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Lee Sin, Moakai, it applies to Jhin also.

Mira Arya Enthe··52 votes·3,755 views

"if [Champion] is viable, he is almost always the right man for the job. This is most visible in pro play, where he has remained a generic pick whenever a team needs a solid [Champion], agnostic to other factors such as enemy or ally team composition."

You're right! It is describing Jhin! When Ashe was too strong? So was Jhin! When Jinx was too strong? So was Jhin! When Twitch and Vayne were too strong? So was Jhin! When Varus and Miss Fortune are too strong? So is Jhin!

He is just the best pick for his role!

If Maokai according to Riot, and Lee Sin according to the community, are problematic for being too universal in any meta regardless of what they are picked with or against. Then Jhin must be included. He has been a top tier ADC since release just like Lucian before Lucian was gutted. He is never not good and currently is picked into more than half of games without dropping into negative win rate because he has no truly bad matchups or comps, or else it would show in the cold hard math.

Ashe had this problem and was nerfed 5 consecutive times to bring her in line. With another nerf upcoming despite her win rate.

125 Comments

LankPants34 votes

The problem with Jhin is that the things that logically seem like they should be weaknesses of the champion are pretty much covered up entirely by other strengths of his kit or just the way the game works in general.

His DPS seems like it should be low because of his attack speed, but very few ADCs get to attack at their exact AS for extended periods of time. People move out of your range and you have to move to chase them and you have to move between shots to reposition. What happens with other ADCs is they end up having to break their DPS to move, Jhin doesn't suffer from this. Other ADCs have standing DPS where they AA at their full potential and actual DPS where they break a good ammount of their DPS up so they don't die. Jhin's standing DPS is his actual DPS. What this means is that his DPS comes out the same to slightly higher than other ADCs.

You'd also think his reload would be a time of vulnerability, but it doesn't quite work out this way. His 4th shot is a guaranteed crit so Jhin is guaranteed a MS boost during his reload, making it easy for him to reposition. In addition to this Jhin has abilities that seem designed to be used during his reload, he can pretty much E-W, E-W-Q or E-Q (depending on CDs) to eat a good chunk of his reload and maintain offensive pressure. His reload just doesn't leave him vulnerable enough to be an actual kit weakness.

For an immobile champion he also has an absurd amount of ways to work around his immobility. The best of these methods is just shear range. When you're over 1k units away from an enemy and still effective being immobile is a lot less of a problem, the amount of resources most champs have to burn to get on top of you means that you are at an advantage when the enemy tries to pick a fight at their own range. On top of this he has his bonus MS on crits to keep him safe, his traps act as mini wards to prevent flanks and his W offers him more self peel than the vast majority of ADCs have access to.

Jhin just has too many way to work around his "weaknesses". When you compare him to a champ who actually has an exploitable weakness, for example Ezreal's complete lack of tank killing power or Ashe's immobility that actually hurts her as a champion he's just far too good.

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

^

The Scout Girl4 votes

i juz don like his ult

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Then again I main yi so jhin is npfree food lol.

VelvetCrotch5 votes

Ashe Varus KogMaw MissFortune cry during reading this in their dark corner

NodirjonSattarov2 votes

how does kog'maw fit in this scenario?

Knoyle8 votes

unless you are Korean, Kog'maw loses a metric fuck ton of dps when he has to kite/chase given he's basically a machine gun with legs while standing still.

VelvetCrotch2 votes

agreed

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

I miss when Cait was the only universal ADC. Not because she was necessarily good at everything, but because safety never falls out of the meta. Similar to how the peel queen (Janna) also never falls off the radar.

fuffychan20 votes

Ive been calling Jin OP ever since release and always get downvoted.

Mira Arya Enthe20 votes

Boards worship him because he has a cool character and fun memes. Sadly this doesn't justify him being so strong in so many situations, no more than it would for Lee, Moakai or any other champion. Heck, even Riven of all champions becomes trash in 2-3 select meta types and doesn't work well into every team. Because as 'bullshit' as she might be to some people, she does one job straightforward. These other champions have so many utilities it makes them too useful all the time.

Ashe had this issue, and Riot nerfed her like 5 times down to 47% win rate, and is nerfing her again now. Because too much utility means you cannot be allowed to be strong in general.

fuffychan8 votes

Theres also a general resistance to acceptance that things can be OP. People blindly tend to believe that the game is balanced, and that RIOT would never release an overpowered champion when you can clearly see by reading his kit (and others, hello Camille )that there is way too much utility to be on a character that already does higher damage that most.

Riot claims to be adding so much utility onto every champion to add more "levers to pull to make balancing easier", when no, it simply makes that champion always stronger than others who lack those "levers".

I also called Camile out immediately and was downvoted to hell, then two weeks later the boards explode with "Camile OP"

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Theres also a general resistance to acceptance that things can be OP, unless it is mobile then it is OP by default to the boards.

Fixed it for you. Otherwise I fully agree.

fuffychan6 votes

I didnt see people calling Camille OP before release though, even though her hookshot grants possibly the best mobility in the game. When I read the description I thought it was like a normal hookshot and that you could only bounce off one side of the wall. When I realized it could actually go over the wall I was like WTF???

Mira Arya Enthe7 votes

She is undeniably busted, her stats prove this. But it isn't just her mobility, it is that she has essentially every tool in the game short of ranged basic attacks. Her mobility is just a piece of the whole.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

She also doesn't have poke or real sustain.

Last I checked her builds don't incorporate lifesteal, and her only sustain spell is maxed last.

Her winrate definitely fell after her last hard nerfs, so I would hesitate to call her still busted.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

While this is true, her design is busted for competitive play due to the tools she offers. Let me be fair a moment and explain, I don't hate Camille, or Jhin, or Shen, or Vlad. Because they are in the exact same boat as Ashe, their tools are so strong, that even their clear weaknesses can be ignored just for the value they offer a team. I love Ashe, but I also understand with her current design she will always be trash in soloQ for the sake of Professional balance. The tools she offers are too strong, therefore her overall numbers take hits.

When I complain about Camille of Jhin, it is exactly the same with champions I love like Vlad or Ashe. Either they change their identity/design, leave them bad in soloQ or make them busted in LCS.

I don't hate Jhin, I just try to understand utility balancing from Riot's point of view.

fuffychan5 votes

Oh look its one of those people.

Lets say theres 50 different possible champion strengths in LoL (such as reliable CC, in combat mobility, etc)

Most champions have 20-30.

Camille has 45/50. And there will ALWAYS be the idiots (you) who say "but look she doesnt have X!"

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

And depending on what that is, it's a big deal.

No poke means that you're out of luck in a siege war. No sustain means that if you can't burst someone down that does have sustain, you'll lose the arms race.

I'm not going to jump down a champion's throat without playing Teemo's Advocate first and understanding their weaknesses thoroughly.

fuffychan4 votes

If I have a Mercedes S Class, 3 BMWs, a Ferrari, and a Lambo I have better vehicles than you.

"But he doesnt have a helicopter!" -TYREKGOLDENSPEAR

LankPants5 votes

She also doesn't have poke or real sustain.

She has real sustain, I have no idea what you're talking about. Her W can heal her for up to 10% of her maximum HP VS minions alone potentially more if champions are involved. That is sustain, that's more lane sustain than most other bruisers have.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

You know her mobility isn't all that compared to others right?

Kassadin has a better one on low cooldown

Talon PARKOUR

Vi Q can go over walls

Zac Elastic slingshot

I think the main issue people have with her mobility is not the mobility itself, because it's honestly lackluster compared to other mobile champs. The issue people have is that this mobility carries a scary blade-legged lady with an ultimate that will not let you escape.

I believe it's not the mobility, it's the whole enchilada attached to it. (and the stun.)

LankPants11 votes

Kassadin has a better one on low cooldown

At 350 range, Cam's E covers well over 1k range when used correctly.

Talon PARKOUR

Not exactly a shining example of a perfectly balanced champion is he?

Vi Q can go over walls

You realise Cam can go over walls too? If you angle the second part of her dash over the wall you're on you will jump all but the thickest walls.

Zac Elastic slingshot

Hookshot is Elastic Slingshot without the channel with an AS steroid.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Right.

But you have to admit that her dash is not that crazy compared to these champs. The truly scary thing is that unlike these other dashes, the champion that this dash brings is what makes the mobility seem unfair.

Can we agree on this at least before we move on?

LankPants8 votes

But you have to admit that her dash is not that crazy compared to these champs.

I don't. Her dash is better than any of these champs dashes individually and they have real tradeoffs in their kits in exchange for their dashes. Kass's is his ult for Christ sake and Cam's E is still better than it.

Cam's E is like 2 regular abilities in strength, even if it was reduced to just the dash+stun it would probably still be too good to be a regular ability.

It's honestly on par strength wise with Blitz Q, and just look how crap the rest of Blitz's kit has to be so he can have that ability.

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

It's honestly on par strength wise with Blitz Q, and just look how crap the rest of Blitz's kit has to be so he can have that ability.

Mmmm.... I'm going to dispute the scale of this claim.

Her dash is strong, I don't dispute that in the least. But it's nowhere near the insanity of Blitz's Q in a vacuum. Blitz sees play do solely to the strength of that one ability, the rest of his kit is trash. Cam's dash is only a threat because of the rest of her kit. In a vacuum, her dash doesn't even offer much team follow-up potential - where as Blitz potentially pulls someone into his team.

Keevalroy6 votes

Because she was protected by the "new champion" title where the Riot brown-nosers will sprint to social media platforms and cry away the "haters" who aren't allergic to common sense and can identify an unhealthy design.

They're only silenced when enough of them open their eyes and experience reality, and even then, many will continue to deny Riot made a mistake releasing a champion / item / rework.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

On Camille's release I called her overloaded as fuck and the second coming of Ekko but I got downvoted pretty hard

RexSaur15 votes

Jhin is overloaded, he has too much in his kit and not enough weaknesses.

"but he is immobile"

You know who is even more immobile than him AND also has a lot other weaknesses? Kog maw, Jinx, Twitch, etc.

A champ that is strong at all stages of the game, is a lane bully with utility with 3k range spells that scales into a late game burst machine...Im sorry but theres nothing balanced around this, jhin is just a tier above every other adc in the game.

Papa Andrei1 votes

By his kit and thematic alone, he can not be balanced. He will always be good, as such, we need to look at making others better or equal to his strength.

Unless you want to just utterly remove his Ult, he will always be good.

Keevalroy8 votes

Unless you want to just utterly remove his Ult, he will always be good.

The fourth shot in general needs looked at. Getting "outplayed" by a 1500 damage right click followed up with a 600 damage targetted Q isn't exactly a healthy interaction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH3K9EgXzLs

That's disgusting.

Sire Hippington7 votes

Not that much, he actually does lack dps to take down tanks. Him currently beeing good at anything is mostly caused by the overall damagecreep, which causes his 4 shots to be enough for a tank if paired with his team. Though if Jhin was to recive further nerfs, i'd either changes his 4th shot from %health to simply %increased damage based on missing health like the ult, so it stays a strong execute s squishys but isn't as strong vs tanks, or i'd nerf the ms buff he gains from crits, for how much else he brings to the table, he's not vulnerable enough if you get close, if going lethality he has that ms boost+ghostblade+EoN-spellshield, if he goes crit he just gets ~500ms after every AA, outrunning even udyr...

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

I am actually fine with the nerfs on pbe to his slow + lethality. They should be enough in my eyes. I wouldn't want to nerf him further until after the midyear tank update. See where he is after that then buff/nerf accordingly. The ult slow hits one of his core mechanics without destroying him.

Moooose34 votes

You're right. There's absolutely no way to punish an immobile reloading adc.

Mira Arya Enthe15 votes

You're right, there is absolutely no way to punish a slow, immobile tank.

You're right, there is absolutely no way to punish a early game champion who drops off late game(as shown by stats)

Just because something can be punished, doesn't mean anything. Just like these champions, Jhin is too good, in too many metas, in too many teams, with too many enemies.

Moooose33 votes

Agreed Jhin is strong, but he has much counterplay and is by no means "the best choice in every matchup" to paraphrase. Win a single ranked game this season and then your opinion might be relevant.

TyrekGoldenspear7 votes

Dude, too far.

Moooose31 votes

[deleted]

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

Uh... I think you're replying to the wrong person. You brought up OP's winrate, not mine.

I know my Jhin, I play him quite often, I know what he loves in an enemy team comp, and what has him shaking.

Moooose33 votes

Another player with 0 ranked games giving their opinion. How nice.

Mira Arya Enthe12 votes

Ad hominin, for when there is no argument to be made.

Opinions don't matter. 55% playrate plat+ with a 52% win rate are hard facts. Trying to say otherwise through personal attacks only makes you look like an ass.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

Hey are you getting these stats from OP.GG? Been trying to find a good site for looking up champ data.

Mira Arya Enthe7 votes

Yes. OP.gg is the most reliable source according to Riot themselves as well as all pro-coaches and most top elo players. It is the best place to pull data that we have available at this time. Champion.gg tends to be very behind and doesn't measure as many samples.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

K thanks.

That feel when Galio, Aatrox, Urgot and Nunu don't have large enough sample sizes to even have any stats tho...

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

It requires reading more than one stat to understand a champions position. You have to combine win rate, play rate, ban rate and general player experience on the champion to come to a conclusion. For example, even when Kog'Maw is trash his dedicated mains prop up his win rate, even if his playrate and ban rate are non-existent.

Mira Arya Enthe9 votes

I don't need an opinion. I have math and statistics since his release. Opinions are irrelevant on the matter.

Moooose32 votes

If you want to jump on the "fuck jhin" train like the rest of the boards, be my guest. But it would help your argument if you have played a single jhin game or didn't go 0-6 so far in placements this season. Your ranked play is completely relevant, since in low elo like I assume your account is in after going 0-6, nobody knows how to play the game. Jhin is strong, he is not a free win if you pick him, nor is he the best adc in every single matchup like you are trying to say. This is just plain wrong. Sorry.

Mira Arya Enthe13 votes

55% play rate Plat+ and 52% win rate have nothing to do with my personal experience. Nor does him being a top pick in LCS since post-release buffs. Ad hominin more pls.

The train on the boards is "Jhin is perfect how dare you insult him." hating his statistically overpowered position in the game is just data. Like Phreak said, he is "Undeniably overpowered by the numbers."

Sahn Uzal4 votes

One of the ADC's main goals is killing tanks. Jhin is significantly worse at killing tanks than other ADC's.

Jhin is strong but you don't understand why. Jhin can be strong and be far from the best guy for the job, for example, if there are tanks on the enemy team. He does NOT share the issue that Maokai has.

Moving on, yes, Jhin is strong, he just got nerfed, Death Fire Touch is getting it's AD Ratio nerfed, Ghostblade and Edge of Night got nerfed. He's not under the radar or some shit, Jfc...

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Wrong. Riot talked about because of repositioning, Jhin gets about as much dps as any other ADC. The 25+ upvote top comment sums it up best. Jhin's patchwork dps is slightly less, but there are no patchwork fights in this game except Elder Dragon and Dragons. Even Baron has mechanics to dodge.

So far your only arguments for him was "he is fun", "he feels good", and "how dare you insult him I don't like you anymore". While Jhin being strong in every meta, good in most lane matchups and excessively valuable to any team would get any other champion in the game nerfed and lose mechanics.

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