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What about an assassin item for AP assassins?

HongChongDong··3 votes·1,469 views

Specifically AP Assassins aka fizz, diana, Akali ect. As an AP assassin or atleast as a standard AP assassin your entire kit is all in or no in with barely any middle ground. To do what you're meant to do you need to one shot a VIP champ or you will get counter bursted by another assassin, a mage, or destroyed by an ADC. The issue is that with shifting metas, the slowly decreasing average of AP in itemization, and MR and counter burst becoming more readily available to all sorts of champions, this goal is increasingly hard to get to.

MR Is fine for now and the meta is also at a decent state imo but the one thing that I really do wish I had more options to beat are flat shields and HP spikes. With AP itemization losing flat damage more and more as time goes on shields are becoming stronger and stronger against the AP assassin group of champions by the patch but they don't have any way to really counter it.

This is why I'm extremely excited for the new hextech as it'll be a perfect option to be used as a shield popper against hexdrinker but at the same time it won't be optimal and will indeed be really inefficient on certain champions who need that sort of flat damage which is why I really do think AP assassins could use something abit more directly tuned towards them.

Now alot of people will probably downvote me as this group of champions also include commonly hated champions like fizz but AP in general is in abit of slump and with the next patch nerfing flat damage even more making the champion group even weaker I think it would be nice if AP assassins also got abit of love like the mage rework is going to do for them but in the form of an item instead.

Now I know very well that Ludens Echo has something close to what I'm talking about but that's also not completely viable on every champion. Alot of AP assassins have to build utility and more defensively to compensate for the fact that they likely have to dive head first into the enemy to use their kit so fitting in an item that's all damage is not typically worth having to sacrifice an item slot.

Unfortunately I know that any concept I might spew out probably won't be all that balanced so I'll refrain from doing that but I still want to get the point across.

21 Comments

Aaravos3 votes

What i feel weak is flat magic pen options and this is the reason why ap assasins strungle and trying to build tank if they can. item 3001 is strong but poorly designed and worthless in an ad match up item 3151 is garbage item 3020 is just an expensive boots and not an item and you usually need to take cdr from the boots. I don't think they need a specific item designed to then, separating ap assasins from mages is a lot harder than separate ad assasins from marksmans. What they need is a reliable flat mp source what helps them to counter effectively mr rush in the mid game.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

What i feel weak is flat magic pen options and this is the reason why ap assasins strungle and trying to build tank if they can. item 3001 is strong but poorly designed and worthless in an ad match up item 3151 is garbage item 3020 is just an expensive boots and not an item and you usually need to take cdr from the boots. I don't think they need a specific item designed to then, separating ap assasins from mages is a lot harder than separate ad assasins from marksmans. What they need is a reliable flat mp source what helps them to counter effectively mr rush in the mid game.

I at first awhile back I started considering the impact of MR on AP assassins as I play fizz day in and day out so I get far more experience than most do but I've started realizing that MR doesn't matter as much as shields and health spikes like Lulu ult do. When it comes to targets squishies that you need to kill aren't going to stack enough MR to matter and the tanks and bruisers are why the ADC role exists to shred them but Shields through champion abilities and all sorts of items are too easy to obtain with the issue being that there's no real way for an AP assassin to overcome these.

Very Hard Engage2 votes

item 3100

HongChongDong2 votes

{quoted}

item 3100

Even when built it's still not exactly enough in most cases.

HongChongDong1 votes

Keep in mind I'm not saying they're weak but they're infact weaker compared to their AD counterparts and will become much weaker with the upcoming update. Feel like i have to say this before people of course start getting the wrong idea and downvoting.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

item 3285

Also, AP assassins are broken anyways. they scale way better than AD assassins and you don't have to compromise your standard team comp just to include them the same way you have to with AD assassins.

Imho, Assassins should primarily be AD anyways, unless they are mage like, similar to LeBlanc or Ahri.

Then you get shit liek Fizz and Katarina. Oi.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

item 3285

Also, AP assassins are broken anyways. they scale way better than AD assassins and you don't have to compromise your standard team comp just to include them the same way you have to with AD assassins.

Imho, Assassins should primarily be AD anyways, unless they are mage like, similar to LeBlanc or Ahri.

Then you get shit liek Fizz and Katarina. Oi.

I specifically talked about ludens at the end and no if anything AP assassins fall off late and scale better mid game.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I specifically talked about ludens at the end and no if anything AP assassins fall off late and scale better mid game.

Only Leblanc

Unlike AD assasins, AP assasins can actually gib targets without using all their CDs, they do way more damage and scale way harder because they have access to AP with both has less mitigation and better overal scaling, as well as better defense reduction in item 3135.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

Only Leblanc

Unlike AD assasins, AP assasins can actually gib targets without using all their CDs, they do way more damage and scale way harder because they have access to AP with both has less mitigation and better overal scaling, as well as better defense reduction in item 3135.

LB Is the only one that scales well into the late because come late game other AP assassins typically won't beable to one the ADC or anything then when they dive head first and blow their combo they're the ones getting insta gibbed when they come out of hourglass if they have it.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

LB Is the only one that scales well into the late because come late game other AP assassins typically won't beable to one the ADC or anything then when they dive head first and blow their combo they're the ones getting insta gibbed when they come out of hourglass if they have it.

Fizz literally gibs any sqishy with just Q-auto late game.

You have said the most bass-ackwards thing ever.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

Fizz literally gibs any swishi with just Q auto late game.

You have said the most bass-ackwards thing ever.

Do you play fizz at all? Late game with everyone at full build the ADC WILL have a Mercurial and the support will likely have a face of the mountain or Locket and those items will prevent a one shot. Fizz snowballs but there's a difference between snowballing and scaling.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Do you play fizz at all? Late game with everyone at full build the ADC WILL have a Mercurial and the support will likely have a face of the mountain or Locket and those items will prevent a one shot. Fizz snowballs but there's a difference between snowballing and scaling.

First of all, not every support in the game is Leona/Braum Second, the Shield from FoTM is laughably small.

it won't stop Fizz from Q-auting someone to death, especially since his W has a damn DoT Execute on it. And even then, you could just say the same thing about Zhonya with AD assassins. The difference being that Zhonya's is an on demand immunity button, while Mercurial is just stats in this dichotomy.

Even then, that all is irrelevant to the point being made, which si that AP scales higher than AD and thus AP assassins scale harder than AD assassins.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

First of all, not every support in the game is Leona/Braum Second, the Shield from FoTM is laughably small.

it won't stop Fizz from Q-auting someone to death, especially since his W has a damn DoT Execute on it. And even then, you could just say the same thing about Zhonya with AD assassins. The difference being that Zhonya's is an on demand immunity button, while Mercurial is just stats in this dichotomy.

Even then, that all is irrelevant to the point being made, which si that AP scales higher than AD and thus AP assassins scale harder than AD assassins.

I main fizz to the point of playing him day in day out 24/7 against all types of skill levels and matchups. I know what he can and can't do and insta gibbing an ADC lategame with Q and W is not possible unless they have 0 MR.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I main fizz to the point of playing him day in day out 24/7 against all types of skill levels and matchups. I know what he can and can't do and insta gibbing an ADC lategame with Q and W is not possible unless they have 0 MR.

Nice claims. Gimme numbers then. Because Ive not only seen it consistently, but have constantly have it reported to me by fizz players alike whether they were the fizz in question or not when it was or could have happened in the very instance of the game in question.

Ive not only had it happen to me either.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

Nice claims. Gimme numbers then. Because Ive not only seen it consistently, but have constantly have it reported to me by fizz players alike whether they were the fizz in question or not when it was or could have happened in the very instance of the game in question.

Ive not only had it happen to me either.

The only possible way for it to happen is if the ADC has no MR and/or the fizz has been fed to an absurd point. Fizz gets his primary damage from 3 things: Lich Bane, His E, and his damage increase from his R.

Q and W both deal around 200 damage each, Lich bane will deal around 500 damage or slightly less. 1 MR item will heavily reduce any damage he deals. A standard ADC's HP pool at late game at lvl 18 is any where from 1600 to 2000, you can not one shot this with your basic on hit abilities. To add to all of this standard items come into play once you reach gold where it's common for the ADC to buy steraks or Maw and the support to buy a Locket making it 100% impossible to one shot an adc even with a full combo, this is of course even more difficult if the ADC has an instant dash like lucian which can dodge your Q making it even harder.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

The only possible way for it to happen is if the ADC has no MR and/or the fizz has been fed to an absurd point. Fizz gets his primary damage from 3 things: Lich Bane, His E, and his damage increase from his R.

Q and W both deal around 200 damage each, Lich bane will deal around 500 damage or slightly less. 1 MR item will heavily reduce any damage he deals. A standard ADC's HP pool at late game at lvl 18 is any where from 1600 to 2000, you can not one shot this with your basic on hit abilities. To add to all of this standard items come into play once you reach gold where it's common for the ADC to buy steraks or Maw and the support to buy a Locket making it 100% impossible to one shot an adc even with a full combo, this is of course even more difficult if the ADC has an instant dash like lucian which can dodge your Q making it even harder.

A standard ADC's HP pool at late game at lvl 18 is any where from 1600 to 2000 No it isn't/

a standard ADC HP pool is like 1200-1800 unless they build Fro mal, wtf. And the only MR item they will ever possibly have is item 3139 which only gives 35 MR. 35 Your item 3020 and Runes/Masteries already delete this.

Lucian Dash doesn't dodge your Q. The damage still gets applied. And where is your item 3285 ?

Maybe the issue here isn't Fizz, but you, because ignoring all that, Fizz is Doing way more damage than what you insist he is doing. Q 10 / 25 / 40 / 55 / 70 (+ 35% AP) 」 W 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 45% AP) 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 (+ 30% AP)

between theses two spells alone, if Fizz's build is something like this

item 1056 item 3100 item 3285 item 3020 item 3157

(not even a full build)

He has 395 AP not counting runes and masteries and 15 Mag Pen not counting runes and masteries.

and is doing 210 (Q)+ 208 + 150 (W) + 300 item 3100 + 260 item 3285 before MR mitigation from item 3020 = ~>1200.

Remember, this isn't at full build and this is ignoring runes and masteries as well as the Pen from item 3020 and the like.

And that is if he doesn't auto you more than on Q cast. If he so much as autos you one more time, let alone 2, this gets boosted dramatically, especially since his W executes.

Put item 3135 and/or item 3089 in those last two slots and its a fucking wash. Hell, item 3001 alone means your target squishy has negative MR.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

A standard ADC's HP pool at late game at lvl 18 is any where from 1600 to 2000 No it isn't/

a standard ADC HP pool is like 1200-1800 unless they build Fro mal, wtf. And the only MR item they will ever possibly have is item 3139 which only gives 35 MR. 35 Your item 3020 and Runes/Masteries already delete this.

Lucian Dash doesn't dodge your Q. The damage still gets applied. And where is your item 3285 ?

Maybe the issue here isn't Fizz, but you, because ignoring all that, Fizz is Doing way more damage than what you insist he is doing. Q 10 / 25 / 40 / 55 / 70 (+ 35% AP) 」 W 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 45% AP) 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 (+ 30% AP)

between theses two spells alone, if Fizz's build is something like this

item 1056 item 3100 item 3285 item 3020 item 3157

(not even a full build)

He has 395 AP not counting runes and masteries and 15 Mag Pen not counting runes and masteries.

and is doing 210 (Q)+ 208 + 150 (W) + 300 item 3100 + 260 item 3285 before MR mitigation from item 3020 = ~>1200.

Remember, this isn't at full build and this is ignoring runes and masteries as well as the Pen from item 3020 and the like.

And that is if he doesn't auto you more than on Q cast. If he so much as autos you one more time, let alone 2, this gets boosted dramatically, especially since his W executes.

Put item 3135 and/or item 3089 in those last two slots and its a fucking wash. Hell, item 3001 alone means your target squishy has negative MR.

Jinx- 1912 HP

Lucian- 1914 HP

Corki- 1907 HP

Ezreal 1844 HP

Sivir 1910 HP

These are level 18 HP pools.

Pen boots are only viable if I throw my flat AP quints for more scaling CDR at which point my early game tanks to a pretty low point.

If you some how believe ADC's only build mercurial then you're so far behind on meta items.

A typical ADC build when there's an enemy fizz will consist of Mercurial to drop the ult (Even though it doesn't), and a Maw or Steraks for anti burst which even at an ideal flat damage based build is seriously difficult to 1 shot through unless you land all of your abilities.

All dashes and Blinks negate fizz's Q damage if activated during his Q making them dodge him. This is a common knowledge change that was added when they hard nerfed him back at the beginning of season 5 get your facts straight.

Luden's Echo is viable but only when the enemy lacks a heavy source of magic damage in which which case Abyssal is mandatory other wise you run the risk of getting counter bursted when your E is down.

Abyssal scepter gives 20 flat Magic pen on an aura affect, Masteries give 8.4 Armor and Magic pen, finally runes give 7.8 totaling to 36.2 which at best will counter the 1 Mercurial but their base MR and MR that they get from Locket of the Iron Solari (Which is a common item for non mage supports when playing against fizz) as well as a potential and Likely maw will prevent a 1 shot regardless. Tank stats are much stronger than you seem to think they are at negating large chunks of damage even with a small amount of Armor or MR.

A void staff is great and all but the ADC will still have enough MR to at the very least not get gibbed by a Q>W>Lich Bane proc combo and the shield from Maw or Steraks + Heal or any other Shield/ heal ability from supports will make it impossible to 1 shot him/her even with a full combo. Keep in mind the full combo theory is also heavily unlikely as teams above silver start having better positioning and it makes it very hard to get to a back line without blowing Flash and 1 mobility spell and that by it self will cut alot of damage and chase potential from me.

Even with 40% CDR the CD on my E is still longer than what an Hourglass play lasts for and if an ADC of all champions survives my counter burst what'll happen is this: Nearby CC champion locks me down, Me being a squishy assassin with no defenses gets insta killed by the Mid laner turning on me as well as the DPS ADC throwing down 400-1000 damage Auto's based on if it's a crit or not.

The mid laner is equally as hard to insta gib as they tend to be more mobile based on the champion making it more difficult to target them in a teamfight.

Meep Man1 votes

item 3100 ?

This adds an extra 50% AP plus 50 plus 75% base AD to your rotation. That's about as much as you can ask for for extra damage.

HongChongDong1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEJu7X5V,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-04-18T15:38:01.317+0000)

item 3100 ?

This adds an extra 50% AP plus 50 plus 75% base AD to your rotation. That's about as much as you can ask for for extra damage.

If it was enough I wouldn't be asking for something more. Besides it's not as much as an assassin tuned item as it is simply the AP variant of Sheen items. What i'm asking for is not an overly packed item or anything broken but simply something to give AP Assassins what they need to not fall victim to Steraks Or Maw with no counter play or available items to help.

Assassins should really shine in the lategame where being able to successfully take down a priority target despite the odds of potential CC or counter burst will properly reward them but it's impossible to do that with Maw or Steraks being a common and super viable item on ADC's or any AD champion at all.

Lets just say the champion has 1800 HP which is a common general HP for ADC's. Steraks shield will be a whopping 540. That's an ultimate level ability's worth of damage you have to pop in the time span of about 5 seconds max. Maw will give a base 340 regardless which increases to 375 if they have Mercurial as well which they typically do.

D3m37r11 votes

But then they would rival our ad overlords and u know we cant have that.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

But then they would rival our ad overlords and u know we cant have that.

AD champions could be as strong as they want but at the very least there should be some viable options that allow AP Assassins to do the job of an assassin properly and take down atleast 1 priority target. This is why Akali is considered to be on the lower tier of assassins because unlike Diana who has superior damage to secure her kills, or Fizz's ability to weave around the damage and CC, or LB who has the ability to jump in and out as will, she has jack all to save her ass against people who aren't brain dead.

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