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If you do decide to nerf Urgot Riot, please nerf the LCS build

Malicious Metal··27 votes·14,137 views

Now, I know that Riot actually said they wouldn't touch Urgot....yet, but those things are always subject to change and him being P/B in the LCS does raise some big red flags.

Being an Urgot enthusiast, I decided to check what the fuzz was all about and I was utterly disgusted by what I saw.

The current standard build for Urgot in the LCS is a PURE tank one basically. You get a item 3071 and then stack up on all the tank items like item 3800 item 3193

Which makes me kinda annoyed. Urgot is a Juggernaut, you know, the one class who's all about dealing damage and tanking some, basically playing like tanky damage dealers. But the way he's played in the LCS is anything but that.

He's basically an Ult bot, snagging one with his R, hitting righteous glory as he runs into 5 people to get his fear off.

That's just sad in my eyes, and it's not only because I do play a more damage-oriented Urgot with stuff like item 3071 item 3812 item 3022 item 3036 item 3156 and potentially something like item 3800

I love playing Juggernauts for the damage they deal while still being moderately durable, not to just piggyback off the things that make him good in pro play; HUGE AoE fear and the ability to just execute a fool once they drop below 25% hp.

So, I think I speak for quite a few (which is quite a lot considering the amount of Urgot mains) people when I say that if you nerf Urgot you should tackle the things that break him in competitive and not just ruin the fun we're having with damage-heavy Juggernaut builds.

Just my two cents on the matter. https://78.media.tumblr.com/81db5426bdc5cc2a8610d3c945741302/tumblr_oweohw0ujT1uw27iyo1_1280.jpg

51 Comments

D357R0Y3R12 votes

You nailed the problem of Urgot in pro play

I don't like how they made him able to move during ult, but if he can't be good without it I would rather them to just

what if they reduced W base damage and increased AD ratio? that would touch his midgame ability to deal damage while being massively tanky

Also

Disdain: PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 50% AD)

maybe nerf the base damage by 10? nerfs like this often balances bruisers

Z3Sleeper3 votes

Passive % health needs to scale with bonus AD in my opinion instead of purely level scaling. That's what's making tank build so strong.

BeatzBoyFTW10 votes

Don't other juggernauts like Darius & Garen only builds BC/TF as their one & only defensive tools, and then proceeds to build full tank items? Why should Urgot be any different?

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Don't other juggernauts like Darius & Garen only builds BC/TF as their one & only defensive tools, and then proceeds to build full tank items? Why should Urgot be any different?

usually triforce/cleaver + steraks as offensive items and then full defense. for garen it might also be ghostblade or something like that. but typically builds are still heavy on defense.

but someone like Nasus can do with pretty much a full tank build, if you consider item 3025 a tank item.

item 3025 item 3083 item 3742 item 3065 item 3143 item 1001 is an acceptable build for nasus to carry when he gets stacked.

if juggernauts arent building extremely tanky, i dont see a way how theyre supposed to survive getting into melee range and then staying there for an entire teamfight when shit like MissFortune Kennen Twitch etc. ults are flying around.

you got to remember, that juggers dont have the mobility or utility to deal with those abilities once theyre in the middle of the enemy team. thats the entire reason riot made item 3053 for them. to buy them a couple of seconds to survive teamfight aoe, burst and focus fire.

D357R0Y3R10 votes

Yes

but they don't get a shield each 6 sec that has 30% bonus hp ratio

Moody P5 votes

yeah they've got up to 36% missing hp on a three second cool down and 6 seconds of damage reduction with a passive warmogs

D357R0Y3R7 votes

36% missing health if you hit 3 people with the blade

and a juggernaut main like you should FUCKING KNOW IT since you use that argument to tell people to fuck off when they say darius's heal is broken

Urgot? press w get 1k hp shield

thanks, very balanced

Moody P2 votes

and his heal is more spammable and the damage comes out immediately compared to urgot DoT + having to reposition constantly to get his damage out

D357R0Y3R3 votes

No it's in no way more spamable

Darius has around 500 mana , he builds triforce+sterak+titanic and only triforce gives mana (like 200?) he needs his Q to waveclear non stop

his Q costs 50 mana, after 10 Q he's out without counting that he needs to use W/E/R too

Urgot builds more mana, and since his spells are less spamable he won't be out of mana plus he goes for inspiration dark seal and time warp

compared to urgot DoT + having to reposition constantly to get his damage out

nobody gives a shit about that he just tanks so much damage then ults and then fear 4 men with glory, and that's all he needs to win

and I assure you, 3 or 4 sec cd 12% missing health healing is WAY inferior to just pressing W to get 30% bonus hp shield

PortableEgg1 votes

You forgot to take mana reg into that calculation. Darius regs about 130 Mana in 60 Seconds. He has no big mana issues with only triforce. If you build BC on him thats a bigger issue with having not enough mana. You also dont need to "spam" Q for pushing. Most top laners should not even pushing in early since especially in solo Q it is an easy lane to gank in early.

kargish1 votes

Can we all just take a moment and think about how Mordekaiser doesn't have have access to any of those tools unless you decide to stand next to him like you're shooting a photo? :(

flibitydoo1 votes

no

because mordekasier can press E on 4 targets to get a shield equal to 25% of his max hp on a 5 second cooldown

and unlike the two champs they were talking about, mordekaiser is a manaless champion.

And also the condition to get that shield bonus from his E is much much more generous than darius.

kargish1 votes

But isn't that just the Darius argument over again? You actually need to have people in place to generate that much shield, just like how you need them to be an inch away from you to trigger your heal and damage, which is difficult on a champ with no CC or mobility.

But regarding his shield generation through E, since none of Mordekaiser's items grant any CDR whatsoever (item 3116 item 3151 item 3165 item 3135 item 3146 or whatever you build), his 25% shield generation every 5 seconds is meh compared to Darius' 36% (47%) missing health heal every 3 seconds item 3078/item 3071 item 3065 item 3813.

Alzon1 votes

item 3151 item 3157 item 3115 item 3065 item 3146

kargish1 votes

Sounds fun actually

Could consider it

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Or Urgot getting heals from either landing abilities or standing still.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

Yes

but they don't get a shield each 6 sec that has 30% bonus hp ratio

Garen has massive DR on his W active+ bonus MR/armor Darius has 12%-36% missing per Q Mundo has his ulti Illaoi has her 5% heals from a bunch of tentacles Udyr has Turtle Voli has his passive Morde has his passive+W

That's pretty standard stuff for a juggernaut.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

udyr W 200 hp shield

ok

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

basic garen build is BC into tank yes, but plenty of people play crit or triforce garen too. personally i use item 3147 item 3078 item 3053 + tank gear and i can survive long enough to destroy multiple people.

When i get far enough ahead i'll get stormrazor on top of it and there was this one time where i got so fed i bought RFC. That's rad as hell tho, i was smacking these kids from so far away, shame i didn't have predator that game.

Critmaster Garen7 votes

i mean. juggernauts are really just supposed to build one or two bruiser items and then pure defense, to be able to survive and fight front to back.

the item 3193 is weird, since juggers shouldnt want this item with the decreased damage on the active.

but othwise item 3071 into full defense isnt out of line.

when i play him i usually go for pretty tanky builds aswell. item 3071 item 3022 item 3800 item 3065 item 3075

this should be ok for a jugger to be able to carry.

Tegash8 votes

Actually the item 3193 makes sense, as long as Urgot never uses the active.

40 Armor and MR, upped to 80 Armor and MR when near 3+ enemy champs? Urgot lives in the enemy team. Having just the stoneplate passive would make him nigh unkillable while he does his job and moshpits.

Kumungu Affair11 votes

He should actually use the active when all (or most) of his abilities are on comedown so that he can just soak a lot of damage and move more into the enemy team while his abilities come back up

Gregorovic084 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAubERJt,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-15T11:33:40.513+0000)

i mean. juggernauts are really just supposed to build one or two bruiser items and then pure defense, to be able to survive and fight front to back.

the item 3193 is weird, since juggers shouldnt want this item with the decreased damage on the active.

but othwise item 3071 into full defense isnt out of line.

when i play him i usually go for pretty tanky builds aswell. item 3071 item 3022 item 3800 item 3065 item 3075

this should be ok for a jugger to be able to carry.

I think the thing with Stoneplate is that you hit someone with ult and get them below 25% and then Righteous-Glory into the enemy team and activate Stoneplate and it won't reduce your ult's damage because it is true damage. Then you get the slow and the fear on the enemy team while executing one of them and none of them can kill you with Stoneplate activated.

Moody P4 votes

nerf base execute threshold and give it an AD ratio, nerfs LCS build handily and compensates his soloQ ones

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Ooh, I just memed on increasing the scaling, but adding execute scaling is actually a great idea.

Might need to be a bit careful with implementation... having Urgot execute people at 50% would also be bad news.

Vlada Cut3 votes

They have a ranged Juggernaut the same weaknesses as a melee Juggernaut. Ofc LCS will force him to build tank defenses.

warpenguin5552 votes

Agree. Urgot doesn't need major nerfs imo, but he shouldn't be building that much tank and succeeding

Critmaster Garen2 votes

what if they shifted power from his shield into his e?

they could reduce the value on his shield and give him bonus armor/mr on his e for a few seconds, when he flips an enemy champion.

this would add a bit more counterplay to his kit with his opponent being able to dodge the flip, but still let him keep his survivability if he plays well and hits it.

another option would be to cut the shield scaling in half and add a % missing health heal to his passive when he procs 6 legs within a couple of seconds.

sounds like the problem isnt really that hes building tanky, but that hes hard to trade into with his shield.

chipndip12 votes

...actually I kinda like your first idea in this post a lot. A shield and damage reduction on one button's insane. Putting the damage reduction on E makes him have to actively work for it, rather than just slamming a button.

Bârd2 votes

It's a similar deal to Trundle as far as pro play goes.

They're mostly playing Urgot for his disruption and his ability to reduce a tank's HP by 25% instead of his actual carry potential or damage output.

saltran1 votes

Agree, good post.

DragonShea1 votes

2-3 damage item and full tank afterwards. THAT is how juggs are meant to be build. People are just salty that they can't deal with a jugg that is effective.

Nevrankroaton1 votes

Just nerf the freaking combo of corrupting potion + cookie + elixir stuff.

It is the simple thing that made him so easily get lane dominant. That and he isn't keystone dependent at all so he can use very well spellbook.

EchoZeero1 votes

What need to happen is one of two things;

1-Prevent Urgot from using movement abilities and movement activated items during a short window after his ult until the fear triggers. 2-Remove the fear affecting champions.

chipndip11 votes

So make him shit in organized environments again?

The ultimate goal of League balance is to have as many champs that are good/good enough for both solo queue and pro play as possible. He has a niche right now as a tank executing juggernaut that strikes fear into the entire enemy team while being super hard to take down. If he's nerfed, we can't just nerf the one thing he's good for with no fallback plan.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Juggernauts have never been picked or played for their CC. The number of juggernauts who completely lack hard CC is astounding (DrMundo Illaoi Nasus Olaf Shyvana Trundle Yorick ).

Nerfing Urgot's ability to win a fight with a teamwide is not a bad thing. His goal should be dealing lots of damage. If players want to inflict massive crowd control on the entire enemy team, they shouldn't be picking a RANGED champion to do that over someone like Malphite or Amumu, right?

chipndip11 votes

I mean, I thought the goal was to add diversity to games, not shrink it because it doesn't play the way you want it to.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Role niche promotes diversity, role confusion removes it. We refer to these kinds of champions, like Nami or Lee Sin, as 'generalists'. Meaning they can perform multiple beneficial factors to the team, which makes them a far more useful pick than a specific champion who is tailored to one of the benefits they provide.

See here: if Urgot is both as durable and with as high a damage output as a juggernaut, but he also has crowd control like a tank, he makes other picks in both roles worse. Why pick Darius over Urgot, when Urgot has comparable damage and an AOE fear? Why pick Sion over Urgot, when Urgot has way more damage and comparable CC?

In general, champions should pick between high CC or high damage, they shouldn't have both. The exception is mages as a whole, and that's fine because mages are squishy as hell and we all get to laugh as their mains beg for melee-tier itemization like that's ever going to happen.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAubERJt,comment-id=000c000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-16T04:32:46.868+0000)

Role niche promotes diversity, role confusion removes it. We refer to these kinds of champions, like Nami or Lee Sin, as 'generalists'. Meaning they can perform multiple beneficial factors to the team, which makes them a far more useful pick than a specific champion who is tailored to one of the benefits they provide.

  1. Lee Sin has a clear niche as an early-game oriented diver that's taken into the jg. Nami has a clear niche of being an aggressive enchanter pick picked for early game sustain/bullying and team fight follow-up cc that shines in the mid game, rather than being super good at peeling enemies or heal spamming through team fights in later stages of the game (She can try, but she's not as straight forward for peeling and she's not as quick for healing).

  2. What does ANY of this have to do with Urgot when he's CLEARLY not a generalist champion, anyway?

See here: if Urgot is both as durable and with as high a damage output as a juggernaut, but he also has crowd control like a tank, he makes other picks in both roles worse. Why pick Darius over Urgot, when Urgot has comparable damage and an AOE fear? Why pick Sion over Urgot, when Urgot has way more damage and comparable CC?

  1. You're comparing "others in the role" and then drop Sion. He's a tank. Also, Sion sees pro play regularly.

  2. Darius and other jugs that aren't Trundle and the occasional Mundo have other issues that keep them out of the pro scene. Just cause Urgot found his way in doesn't mean they will if Urgot found his way out.

In general, champions should pick between high CC or high damage, they shouldn't have both. The exception is mages as a whole, and that's fine because mages are squishy as hell and we all get to laugh as their mains beg for melee-tier itemization like that's ever going to happen.

And they do...so...?

Urgot's picked for the execute. He isn't picked for his "insane dps". Idk what you're onto but it isn't "the right answer." He's lost plenty of games after the hype wore out, too.

Maligaro Spike1 votes

I wish he scaled better with AD tbh, once you have item 3071 you don't really need anything else since all your damage is loaded into your Passive that is %max HP dmg and an execute with no scaling.

He also has got one of the worst durability among Juggernauts since he doesn't get any crazy healings like Darius or Illaoi or a Steroid like Garen or Nasus but instead has a shield that scales with HP forcing him to get tanky items in order to not have his shield blown up.

Beacon Academy1 votes

Just get rid of the fear and boom:

No more crab purposefully running into 5 people because now its called suicide instead of CC.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

So what you're saying is...

Lower the base damage and increase the scaling? ;)

The Ecdysiast1 votes

If Ryze is any indication of how Riot feels about the average player when the LCS is abusing something with an easy fix, you're going to get ignored.

SugeMinPikk1 votes

The simple solution is the same solution to him abusing sterak's. Just make GSP melee only

terribleplAyr1 votes

Urgot negates 1/4 of an enemy's hp and defense and after one patch of pro play... broken, pls nerf

Fiora negates OVER 1/2 of an enemy's hp and defense with arguably no more skill required... seems legit

hilarious when you look at it this way... and I'm no urgot enthusiast.

73illRiskIt1 votes

Fiora no skill required lol, thanks for the laugh

terribleplAyr1 votes

After a certain elo... she really doesn't. You have crazy stupid sustain. Your riposte lasts longer (and can block multiple abilities) than noc or sivir spellshield. Your q gives easy harass that auto-prioritizes enemy champ vitals and then dashes you back to relative safety too fast for most opponents to punish w/o engage of their own and is on a very low cd. Your ult insta-negates over 50% of an opponent's hp while urgot ult negates a whopping 25%.... and it heals you. If you use it intelligently, you're basically guaranteed at least 3 of the 4 vitals - which are oh so easy to proc via aa after popping ult and then q behind them to get 2nd and another q on low cd. Which more or less forces the opponent to use a gapcloser to disengage and/or forces them to hug a wall to defend 4th vital... because you also get giant movespeed advantage when you ult... meaning they can't really just run away. So if they hug the wall, it prevents you from getting 4th proc and the healing, but it also means you can whale away on them w/o them really being able to retaliate for the generous ult duration. Because if they do retaliate, a good fiora uses that to pull them off the wall and use a q to get the 4th vital.

So yeah... she's not half as hard as people make her out to be. She might not auto-win at all points in the game, but eventually she auto-wins duels vs over 90% of toplaners. And the rest are basically skill matchups where it's close to 50/50. I mean in bronze or silver, she's not the best, but once you get players with pretty solid basic mechanics she is pretty damn easy compared to many other champs.

PortableEgg1 votes

I think the biggest problem of urgot for solo/duo queue or non pro play is his base HP and the shield scaling he gets on his W from building into HP. While Aatrox is still in a good position of dueling him 1 vs 1 on top with his own ult which counters his and Aatrox Q range is just perfect to hit first Q while he wanna lasthit 2nd with a bit of moving after the first Q and ghostblade active and the thrid also with Q+E. Aatrox also outdmgs Urgots sustain pretty good but I think if you nerf either his base HP in early stages or his W HP scaling on the shield the champ would be not be considered "too strong" since there are not many matchups that can handle him well in early. Darius can also win the matchup, but he also got a buff on his W not long ago. Urgot is a strong lane bully in early with range, his high dmg passive procs against melees and he has a lot of base tankiness, making it even harder to 1 vs 1 him in most melee matchups. Viktor is a decend pick to but doing cheese top picks are just not a good way of playing around a champ thats considered "OP" by a lot of players in the community.

However, I never lost against him with Viktor or Aatrox. Also I'm just a plat v pleb and could be completly wrong. See ya on the rift fellas.

ReDopShadow1 votes

generally just delete him and make him broken again

5050BS1 votes

They did that

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