With the Heavy damage nerf of Thornmail +Sunfire, Vanguards are in danger now

GodJormungandr·Jul 19, 2017·14 votes·1,099 views

Vanguards meant to be the carry tanks, the ones who start the fights and deal enough damage for the targets.

With the heavy nerf of thorn + sunfire, They no longer benefit from these 2 items, These 2 items were the Core for all the vanguards in this game.

Riot please do something, Assassins got bigger, adcs are in a very safe spot, Melee fighters/Juggernauts can build Cleaver + Death dancer and other strong warrior items.

Wardens can be building full peeling build/tank support What about Vanguards? Abysal mask is nice item on them yes but with the nerf of sunfire +thornmail they gotta use new armor items that Counters the AUto attackers and deal strong reflected damage

50 Comments

JbelsJul 19, 201710 votes

Riot doesn't give a shit about tanks. They'll nerf them over and over until people stop complaining them (which will never happen). You know, because rather then fucking learning how to play against them, ADCs just need the game handed to them. Riot sucks so much ADC dick it's not even funny

GodJormungandrJul 19, 20173 votes

100% true.....

They definitely suck for making Adcs the easiest role just right click and let ur support peel u Strongest damage dealers + duelers too While Vanguards who suppose to create the late team plays and dueling combats they are being extremely bad at that.

AirKingNeoJul 19, 20172 votes

ADC is literally the hardest role in the game due to positioning. There's a very simple reason it is the least popular role in high ELO.

ExecutionerJul 19, 2017

Dont worry man I agree with you. Late game all people wanna kill is the adc. One fucking misclick and your a dead man.

AirKingNeoJul 19, 20173 votes

Except last time they buffed the shit out of tanks and everyone hated it. Then they refused to actually nerf them, so we had tanks be consistently strong since the start of Season 6 up until mid season 7.

PennsJul 19, 20175 votes

Gragas Zac Maokai Rammus Sion Sejuani Alistar in danger, very weak champions hehe

GodJormungandrJul 19, 20172 votes

Aside from Sejuani and zac they got their reworks and gave them stronger kit to deal damage with. Aside From sion because his scaling with hp is great and his damage pretty strong. Alistar rammus and gragas are dealing less damage as vanguards , way less.

AirKingNeoJul 19, 20173 votes

Tanks aren't made to deal damage. They're made to afk waveclear to ignoring fighting (if top lane) and simply lock people down.

I have no idea what you are saying Vanguards; are not dying.

YaskamasandwichJul 19, 20175 votes

The thing that is making me worried for Vanguards is that most I've seen are building support items, myself included. Worst part is that before people scoffed at the idea of turning all Vanguards into Wardens. Now people are accepting that idea with opened arms. Hell I say turn all Vanguards into Juggernauts instead then.

Edit: spelling errors.

GodJormungandrJul 20, 20171 votes

that's the problem i am facing, there are so MANY people think Tank class is one.. like Juggs + vanguards + wardens are 1 .... that's wrong...

Juggernauts are the backline Defensive Fighters that crunch on the ones who start the fights against their team. They have a high damage high Hp High sustain and Execution but no CC or mobility That helps them start the fights against enemy team.

Wardens are protector Tanks, They are meant to be The peelers, the frontline Protectors they are the ones who peel your team the ones who build full tank support and they don't need any damage because their role is Warden they are the Peelers

Vanguards are so way different than Wardens they are meant to be The heavy Aggressive Tanks that jump on fights and make the teamfights starting by them in late game for sure, They are meant to be Carry tanks not Protectors, Their gameplay is all meant to be Damage dealing while going full tank almost. I hate so much how Vanguards are now 2nd Wardens even weaker cuz their role aren't good at peeling and protecting they are meant to be the Agressive carry tanks and the ones who Start the Fights without having much fear becuase they could kill any squishy Target easily and that makes them the true counter for assassins and other squishy champs or adcs

Look at them now, they got no damage , Adcs can get Death Dancer Phantom Dancer and get so tanky for Vanguards while getting Guardian angel and Lord Dominok in late game against vanguards gives them massive bonus ad 20% since vanguards are meant to be the heaviest tanks in late game fights, Adcs are taking down vanguards in moments while vanguards are dealing no damge at all it suppose to be the oppisite because they are the carry tanks of late game they are meant to destroy on any squishy target in their way... but sigh with all these adc mains who cry nonstop to riot, Riot listened to the cry babies adc mains who take 0 skills go full ad and just right click while having peel and killing anything....

KuroCaliberJul 19, 20174 votes

Like hell thornmail was core. Only malphite or Rammus built it.

GodJormungandrJul 19, 20175 votes

u are not a tank main u know nothing about what vanguards used to build!

Dig more sources and learn about champions before splitting nonsense [ Rammus, malphite} yes anyone says that cuz they are made to be armored only. have you only watched someone play malphite and rammus then u said oh ya they can use thornmail they are tanks and what about the other champions? u never played or tried them or never watched them? i doubt u know what Vanguard Tank means.

Mr. Malphite/rammus who never played other Vanguards

Thornmail was CORE item for all the vanguards either the physical or magic ones they both take Thornmail

RalanrJul 19, 20174 votes

Wasn't core on Sion. Or Zac, Nautilus, etc.

GodJormungandrJul 19, 20173 votes

It was! Sion,zac,Nau will have Great Hp in late game u need the thorn + tabi + sunfire combo to be massive

RalanrJul 19, 20173 votes

Do you have evidence?

DragonSheaJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Do you have evidence?

Yeah, I was thinking the same, where is the evidence?

AirKingNeoJul 19, 20172 votes

Considering Ralanr is one of the best boards users when it comes to being smart and not stupid, I'ma have to call you out on making shit up.

Also their core was always Sunfire Iceborn, except Zac who is a jungler and did Cinderhulk, any armor tank item besides Sunfire, and Visage at some point.

RalanrJul 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Considering Ralanr is one of the best boards users when it comes to being smart and not stupid, I'ma have to call you out on making shit up.

Also their core was always Sunfire Iceborn, except Zac who is a jungler and did Cinderhulk, any armor tank item besides Sunfire, and Visage at some point.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder370/65950370.jpg

Need Gold 4 TentJul 19, 20173 votes

doesn't actually matter anymore these days. you can see a yasuo/yi/trynd comp, rub your hands with glee as you grab your tabi/randuins/thornmail... then still die in despair lategame as you watch your hp bar disappear crit after crit. Unless you are, of course rammus/malphite perhaps.

DeathBurstJul 19, 20172 votes

No it wasn't. Sunfire was a decent first item, but I would often skip it and go directly for Frozen Heart, if I could afford it, and Thornmail was a purely situational item that I would never buy unless forced to by the situation at hand.

And let's not forget poor old Leona, she may be played in Support position, but her role is still Vanguard, and she didn't buy Thornmail either, and Sunfire only rarely.

AirKingNeoJul 19, 20173 votes

You should never buy Sunfire as a support.

DeathBurstJul 19, 20171 votes

You should never say never. First off, that was a long time ago, before Support got all sorts of fancy shiny items like Knight's Vow and the likes. Second, that was at rather low MMR, where all sorts of crazy things happen. If your bot lane is a combined 10-2 but the enemy team has good waveclear and you just want to dive them over and over to break the towers, Sunfire is a good item to make sure that you actually get aggro as Leona, since you can't rely on other people to juggle it properly.

So should you rush Sunfire as a Support? Definitely no, and OP is wrong. But did it make sense to build it "rarely", as I said? Yes.

AirKingNeoJul 19, 20171 votes

Even before hand you should have never bought it. You could buy Locket, Omen, Ruby Sightstone + FoTM, Righteous Glory, Banner, Zekes,.

DeathBurstJul 19, 20171 votes

At the time, Omen and Sunfire had the same stats, and I stand by my assessment that in some situations Sunfire was better suited. Not a lot, but in some rare situations yes.

GodJormungandrJul 20, 20171 votes

Leona is warden, she is the peeler, again wardens are Not vanguards

DeathBurstJul 20, 20171 votes

Leona is totally not a peeler... She has a gap-closer on her E and a ranged AoE stun on her R. If that doesn't scream Vanguard to you, you have a problem.

Also, words of God: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AIEmHs8v-new-classessubclasses-list Leona is Vanguard.

kargishJul 19, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vanguard Prince,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=THrJbiYG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-07-19T12:58:15.221+0000)

u are not a tank main u know nothing about what vanguards used to build!

Poor statement I'd say, I never saw thornmail be built on anyone, unless the enemy team really consisted of heavy auto attackers. As for sunfire that wasn't necessary either, especially not when cinderhulk is a thing. Just because we don't main vanguards, doesn't mean we don't know what kind of items most people build.

KuroCaliberJul 19, 20172 votes

Technically when I played pvp I was a Warden main, so I guess not. Lvl 7 on Leona tho, never built thornmail.

GodJormungandrJul 19, 20172 votes

Wardens dont go thorn sunfire, Wardens build fh + randuin + Locket + etc of supp tank items

DeathBurstJul 19, 20171 votes

But Leona isn't a Warden.

GodJormungandrJul 20, 20171 votes

Then why you play her support and peel? the tank support champions who be played just to peel ur team are Wardens

DeathBurstJul 20, 20171 votes

Why? Because I don't! I play her Support and make engages for my team.

I say FactsJul 19, 20172 votes

ehhh Hecarim is a vanguard i guess and his Core defensive item was Thornmail after Deadman plate

Shyvana too?

etc... all the vanguards i know always take Thorn after deadman

Your Comment about rammus/malphite only vanguards who use Thorn is complete illness dude.

RalanrJul 19, 20173 votes

Those are not vanguards.

LankPantsJul 19, 20173 votes

The Sunfire damage nerfs should be reverted. They were completely and utterly unneeded.

ProfDrDeathJul 19, 20171 votes

Wrong. Sunfire nerfs were needed for a season and a half, as the strong Sunfire Cape was one of the prime reasons Top was the tank fest it was previously.

FNC JinxJul 19, 20173 votes

Tanks have a role: To be a beefy front line. You do not fix them by giving them damage. The front line is meant to be a very hard to kill fountain of CC and sustain, and never a damage source cause otherwise, there's no point in playing anything in the Top lane other than 4K HP tanks that also deal damage.

Sorry but damage is not how you fix a tank. Or maybe you've forgotten release Cinderhulk. I really hate this mentality of people wanting tanks to deal damage.

Or you're gonna tell me that Poppy/Mao'Kai dealing damage meta was super fun? You want Sunfire and other Tank items to deal so much ambient damage while being so efficient defensively that we have the fun of Tank Ekko, Yasuo, Yi and Akali back?

Is that what you want??

Now come the down votes...

ExecutionerJul 19, 2017

God when poppy and mao'kai were in the meta dealing damage, that gave me aids. I for the love of god do want any of the tank meta to come back. Tank ekko was a fucking cancer cell. Trying to kill any of them as an adc was a nightmare. Even with my entire team beating on them they would take way to long.

Evil YasuoJul 19, 20172 votes

This better be a joke. ADCs are still outshining assassins and do their jobs better at a safe distance. In fact, I had a guy just tell me to go Lucian mid so I could "actually be useful".

NachingJul 19, 20172 votes

I agree with you 2 good items deleted to the pits and anything to compensate... Now vanguard only have a kit and random items dont working while all the others have kit + their items working 100% and better than before

All clases buffed and the ones starting combats and taking more damage nerfed to be bots without any damage, worse defense than ever and low rewarded.

GodJormungandrJul 19, 20172 votes

100% correct

KloqdqJul 19, 20172 votes

Made a post about tank items and comparing them to support items. Right now tank items are just kind of shit for what you are paying for. This is ALL tank items being hit. They need to be buffed just slightly and it would help the overall health of tanks and fighters, etc and not make the full support build equal and if not better than a full tank build.

BlakiepugJul 19, 20172 votes

That feel when the tank update makes your main one of the worst champions in the game... Nautilus :( Thanks Riot, I love class updates so much. :/

Big LincolnJul 19, 20172 votes

naut is the only weak tank

The Yetii RiderJul 19, 20172 votes

Amumu got a heavy damage buff with the rework. Sejuani has way better clears. Rammus is extremely durable and Zac is a monster.

Vanguards are just fine. They are just way more unique and specialized from each other now. They each bring something different to the table, which is the point of the rework. Their previous identity of dealing damage is gone, yes, but that was the point. Tank damage down, durability up.

Even if you had the same damage on the items as before, you would get neutered by Gargoyle Stoneplate's active (which is designed to only be good if you use it while at full health, like a vanguard initiating), so the only people who really benefit from a strong Sunfire are A) not vanguards and B) vanguards who do not build Stoneplate and thus die instantly from all the weaker tank items.

So why would higher damage be a good thing, again?

LankPantsJul 19, 20173 votes

Sejuani has way better clears.

Citation needed.

I can tell you she really doesn't. Her W is pretty much worthless for clearing now. All of her clearing ability is in her 400 damage E, which isn't actually as good as her old W at any levels other than 2 or 3, it's about even at level 4, from 5 onward Sej's clear has taken a hit, from 7 onward it's pathetic compared to old Sej. I have no idea why everyone thinks Sej's clears were bad pre rework, she had poor clears at level 1/2, but from 3 onward it was quite easy to clear and once you got some ranks into W she was downright fast.

They are just way more unique and specialized from each other now.

2-3 Hard CCs, 1-2 Soft CCs, Durability steroid, dash. How are Vanguards unique exactly? They legit all have the exact same kit. That's why the reworks were such huge failures.

Also, specialised? Do you understand what that word means? What does Sej do that Rammus can't? What does she do that Gragas can't? What does she do that Zac can't? What does she do that Nautilus, Alistar, Leona, Sion, Poppy, Galio, Cho or J4 can't? At best you could find minor differences. Vanguards are the opposite of specialised, they're standardised, homogenised, 7 flavours of icecream all of which are vanilla.

The Yetii RiderJul 19, 20172 votes

Sej's clear has taken a hit

Incorrect. Thanks to the new Cinderhulk, Sejuani deals way more AOE damage to monsters than her W ever did. Cinderhulk destroys mobs after level 5, and as you stated, before then Sejuani is better.

Sejuani is immune to slows and has fantastic synergy with Iceborn Gauntlet's slow thanks to her new passive.

Rammus is the auto attack reflector, that's always been his niche and it continues to be his niche.

Amumu deals true damage to everyone around him, no other tank can do that. He also deals that true damage based on the magic damage dealt by his team, so he scales well with burst mages in the same way that Sejuani scales well with divers.

Zac has an AOE reposition and his E allows for completely unique ganking paths. If you deny this you have never played as or against Zac.

Gragas and Maokai are actually rather similar now after the rework with the % health healing passives and the slight knockbacks. Maokai was basically just nerfed so he would stop being picked in the LCS, his rework wasn't intended to help anyone else. Gragas is a very mobile jungler, that's why he's picked in the LCS rather often (and for a tank, his base mana is extremely high so he has far fewer mana problems throughout the game even if he doesn't build items like Frozen Heart).

Leona and Nautilus simply have MORE CC than other tanks. Quantifiably more.

Alistar has a cleanse, which is actually rather useful for a tank and not something you see very often in that role.

Poppy can stop people from dashing. This is an ability largely unique to her and one other champion in the game, Veigar.

Galio is the magic resistant tank, he has MR scalings and a refreshing magic damage absorbing shield, as well as dishing out taunts which hurt mages more than any other class in the game because mages are solely reliant on their abilities to deal damage.

Sion has infinitely scaling health and a slow that reaches farther if you knock minions towards people. That's actually an incredibly fun skill shot to play with, in my experience.

Jarvan IV is a diver.

LankPantsJul 19, 20172 votes

Incorrect. Thanks to the new Cinderhulk, Sejuani deals way more AOE damage to monsters than her W ever did. Cinderhulk destroys mobs after level 5, and as you stated, before then Sejuani is better.

Do you really want to argue with me on this? Do you really think you know more about this than I do mate?

Sejuani's old W was 40+3% of your max HP/second+6% of the monsters max HP capped at 300, a cap it often hit. For W to equal the DPS of level 11 Cinderhulk on live Sejuani would need a grand total of 866.66 total HP, ignoring the %damage on W and the fact that Cinderhulk existed and did damage to creeps before the tank update. Also her Q did more damage before the rework and her E was AoE.

No matter which way you slice it Sej's clear now is significantly worse than before. She used to clear out camps in the duration of her W, 4 seconds. If you can clear out a camp in 4 seconds with new Sejuani at all I'd be impressed, I'm pretty sure it's not possible outside of some sort of Runic Echo's/AP cheese on Raptors or Wolves though.

Sejuani is immune to slows and has fantastic synergy with Iceborn Gauntlet's slow thanks to her new passive.

That's not a niche though. Being immune to slows is useful, but it's not something that justifies picking a champ. Also IBG's a subpar item on Sej due to its middling armour value and its lack of HP, while Mana's useful you don't need 500 of it and 20% CDR is almost always overkill. There's just better options at current, be it Knight's Vow, Deadman's or Randuin's.

Rammus is the auto attack reflector, that's always been his niche and it continues to be his niche.

Rammus's AA reflection got gimped in his rework. ADCs no longer even need to worry about the damage, it's far too low to be relevant. Even at 500 armour Rammus's passive deals just over 100 damage, that'll stop em'.

Amumu deals true damage to everyone around him, no other tank can do that. He also deals that true damage based on the magic damage dealt by his team, so he scales well with burst mages in the same way that Sejuani scales well with divers.

I'm actually not going to argue against Amumu, I think he's one of the better designed tanks at current.

Gragas and Maokai are actually rather similar now after the rework with the % health healing passives and the slight knockbacks. Maokai was basically just nerfed so he would stop being picked in the LCS, his rework wasn't intended to help anyone else. Gragas is a very mobile jungler, that's why he's picked in the LCS rather often (and for a tank, his base mana is extremely high so he has far fewer mana problems throughout the game even if he doesn't build items like Frozen Heart).

I don't know if that's the reason why Maokai was reworked, if it truly was then that's all the more reason to revert it. Maokai's rework was the biggest load of garbage I've ever seen and I don't think anyone would even argue against that.

Leona and Nautilus simply have MORE CC than other tanks. Quantifiably more.

Quantifiably you say? Let's quantify it then. Naut has 1 reappliable Root, 1 displace, 1 AoE slow and on potentially (but mostly single target) knockup Leona has 2 single target stuns, and an AoE stun

Sejuani has 1 knockup, 2 AoE slows, 1 reappliable stun and a single target stun Maokai has 1 AoE knockup, 1 single target root, 1 AoE slow and 1 AoE root Galio has 1 AoE taunt, 1 single target knockup and 1 AoE knockup Zac has 3 AoE displaces Cho has 1 AoE knockup, 1 AoE silence and 1 reappliable AoE slow

Doesn't look quantifiably higher than other tanks to me at all.

Alistar has a cleanse, which is actually rather useful for a tank and not something you see very often in that role.

That doesn't at all change the way he plays though. He's generic CC bot with a bit of added durability.

Poppy can stop people from dashing. This is an ability largely unique to her and one other champion in the game, Veigar.

List of tanks who can't stop dashes, Amumu, Leona, Shen. Every other tank can stop dashes. Displacements stop dashes.

Galio is the magic resistant tank, he has MR scalings and a refreshing magic damage absorbing shield, as well as dishing out taunts which hurt mages more than any other class in the game because mages are solely reliant on their abilities to deal damage.

And yet he's still picked into physical teams, because none of that actually matters. He fills the role of generic tank, often better than other tanks so he's picked over them.

Sion has infinitely scaling health and a slow that reaches farther if you knock minions towards people. That's actually an incredibly fun skill shot to play with, in my experience.

But what does he have to differentiate him from other tanks? That's a durability steroid and a lane tool, every tank has those.

Jarvan IV is a diver.

I see him build Stoneplate>Tank quite often. Regardless of what he's tagged as he's filling the role of a tank just as generically as all the other tanks.

GodJormungandrJul 20, 20171 votes

100% wrong u know nothing about vanguards.

TheHappyReaperzJul 19, 20171 votes

We like to refer to Vanguards as “offensive tanks.” Vanguards lead the charge for their team and are specialists at getting action started. Their explosive team fight initiation seeks to catch enemies out of position while allowing allies to follow-up to devastating effect.

Vanguards are play makers, not "carry tanks". Leona is a fine example of a Vanguard. Does she do damage? Not really. But, what she does do is initiate team fights by catching out squishies and cc'ing them.