League's next V&G reworks need to be very interesting…

GodJormungandr · 2017-06-10T09:19:30.761Z

After all of the visual gameplay reworks happened, there are good and bad ones, the majority were lore based rework so it was fair and awesome. But i personally think the best reworked champion in the history of league is actually warwick, his overall gameplay changed to very interesting and fun while he used to be 1 ult 1 kill. and i also think the worst reworked champion is going to be Galio because his lore just got killed, he was suppose to be a gargoyle not a flat tank colossus who sounds stupid. I don't know if our next reworks are going to be like galio or warwick [ Negative one/ Positive one] The one i am looking mostly forward is Going to be Mordekaiser 's Lore is simply the most amazing lore in all league's lores history , doesn't matter if there are many like the other lores but mordekaiser's lore is defintiely the most interesting lore for him being the most badass god of death who leads the shadow isles. Whenever his rework gets on the list i would ask you guys to not ruin him and his lore, just make him a lore based champion, make him a badass duelist in game, make him the master of the shadow isles like how his lore is.

ModAcademy KaynJun 10, 20172 votes

That's surprising. I would've figured Sion would be up there.

ParvatiShallowJun 10, 20173 votes

Agreed, Galio just looks so fitting as the anti-magic Demacian badass. Before he really didn't have an identity just kinda sitting outside Demacia but sort of associated with it. He was an outcast, like the Hunchback of Demacia Yorick .

ModKnightsKemplarJun 10, 20178 votes

...

But seriously, how is Taric not on that list.

RiotReav3Jun 10, 201721 votes

For the most part all of our big VGUs have been very positively received by the majority of players. This is one of the reasons we keep doing them and have also increased the cadence of them, amount other reasons.

Taric was very highly rated just not quite as high as the 3 above. The only 2 VGUs that had mixed player sentiment where GP and Fiora. Fiora was about her visuals even though her gameplay was very highly rated and GP was mainly about how much higher his skill floor became.

Fiora and GP were our highest rated VGUs a year after release though, when looking at them in comparison to player sentiment around all champions in the game.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 10, 201714 votes

Hmm. Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I wouldn't mind a dev blog or featured article about this topic. It's always fun to see where you do and don't agree with the community.

Holy FervorJun 10, 20172 votes

Looking at champions like Fiora, GP, Galio Poppy, all fill me with excitement towards the future and i'd really like to thank you for them. Though, i'm actually scared for the Morgana and Kayle update. Idk if they're still around January or what, but i can't help but hold my excitement for it.

MelledoneusJun 10, 20174 votes

The reason why Taric did not hit as high, I guess, is because the blue particles look off on his other skins. Emerald Taric with blue particles makes the skin feel weird and bugged. The aesthetics are a big part of the VU, and the fact that a lot of people had Taric skins beforehand makes it even more skewed.

But perhaps that is just me.

IxtaliKingJun 10, 20176 votes

I agree, you guys tend to do really well with the big VGUs. The only really bad VGU was Karma because she was rushed, left unfinished and was left without any real follow up work. A necessary sacrifice for all the good VGUs that came after, it's just shame that nobody felt like completing her.

I look forward to to seeing what you guys have done with Urgot though, can't wait.

Any word on when we can expect to hear about the next class update? (Sorry if this has been answered before)

RiotReav3Jun 10, 20177 votes

I should have a blog out soon that talks about what's next for the roster team.

SpideraxeJun 10, 20171 votes

You mentioned possibly doing a video version of state of champ up with Statikk and Scruffy, can you talk about that a little

RiotReav3Jun 12, 20173 votes

Yeah, I wanted to do that. After talking to the Comms team about it though we decided it was best to keep those updates in DevBlog form. The reason being that big announcements of VGUs are much easier to localize for all our global players in written format.

SpideraxeJun 12, 20171 votes

Understandable but would have been an awesome thing to see

GodJormungandrJun 10, 20173 votes

I personally feel skarner / mordekaiser are the mostly who need a full visual + gameplay rework because they feel like literally dead especially skarner he is no longer a scorpion like how he was in his release date with that reduction passive

RenanReinJun 11, 20171 votes

I'm very exciting for this blog! Warwick update was the best rework. You guys did a great job! He still's Warwick, He's just modernized. When you see his visual and his kit, you just open a smile, because that is the kind of update that all champion deserves. I agree that the strong thematic helped on ww rework, but its more deeper than this, everything in his rework makes sense and has logic. All the thing from his old kit are in the new one, and some "unnecessary" things were removed to add new ones. His passive don't heal him all the time anymore, but instead, the heal is much stronger when he's very low on health. The Attack speed buff for the team didn't make sense, then you guys removed it, but mixed his W and E into one ability that contains all the things from his old kit (attack speed and the hunt ms mechanic through the smell) into a very thematic ability (the increases AS on targets very low targets, the blood trail).

I hope you guys can do something similar to Irelia and Akali, that are the next 2 VGU that I'm most excited for. I like Galio's new kit, but visually and thematically he's nice (and you guys did a great job as well), but doesn't look like Galio, I think his update was the most drastic in the whole League history.

DeadUnbornJun 10, 20171 votes

Can I ask what sample size, you use for these surveys? Are they region based or global? I suspect if the reworks were quantified by mmr, region and "degree of attachment" (play rate) previous to rework those scores might look different.

For example if Galio was liked by a ton of new players because he is a cool new champ then he would get a high score, but depending on the localization work (VO) of a particular region as well as how well Galio mains feel represented (if poeple with a high galio play rate before rework) those scores might change. in that case, it could be that the champion rework team is actually great at making new champs, not reworking them.

Just a thought, I actually like most rewroks personally

RiotReav3Jun 10, 20175 votes

Don't remember the exact sample size. Our Insights team would know that. I know that there is a mathematical amount needed to be a accurate representation of data and that's the number they get. Yes we get data from all the major regions. We also get data from new players and previous mains and can view those results separately.

GuardmanJun 13, 20171 votes

How does the data look when you guys change a champion class? I am still salty about Poppy Poppy going from a diver/assassin to a warden/tank which is the exact opposite of where she was before.

Because on the one hand I like the new Passive, Q, and W since they can still work for an assassin/diver build and appreciate her defining features, low health survivability and her E, being maintained. But I can't stand her new ult, especially since it is so awkward to use when playing her as an assassin and would have preferred an ult that either maintained her diver or assassin status.

XIII VanitasJun 10, 20173 votes

Was Sion high rated as well? Because I don't want to live in a world where people enjoy Taric's rework more than Sion's.

RiotReav3Jun 10, 20174 votes

All the big VGUs were highly rated. It's just that those 3 were the highest but they were all pretty close in ratings.

5000000000000000Jun 11, 20171 votes

Could you share with us some of the badly received reworks? I'd imagine class updates are generally high on that list, and that's why we only got 3 tank updates?

RalanrJun 12, 20171 votes

Dang. Sion was dethroned.

AazzlanoJun 10, 20171 votes

I'm an Evelynn main, and if she was taken from trash tier (like some of these VGU candidates have been) to god tier (ditto) I'd have a positive look on the VGU regardless of her lore, visuals, whatever. In fact, this was actually done in Season 2 when she went from being Eve tier (lol) to God tier from her rework where she was subsequently nerfed patch after patch with every single one of her abilities losing not only massive numbers, but they all got nerfed mechanically as well. But yeah, she is still a better champion than she was pre-rework, so of course her rework was a success overall.

By the same vein, of course gameplay from VGUs like Fiora, Poppy, Galio etc. are going to be highly rated. You took a champion with little amounts of gameplay and turned them into crazy champions with 10x the complexity, and on top of that, overtuned them. Yes, the mains are going to love that, overall. You have much more you are able to do and you are rewarded way more for it. Then they get nerfed for patches/seasons on end after that. And again, still better than they were pre-rework. Still successes. But the fact doesn't change that these champions are massively overloaded with stuff and highly overtuned on release and that is very exciting for players to play as.

If they maintained a similar level of power, there would be a lot more disapproval.

DJMason88Jun 11, 20171 votes

Gallo and Poppy are not overturned or complex... Fiora is overturned but she isn't even too complex

AazzlanoJun 11, 20172 votes

On the release of the rework..... not months later

GayFluffyUnicornJun 12, 20171 votes

Don't listen to them, GP's rework has been the best that could have happened to him.

RalanrJun 10, 20173 votes

Galio one of the highest?

Eat your heart out Galio haters.

TerraRisingJun 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

We send surveys out to players asking them how the feel about our VGUs and new champions after release. As far as VGUs go Galio was one of our highest rated from players we have ever done, tied with Warwick and Poppy.

Interesting. Where does Yorick rank?

RiotReav3Jun 12, 20172 votes

He was really high, about even with Taric's. He was our most improved as far as what his player rating were before and after the VGU, but he also had the lowest player ratings pre-rework.

RaxistaichoJun 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He was really high, about even with Taric's. He was our most improved as far as what his player rating were before and after the VGU, but he also had the lowest player ratings pre-rework.

I thought Yorick was one of your best jobs since you largely maintained fidelity for his core kit components (no mobility, zombie horde, sustain, big whacks with a shovel, mini-boss summon ultimate) despite his original incarnation being a completely unsalvageable mess.

He's more true to his former self than Sion and Poppy are.

EvilMerodachJun 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

We send surveys out to players asking them how the feel about our VGUs and new champions after release. As far as VGUs go Galio was one of our highest rated from players we have ever done, tied with Warwick and Poppy.

Sion 's still my favorite Lore wise, the teaser thing, and the music with that. Loved getting the evolving story of the statue. Gameplay was eons better than his old one, and still felt "Sion" enough that I didn't feel like it was a delete/make a new champ. (Though pretty sure most disagree, but they were probably AP cheesers, I actually liked playing old Sion as a sustain AD.) Though he's kinda stuck in a fairly non-meta, not underpowered, not overpowered, but bland state and doesn't 'fit in' much, gameplay wise now.

Poppy felt pretty 'meh' on everything. Too girly/kawaii personality. R and W feel like they still have no real conterplay, for vastly different reasons than before, but still kinda same result.

Galio feels a little generic/telegraphed, but it's alright I suppose. Lore didn't really 'grab' me, but it was ok.

feels amazing gameplay wise, fun, less telegraphed, fills 'the fantasy' of being a werewolf thing. 10/10 Lore was pretty lame imo, honestly liked old better. Plus it deleted what little was left of Soraka's lore.

Ending note: #PLEASE GIVE Fiddlesticks A LORE ANYTHING. I've been waiting years, and he just straight up has nothing. Stuck in a room that doesn't exist, summoned by a guy that doesn't exist, so that he can be summoned by summoners that don't exist. And when he even did exist, he was just a scarecrow that sat in a room and didn't move.

He's like....the lore equivalent of what would happen if you played URF-for-one and bought item 3157 item 3193 item 3083 item 3065 item 3194 item 3001 vs Bard Bard Bard Bard Bard

RaxistaichoJun 11, 20172 votes

What was the lowest if you don't mind me asking?

blackfootedfoxJun 12, 20171 votes

if only it didnt alienate a lot of galio's old fans. I still cringe hearing his new voice

redfeenixJun 12, 20171 votes

And how about Shen? What fraction of Shen players were happy that their baddass 1 man army ninja juggernaut turned into a crippled hunchback chained to a post?

you turned a badass into a cripple. Why?

Old Shen https://ubistatic19-a.akamaihd.net/resource/de-DE/game/forhonor/fh-game/fh_kensei-media-carousel-3.jpg

vs

New Shen: http://i.imgur.com/f7aCP9n.jpg

Riot has a terrible habit of overcomplicating things (esp champion skills) to make gameplay more interesting. However what you dont realize is that the simplest gameplay is the most satisfying.

I would be very satisfied if you went back to Shen, and simplified him to simple be a badass warrior. Instead of whatever the fuck you guys tried to do to him.

P: Warrior Momentum: Basic attacks reduce all of Shen's cooldowns (even ultimate) by 0.5 seconds. Basic attacks against heroes reduce Shen's cooldowns by 1 second.

Q: Crescent Slash: Shen slashes with both blades in an arc. Enemies caught by both blades take double damage. W: Parry: Shen shifts in a defensive stance, blocking all incomming basic attacks in a small area around him. E: Taunt: Keep the same R: Stand United: Keep the same

Because of the nature of his passive, we can increase the cooldowns of all his skills. This new passive rewards Shens that play offensively, by rewarding him with shorter cooldowns. This passive might instensive attack speed builds, a build that i used to enjoy a LOT on old Shen. Think about it... the most valuable stat for a ninja should be attack speed right?

The current Q is really dumb, so I simplified it into a basic aoe. However there is still a lot of skill involved if you can hit multiple enemies with both blades.

Shen is a master ninja, so he is fast enough to physically block arrows/ bullets / blades with his swords. His W would look sick if he deflected everything himself: http://imgur.com/xTMqOpx

Shen doesnt need the power of magic to block physical effects. We should show of his prowess and mastery by letting him use his physical speed and skill to deflect attacks, just like Jax.

Taunt and Ult are perfect as they are. Shens that play offensively can use his passive to optimize the cooldowns of these key abilities. Therefore the more you splitpush, the more you can ult.

**It would be nice to have a simple champion to play for once. **

I feel like simplifiying Shen back into a badass ninja warrior would be great for the champion. We need a badass warrior like Shen..... and the current Shen simply doesnt cut it.

This is just a suggestion. Literaly ANYTHING is better than the current Shen on Live. I have no idea how the hell a badass ICONIC League champion became this pathetic hunchback chained to a post.

Reaver.... sometimes you do gods work. And sometimes you release bullshit like Shen. Really man whats the deal?

Can you explain how you thought making these changes to Shen would make him a more loved champion? I really dont understand how you could take the most badass League champion and turn him into... whatever he is now.

After this terrible track record with warriors, i'm really afraid to see how you guys will butcher Jax or any of my other favourite champions.

Also please stop overcomplicating and overloading champion kits. The simplest designs are often the best. GP for example .... I cant even play him anymore and he used to be my favourite character when I started.

Its just a lil dissapointing to see you guy step backwards.

RiotReav3Jun 12, 20175 votes

Reaver.... sometimes you do gods work. And sometimes you release bullshit like Shen. Really man whats the deal?

I personally think while it wasn't the strongest udpate we ever did, he is better then pre-rework shen as his old Q was pretty unhealthy to play against,

I will say that I personally didn't work on Shen. I started at Riot shortly after Shen, or like a month before he was released.

BrutusnessJun 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I personally think while it wasn't the strongest udpate we ever did, he is better then pre-rework shen as his old Q was pretty unhealthy to play against,

I will say that I personally didn't work on Shen. I started at Riot shortly after Shen, or like a month before he was released.

Hey Reav, you know if we can expect something lore-ish tomorrow on the PBE? The gameplay and interface stuff have been great lately but it feels like it's been a long time since we got something character or story related.

GuardmanJun 13, 20171 votes

I'm disappointed to hear that because Shen's old Q was one of my favorite abilities in the game and was hoping something like that would make it onto a future champions kit one day. It was spammable, point and click, with a heal, that encouraged AAing, and helped teammates. It had a little bit of everything and was fun and satisfying to use.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 13, 20173 votes

It was spammable, point and click, with a heal,

thats why it was unhealthy.

GuardmanJun 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEQjpqZK,comment-id=000100000002000f000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-13T00:32:10.478+0000)

thats why it was unhealthy.

Probably, but I really like that it was a little bit of everything, but not too good at anything. Plus spammable point and click spells are so much fun.

DeathBurstJun 13, 20171 votes

Spammable point'n'click are really, REALLY hard to balance and make interesting. Reliability is power, but not satisfying power. It's very strong, but you don't feel it. That was the problem with old Ryze Q, the problem with old Vlad Q, the problem with old LeBlanc Q, and the only reason it's not a problem on Garen Q is because Garen is melee.

Ryze got a skillshot instead, Vlad has his stack system to make it a more interactive decision, LeBlanc got a lot of damage shifted into her delayed mark.

When you think about it, there are less and less spammable point and click every day.

GuardmanJun 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Spammable point'n'click are really, REALLY hard to balance and make interesting. Reliability is power, but not satisfying power. It's very strong, but you don't feel it. That was the problem with old Ryze Q, the problem with old Vlad Q, the problem with old LeBlanc Q, and the only reason it's not a problem on Garen Q is because Garen is melee.

Ryze got a skillshot instead, Vlad has his stack system to make it a more interactive decision, LeBlanc got a lot of damage shifted into her delayed mark.

When you think about it, there are less and less spammable point and click every day.

I know, which is very disappointing for me since those are my favorite skills. And a lot of champions that do have it, like GP or TF have some awkwardness in their kit (barrels and pick a card) which makes it hard for me to really get into playing them. This is probably my biggest complaint on all the reworks were they keep changing point and click into skill shots or adding a weird complex skill to the kits like barrels.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 13, 20171 votes

Are u (riot) satisfied with the current shen state ? I mean u make a tank into a lanebully. Just my tough but i don't think he's healthy (bully, tanky, ult global, reliable cc).

redfeenixJun 17, 20171 votes

I will say that I personally didn't work on Shen.

Oh... okay then I will shift my hate elsewhere. Nah seriously though someone at Riot, please look at Shen. Such an iconic champion needs a lil love. He's almost there... but I know he can be perfect.

League's next V&G reworks need to be very interesting Reworks like Warwick's one

102 Comments

feels amazing gameplay wise, fun, less telegraphed, fills 'the fantasy' of being a werewolf thing. 10/10 Lore was pretty lame imo, honestly liked old better. Plus it deleted what little was left of Soraka's lore.

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