't exist. I think the OP has some good points but I like the idea that Giant's Belt is a large health purchase similar to Needlessly Large Wand as you stated above.
They just need to provide more build paths in general rather than streamlining it like they did with Cloth Armor. Create options for players where they not only make decisions based off what they need now but also factor in their end goal.
Isn't that the point of build paths anyways?
Teridax681 votesIf their Rumble laneswaps with Zed and leaves you stuck with two Ruby Crystals (!), would it not be better for you to just laneswap as well? In the worst-case scenario, is it really that bad if you end up with health? Had you invested in a Null-Magic Mantle, you would've been completely screwed, but at least the Ruby Crystals allow you to defend yourself a little bit better, which is a significant advantage. Buying health means that, no matter what, you're going to be a little bit tougher to kill, so even if your opponent laneswaps you still have an immediate measure of defense as you build towards a new item (armor is also not that difficult to start building, unlike magic resistance).
Put another way: you're laning top against 
, and you get a lead on her while you build 
. After shoving her out of lane, you decide to gank 
at mid, whereupon she unleashes her full burst rotation on you. Had you built armor, you would've had no serious defense against her, but with a Giant's Belt you get to absorb some of her damage, while also protecting yourself against Irelia's physical (and true) damage. Unlike resistances, health protects you universally, so if you get tanky on health, you're tanky against pretty much anyone, and not just physical/magic damage dealers. A few seasons ago, health was extremely easy to access, and the result was that most top laners got very bloated very quickly and got too difficult to kill. There are a lot more ways to deal with health stacking now, but it's not a stat you want anyone to build up too quickly (or too easily).
Champion Skin1 votesPut another way: you're laning top against
This is not necessarily true Hp does not make you more durable against % of max health like Jayce knock back Zac W Vayne Silver tip bolts Brand passive
And resistances are usually better in prolonged laneing with lots of back and forth trading because Resistances are better with health regen(potions) and life steal then health is but if it is mostly just all ins or such hp might be better
Another problem is
Building AD --> 
Building AP --> 
Building defence --> except if you are building MR then you need 
Teridax681 votesThis is not necessarily true Hp does not make you more durable against % of max health
That in itself is not really true, since those abilities will still leave you with more health. Here's a rough example: suppose you get hit by an ability that deals 10% of your max health in damage, and you have 1000 health. With no resistances, you take 100 damage and are left at 900 health. Now suppose you take that same percentage of your max health as damage, but with 2000 health this time. You take 200 damage, and are left at 1800 health. Even though you ostensibly took more damage, you still have more health left, and so can still take more damage overall. Even 
doesn't deal exclusively percent health-based damage, so health will invariably make you tankier against everyone.
Champion Skin1 votesThis is not necessarily true Hp does not make you more durable against % of max health
That in itself is not really true, since those abilities will still leave you with more health. Here's a rough example: suppose you get hit by an ability that deals 10% of your max health in damage, and you have 1000 health. With no resistances, you take 100 damage and are left at 900 health. Now suppose you take that same percentage of your max health as damage, but with 2000 health this time. You take 200 damage, and are left at 1800 health. Even though you ostensibly took more damage, you still have more health left, and so can still take more damage overall. Even
Well against % damage you will die just as quickly no matter how much health you get (and of course % of current health will also do more when you have more hp though this is reduced the more damage you take... so there is that) Though yes you will be more durable to other sources of damage
Teridax681 votesBut that's my point: there is not a single champion out there who deals purely maximum health-based damage, so even if it's not a good idea to get a 
as 
or when against , you will nonetheless still be at least slightly tankier. It's the same argument as saying armor or MR is useless against percent penetration: sure, if you could somehow get 100% armor or magic penetration on every champion, building resistances would be useless, but that's strictly impossible, so even when up against a champion with 
or 
your resistances will still count.
Champion Skin1 votesBut that's my point: there is not a single champion out there who deals purely maximum health-based damage, so even if it's not a good idea to get a
Well of course and armor is useful against all champions as they all have Auto attacks (Even Azir has an Auto attack when his soldiers aren't around for some reason?)
TheSlappySlap1 votesOf course you could switch lanes but that's not the point I'm trying to make. It was an example.
I'm not saying that Ruby Crystal should build into Giant's Belt and I'm definitely not saying that health (in any form) is ever a bad purchase on a tanky character.
My point is that building a basic item such as Ruby Crystal should NOT wall you into buying a specific form of defensive item. There should be at least one Armor item that Ruby Crystal builds into and at least one MR item that Giant's Belt builds into. As people stated here, perhaps Sunfire Cape should be built with Ruby Crystal and perhaps Banshee's Veil should be that item for MR.
SpecterVonBaren4 votesWhile I find this most correctly, the problem is that there is "bought Ruby crystal, should have Saved for Giants belt" thing going on because of the fact that Giant's Belt and Ruby Crystal build different items entirely.
For example: Say you are a top Jarvan and you are facing a Rumble. You want to play a defensive lane and tank up a bit against your AP opponent. You go back to base and buy two Ruby crystals instead of a Giant's Belt in hopes of building a Spirit Visage next. The Rumble swaps lanes with their fed Zed mid. Now you are stuck with two Ruby crystals that do not build into any armor defensive items.
If Giant's Belt would be a component for an Advanced Tier Magic Resist item and Ruby Crystal would be a component of at least one Advanced Tier Armor item, then this problem wouldn't exist. I think the OP has some good points but I like the idea that Giant's Belt is a large health purchase similar to Needlessly Large Wand as you stated above.
They just need to provide more build paths in general rather than streamlining it like they did with Cloth Armor. Create options for players where they not only make decisions based off what they need now but also factor in their end goal.
Isn't that the point of build paths anyways?
Hhm.... This is an incredibly good point and I think I'll even make a thread based off this post but, how about they change the recipe for Banshee's Veil and Sunfire Cape?
Instead of giants belt, they can have Sunfire Cape build out of Chain Vest and Kindlegem and give Sunfire cape 10%CDR, it even fits thematically for Sunfire Cape since kindle means to light or set on fire.
Meanwhile, Spirit Visage and Banshee's Veil are the two big mr items but their build paths are currently almost exactly the same aside from the Kindlegem for Spirit Visage. Ironically though, even though Spirit Visage has gets more health from its component pieces, Banshees Veil gives more health once completed. So why not make their recipes more unique and have Banshees Veil build from Giants Belt? This would help diversify their recipes while also making it obvious that Banshees Veil gives more health.
MrSexyHobo1 votesi can accept this explaination
Champion Skin1 votesYou made the point yourself, big defensive items are made from** Giants belt**. Just like big ap items come from NLR and big ad items from BFS.
Ehh so we have no big defensive MR items then I suppose? Since what you are saying Big defensive item --> giants belt
And no MR item build out of giants belt
ValyrianBlade1 votesEh, I was just taking from his post.
The point is though that Giants belt is comparable to BFS or NLR in being a big purchase that's not trivial to save for. I agree with the first response to my post that Giants belt should build in to a big mr item (banshees) and Ruby crystal in to an armour item possibly sunfire - alas, that's a conversation for a different thread. Here, the point is that making Ruby crystal build in to Giants belt would be similar to allowing longsword to build in to pickaxe and in to BF sword, then there would be no reason to try to stay in Lane long enough to get the advantage of getting the big item as your opponent can just build the same item despite backing and buying earlier. Keeping it as a big buy creates meaningful choices, do I back at 35% health and grab pickaxe and 5 pots, or do I try to stick it out for a BF sword on my first back?
Also, stacking large amounts of health is an alternative to building mr for shutting down most ap champions, since they rely on burst and both styles of Defense will help you survive the burst.
Champion Skin1 votesHere, the point is that making Ruby crystal build in to Giants belt would be similar to allowing longsword to build in to pickaxe and in to BF sword, then there would be no reason to try to stay in Lane long enough to get the advantage of getting the big item as your opponent can just build the same item despite backing and buying earlier. Keeping it as a big buy creates meaningful choices, do I back at 35% health and grab pickaxe and 5 pots, or do I try to stick it out for a BF sword on my first back?
Well you see that actually doesn't matter that much in the current meta where most ADC goes for Infinity Edge
first anyways which builds out of a pickaxe however it is troublesome if you are going Bloodthrister
first or something else I suppose
Also, stacking large amounts of health is an alternative to building mr for shutting down most ap champions, since they rely on burst and both styles of Defense will help you survive the burst.
Well MR helps greatly though as each point of MR increases your hp against magic damage by 1% So at 0 mr you have 100% hp (against magic damage) At 50 mr you have 150% hp at 200 mr you have 300% hp
Now say if you have about 2000 hp That would mean 0 mr --> 2000 effective hp 50 mr --> 3000 effective hp 200 mr --> 6000 effective hp
MR can make a big difference in the damage you take an ideally you will force them to either use their burst on you or keep them away from your ADC/APC
ValyrianBlade1 votesI find I have an 80-90% success rate of getting BF sword on my first back, however if I back for a pickaxe first my opponent can use their lead to force me to back again before I can afford a BF sword about half the time. So it is an issue when you can't finish IE due to never having enough for a BF sword in one back - I've had the unfortunate Games where I end up itemizing pickaxe, cloak, boots, t2 boots, zeal, etc... Because I just can't get enough gold for BF in one back.
It's definitely worse with needlessly large rod. You need 3 of those typically. Some games I can get two as my first two items (which gives more ap and costs less than building the first in to rabadons, dfg might be a better option but I'd rather not risk having to save for a rod when I did already), other games I just outright can't stay in Lane long enough to get one.
I've also been on the giving end of that treatment. If you establish a lead and your opponent doesn't have their big buy, just play super aggressive and force them out of Lane before they can afford it and they don't know how to react with their build and end up really spiraling out.
Champion Skin1 votesI find I have an 80-90% success rate of getting BF sword on my first back, however if I back for a pickaxe first my opponent can use their lead to force me to back again before I can afford a BF sword about half the time. So it is an issue when you can't finish IE due to never having enough for a BF sword in one back - I've had the unfortunate Games where I end up itemizing pickaxe, cloak, boots, t2 boots, zeal, etc... Because I just can't get enough gold for BF in one back.
It's definitely worse with needlessly large rod. You need 3 of those typically. Some games I can get two as my first two items (which gives more ap and costs less than building the first in to rabadons, dfg might be a better option but I'd rather not risk having to save for a rod when I did already), other games I just outright can't stay in Lane long enough to get one.
I've also been on the giving end of that treatment. If you establish a lead and your opponent doesn't have their big buy, just play super aggressive and force them out of Lane before they can afford it and they don't know how to react with their build and end up really spiraling out.
Well also depends on the champion though as ADC's and such that builds other items like BotRK 
that doesn't really need any huge items an example of this would be Vayne which gets a huge power spike when it is completed
Or champions that itemize for Magic pen usually go for haunting guise 
which also don't really have any big items (then again the entire thing costs just 1485 gold)
Or Hydra 
which also have lots of small items and steps you can take to reach the whole item
Though yes it can be hard to afford a BF sword though even if the enemy has it and you don't things aren't completely impossible even if they have 20 more ad (though that is dependent on the match up I guess)
Renaille1 votesUseful for the other team because bork and percent max hp spam.
Hyrum Graff1 votesWhat DrDeath said.
Specifically, this scenario:
You're a bruiser. You get ahead. You've already bought some damage, but now it's also easy for you to buy hp. Now you're fed, do a lot of damage, and it's hard for everybody to kill you.
If you buy a lot of MR, you're weak to the enemy AD champs. Vice versa for Armor and AP. But if you buy hp, it makes you stronger against everybody. If you get fed, it becomes really hard to deal with you, which is a terrible experience for the enemy team.
Pryotra1 votesI wouldn't mind this if giants was effectively the same in both price and power.
Heck it would help those who are behind more than anyone. and even then, not that much.