Wu Kong and Diana have the same problem

chipndip1·Jul 12, 2018·63 votes·14,455 views

They're both divers that are only relevant when they become high tier assassins. Both champions seriously need looking into, because that shit is beyond toxic.

64 Comments

OurLestradeJul 12, 201834 votes

I still dream of the day Diana is made into a genuine AP fighter sort of champion instead of an awkward pseudo assassin that has no place being an assassin.

La BelloJul 13, 201817 votes

{quoted}

I still dream of the day Diana is made into a genuine AP fighter sort of champion instead of an awkward pseudo assassin that has no place being an assassin.

will never happen because AP fighters have no items that give them the proper mix of defence + relevant damage needed.

all "AP fighters" really end up as Lichbane assassins basically or extreme full damage face melters with a wonky shield ability tossed in. Mordekaiser Akali Ekko Fizz Jax Elise Rumble Kassadin

The only way this doesn't happen is if the kit is made to be like half-fullish tank innately so you can just get like a RoA or a Rylai's then bank on ridiculous base damage and tankiness. Chogath Galio Gragas Singed

If "AP fighters" are ever going to be an actual thing then Riot would have to majorly rehaul the current ability power items OR rehaul the ratios and kits of ap fighters (mainly Rabbadons and its toxic interaction w AP scaling) to make them rely on a different slew of items so "fighters" wouldnt be forced into the same glass cannon itemization most normal mages are. Unlike how Bruiser itemization(Steraks,cleaver,Titanic,Mallet,T-Force) and Carry Itemization (high penetration lethality or glass cannon crit) Ability power itemization tends to operate as a "one size fits all" which makes it so several different classes of mages are all balanced around the same core set of items.

chipndip1Jul 13, 20183 votes

{quoted}

will never happen because AP fighters have no items that give them the proper mix of defence + relevant damage needed.

all "AP fighters" really end up as Lichbane assassins basically or extreme high damage face melters.

Tbf: There's only 3 ap fighters in the game, which are Morde, Elise, and Diana.

Morde plays like an AP Darius in a way. A lot of life steal, and pretty bursty off Q.

Elise plays like an AP Lee Sin. Strong close-in tools, early game pressure, falls off hard.

Diana plays like an AP Wu Kong, who plays like Rengar with some aoe cc...who is an assassin.

If "AP fighters" are ever going to be an actual thing then Riot would have to majorly rehaul the current ability power items OR rehaul the ratios and kits of ap fighters (mainly Rabbadons and its toxic interaction w AP scaling) to make them rely on a different slew of items.

I made this point a while ago. You can't really flesh out "AP fighters" if you don't have "AP fighter items." It's the same issue with mage supports. They have to be super reliant on base values because they don't even get to build shit.

SpecterVonBarenJul 13, 20189 votes

You don't consider Rumble an AP fighter?????

Painted CeltJul 13, 20182 votes

An AP fighter version of Moonflair Spellblade for Summoner's Rift would be a good start. item 3170 ~~2,400 (480)~~ -> 2,900 (600) item 3191 + item 3101 +50 Ability Power +50 Armor +35% Attack Speed +10% Cooldown Reduction Unique Passive - Moonflair: Basic attacks deal +30 bonus magic damage on hit and cause enemies to burn for [10% AP] magic damage over 3 seconds. Unique Passive: Tenacity [...]

The 10% AP ratio over 3 seconds seems like a minimum number to feel impactful while being low enough that the buyer doesn't feel required to stack AP in order to get the value of the item. The item would be good for AP skirmisher/fighter type builds and the flat on-hit damage makes it a good early item that doesn't require a lot of other offensive items to go with it.

I also created a new icon and name that could be used, though the item has a different effect/cost in this particular image than is outlined above: https://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F0Elw2Y0.png&key=f0abbd34f14549f3a15cd94dd9970851&width=425

I think AP fighter itemization should rely on base ability damage amplifiers, like magic pen, MR shred, sources of added flat magic damage, and less AP than regular mage builds. Examples: item 3170 item 3001 item 3152 item 3151 item 3091 item 3165 Items that add significant AP scalings or high offense amplifiers without providing defense can be good as well, but they would be for squisher AP Skirmisher (Skirmishers being in the same Slayer class as Assassins) type builds. item 3115 item 3124 item 3100 item 3146 item 3135 item 3285 So you'd ideally take from both sides of the spectrum for AP fighters depending on your needs in a specific game. Things like item 3027 item 3102 item 3157 item 2065 item 3116 could also fit in AP fighter builds.

Example full builds: Diver Diana item 3047 item 3170 item 3091 item 3001 item 3152 item 3742 Skirmisher Diana item 3006 item 3151 item 3115 item 3124 Assassin Diana item 3020 item 3100 item 3285 item 3157 item 3135 (with transcendence)

LordGeovanniJul 14, 20181 votes

Id rather not give mordekaiser tenacity and attack speed until they gut his Damage and make him to to fight over time Even if he has to get a larger base hp pool instead of pressing q and if you arent running from the first swing you are garenteed to get hit with the third unless you have an excape spell

TormentulaJul 14, 20181 votes

AP divers were killed when AD divers got everything they needed to outclass them.

item 3053 item 3156 item 3026 item 3812

vs. item 3157 ( self stun) item 3102 (popped by even a luden's echo from poke)

LordGeovanniJul 14, 20181 votes

as an ad champion i totally want to lean on only 50 armor to try to do my job. Ap divers die because people playing ap divers want to build full damage in every slot and dont want to build defensive items to work their damage over time like every ad fighter barring broken shit like riven and fiora. Ad fighters only viable build paths are item 3748 item 3071 into full defense, item 3078 into full defense, item 3053 into full defense, or into full defense. and the defensive items dont change either they are item 3194 item 3075 {{item:3742/ item 3068 item 3111 / item 3047 .

Shatter the SunJul 18, 20181 votes

If they made some of the items adaptive stats instead then this would fix and break a lot of things but if they give diana a passive that converts AD into AP then we could finally see some diversity. Imagine Diana with Essence Reaver or Static Shiv.

Lous RidicuJul 13, 20181 votes

The thing is itemization is a serious issue if she had the ability to convert AD to AP (with a 1 to 1 ratio or w/e) playing her as a fighter would actually work unless they actually made useful items for AP fighters (actually APs in general) or otherwise changed her kit (like lower ap ratio on ult, moving attack speed buff on e to q, changing e to a more useful ability unless you're playing aftershock, allow you to proc moonlight on passive something like making Moonlight debuff more interactive like adding a micro stun on it to Moonfall while consuming the debuff on other enemies having you do some aoe initiation opposed to just popping some poor adc while ulting, or putting the attack speed back into her passive (too many changes that could be made)) but until then the only thing you can do is stack raw AP everything else is pointless especially at this time when anyone can pop you (and many people do pop you while being way better at it as well as maintaining an absurd amount of safety)

If this is whining about that T1 shit are you even aware of what happened from the perspective of Suntail and how much more ahead he was as Diana compared to Lucian...he had something like 500+ AP add in Electrocute and W being up before he even flashing in for the kill....really doesn't take much to kill some chump like that especially these times.

Z3SleeperJul 13, 20181 votes

I think if she had more AoE and E wasn't on a 20 second cooldown maybe she could work as a fighter instead of a assassin.

VelvetCrotchJul 13, 20181 votes

Yep, waited curious too how they wanted to make it, but till know it never happend. :<

And Wukong... unlike Diana he has at least some escape. But of both get fed they face-roll hard on the enemy team. Especially Wukong a pure terror in low Elo. I REALLY hate this champ (+ some few others)

Power CosmicJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I still dream of the day Diana is made into a genuine AP fighter sort of champion instead of an awkward pseudo assassin that has no place being an assassin.

Me too. :-)

DragonSheaJul 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I still dream of the day Diana is made into a genuine AP fighter sort of champion instead of an awkward pseudo assassin that has no place being an assassin.

She needs a nerf to her damage(mainly burst) and a buff to her durability.

ACriticalThinkerJul 12, 20189 votes

Improve your skills! Then find me again.

Lous RidicuJul 13, 20186 votes

LMAO how is Diana even a problem when everyone else shits on you playing her? If you are over 400 AP maybe you have a chance to pop someone really fast perchance that they have no MR while you have Magic Pen but before that try one shotting someone and cry about her afterward if anything look at Zed, Talon, and other hosts of bullshit like machine gun Taliyah.

chipndip1Jul 13, 201812 votes

It's a design issue, not a power issue.

She isn't strong now because she'd be cancer if she was.

Lous RidicuJul 13, 20181 votes

True but a lot of champions beside her are more of an issue than she will ever be currently (defending my Diana because what the hell man.)

Regardless I hope she gets a rework pushing her more towards being a real fighter/diver maybe with some power moved away from Q and R into your W and E especially if there's more interaction with moonlight debuff giving you opportunities to make more meaningful choices besides going aloha snackbar @ a squishy on the enemy team resulting in you having to use zhonya's or die immediately after.

Crescent DuskJul 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It's a design issue, not a power issue.

She isn't strong now because she'd be cancer if she was.

How would she be cancer? She'd be an AP Wukong.

Basically a ghetto assassin without working disengage tools in a teamfight which makes a real assassin far more desirable.

She has no mobility so her roams are shit. If she gets 2v1'd she can't escape like a Talon, Ekko, Fizz or Zed.

I mean, she virtually has to be a freaking bazooka because the end result of 2-shotting an ADC is always her death shortly afterwards no matter how well she plays.

DarkSoul1994Jul 13, 20185 votes

Were you even playing LoL the last time Diana was viable in pro play? She was absolutely cancerous.

Crescent DuskJul 13, 20183 votes

The only time I hear this is from ADC's who don't like being caught isolated when they make the terrible decision to split push instead of leaving it to a Fiora or Yasuo or Tryndamere who will fuck the living shit out of any Diana that tries to go stop them.

Diana even gets stomped so badly by Yasuo, Vladimir, and even the likes of Anivia (Anivia's passive pretty much assures Diana kamikaze'd for nothing).

This is just the age old complaint of squishy champs getting blown up by a burst champ.

I don't like getting 2 shot by a Veigar in late game, but if you have a modicum of understanding how Veigar works you realize that if you allowed him to emerge from lane phase even then it's your fault he got big in late. There are many champs that require being shut down in laning and Diana is one of them as her laning is pretty garbage against several champs.

DarkSoul1994Jul 13, 20182 votes

I'm a Bruiser Jungle main - this has nothing to do with 'playing a squishy champ and getting blown up by a burst champ'.
Diana has been deliberately nerfed out of viability in pro play. She has a 'rough time' against most of the Mid Lane roster because she's meant to be bad. Diana is a champion who is not allowed to be viable because her kit is toxic. At any given time she will always either be viable and therefore unhealthy for the game, or not worth picking over any other diver or assassin.

Crescent DuskJul 14, 20182 votes

Half the assassins are toxic anyways, so Diana is not special on that regard.

The obvious solution to an assassin is a solid frontline and CC+shield supps.

Diana even if made viable cannot do much when you pick a Zilean supp or get a Rakan with exhaust or a Braum just basically cockblocking anything you can do.

That's why you barely see assassins in pro play, because your team is basically sieging 4v5 while you wait for one of the opponents to misposition.

The alternative is to split push like Zed and Talon do, but if the team has a Fiora/Trynda/Kled/Yasuo/Jax split pushing, you can't even go split push as an assassin effectively.

Diana feels awful to face against in soloQ but like most assassins with any competent support and frontline they don't get to do much.

chipndip1Jul 14, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o9Kfl3lE,comment-id=0007000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-14T04:53:31.775+0000)

Half the assassins are toxic anyways, so Diana is not special on that regard.

SHE'S NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE AN ASSASSIN

HayaishiJul 12, 20184 votes

Just gut them both into the ground until they are reworked.

Nobody should have to deal with this BS.

Getting instagibbed before you blink shouldn't be a thing in season 8. This game has come to far for this to still be a thing.

litterlyfeJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Just gut them both into the ground until they are reworked.

Nobody should have to deal with this BS.

Getting instagibbed before you blink shouldn't be a thing in season 8. This game has come to far for this to still be a thing.

You literally have the worst opinion and it's an extremist one at that. Wukong is like garbage over diamond 5 and you want him nerfed yet he fails to preform in elos where better players reside. Let that sink in.

Attticus FinchJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You literally have the worst opinion and it's an extremist one at that. Wukong is like garbage over diamond 5 and you want him nerfed yet he fails to preform in elos where better players reside. Let that sink in.

What do you have to gain from lying on the internet? Do you really think it woild be hard for someone to take 5 seconds out of their day to do a google search and prove you wrong?

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/MonkeyKing/master/

IfnethJul 13, 20184 votes

Diana is especially unhealthy when strong. She becomes tanky, bursty, and sticky, with enough free attack speed to deliver DPS. Once she hits you with one skillshot, even if you’re with your team, you’re just dead.

Crescent DuskJul 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Diana is especially unhealthy when strong. She becomes tanky, bursty, and sticky, with enough free attack speed to deliver DPS. Once she hits you with one skillshot, even if you’re with your team, you’re just dead.

Then your supports are not doing their job, because a Lulu shuts that crap down real quick as does a Morgana or Rakan.

BlåbæretJul 13, 20184 votes

Are people actually complaining about Diana?

Lmfao.

Moon MomJul 13, 20182 votes

ikr. bugged to hell champ no one plays anyway.

imprôviseJul 12, 20183 votes

Diana needs a Xin Zhao-like rework. Wukong needs a full on VGU

chipndip1Jul 13, 20184 votes

The problem with that is that there's no room in Diana's kit to give her that treatment to begin with. Her rotation is too front loaded.

The moment she hit-confirms Q, she R's onto you and toggles W, which all explode when she lands on you. Then she just R dashes on you again for more damage. Her hole rotation's insanely fast.

Morgan le FeyJul 14, 20181 votes

Dropping the W burst would go a long way towards fixing the problem. Dropping the damage and CD on her R would help some, too, pushing it more towards a stickiness tool than burst damage. Alternatively, dashing to Q marks could reduce the CD on her R instead of eliminating it entirely, preventing her from Q-R-Ring people down. With less burst, more durability, and better AP fighter items, she could become a much more stable pick, and a real AP fighter.

MizayaJul 13, 20182 votes

Yep that's why I stopped playing Diana

You either become unstoppable if you snowball early or end up doing nothing if you fall behind. Not very fun

BigViJul 13, 20182 votes

The only difference is that Diana has counterplay while Wukong is a broken piece of shit and anyone that plays Wukong is a worthless human being that just wants to ruin shit.

LordGeovanniJul 13, 20181 votes

Dianna's only problem is that people expect her to be an assassin. She is a great fighter If that is what you expect from her.

chipndip1Jul 13, 20183 votes

I mean, she's supposed to be a fighter...

LordGeovanniJul 13, 20181 votes

And she proforms well as a fighter just that people Just want to completely ignore the defensive items that fighters have to build and go full damage.

Subject 5Jul 13, 20181 votes

Honestly I fear Diana mains.

There is a combo called the Fast Moon Combo or some shit. You can ultimate before using your Q and then use your ultimate again for the reset, and it's fucking insane. Though in the end Akali is just the superior Diana IMHO.

Lous RidicuJul 13, 20182 votes

RQ Combo high tempo involved and low turnout even if you're able to replicate it because it's very inconsistent considering mobility/cc (if you're in a team fight situation gl living even if you pull it off)

SpecterVonBarenJul 13, 20181 votes

No. There are very big differences between them. Diana suffers from having a generic kit while Wukong's problem is that his kit is designed far too heavily for teamfights to the point that he has no place he works in the early game unless he's capable of becoming a one shot assassin through items.

Crescent DuskJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No. There are very big differences between them. Diana suffers from having a generic kit while Wukong's problem is that his kit is designed far too heavily for teamfights to the point that he has no place he works in the early game unless he's capable of becoming a one shot assassin through items.

Pretty much. Which is why people take him jungle or to favorable mid lane match ups since he's a garbage champ when he's behind.

chipndip1Jul 14, 20181 votes

Wu Kong and Diana's issues are that they're both divers that are so front loaded that their entire usefulness as champs are compacted into the very first moment of engagement, and then they sort of waddle around and get slain somehow. Their play patterns shove too much damage in too quickly, then have nothing else for them to do.

Dream HighJul 13, 20181 votes

Nothing like losing 75% of your health to Wukong mid lvl 2. Can't even bully pre 6 in a meele range match up.

Crescent DuskJul 13, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dream High,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o9Kfl3lE,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-07-13T14:09:13.162+0000)

Nothing like losing 75% of your health to Wukong mid lvl 2. Can't even bully pre 6 in a meele range match up.

lol bitch please. Renekton and Darus shit on him. So does Trundle.

Dream HighJul 14, 20181 votes

They probabably do but I'm not comfertable plaiyng those champs especially mid.