After a handful of games, I think I nailed the biggest issue Aatrox actually has.

ModCaptainMårvelous··30 votes·12,479 views

Before you ask: No, it's not the clunk. I actually don't find it that bad with a bit of practice. Numbers idk. I usually do decent damage and can make up a pretty good aggro-soak/off tank. These have been personal experiences from the jungle and I've had both good and bad games with him. (I've played around 6-ish games getting a feel for him with one being a meme game with my pals) With all that said, I think I've found the main complaint:

Q2

With Aatrox's Q, both Q1 and Q3 seem to have logical places: Q1 is your catch-out/poke tool that (if you land) to start your combo. Q3 is your most reliable Q but also your shortest range. So the question is where does Q2 sit? What Riot -seemed- to shoot for was the middle ground: Not quite as long as Q1, not quite as reliable as Q3 but your best tool for knocking about multiple targets and also the widest swing.. The problem is that in execution it doesn't work so well.

Q1 can set you up but Q2 will be too short to hit them. So you go "Oh so I should E-Q to hit them right?" Well, because Q2 is too "long", you'll likely miss it and be too close to them (Which sets up for Q3). Then you say "Ok cap, so I should E backwards to hit with the edge there right?" In which case you're out of range for your Q3 which may also suck because you could have used two Es by then.

Q2 is also important because it's the lynchpin between Q1 and Q3, both of which I don't find bad at all. Because of this, Q2 ends up feeling even worse and causes your other abilities to suffer. It's also the one I've found requires E the most, regardless of if I'm there or not.

To fix this for the future, I wouldn't do much: Either give it 50-100 range or remove 50-100 range. You'd think the removal is a nerf but bear with me. By removing the range, Q2 becomes more of a middle-ground between Q1 and Q3, which makes the advancing E follow-up easier and leaves you in a better position to Q3. In adding range, Q2 would become more akin to Q1 and allow you to attack from a similar range. (Quick Edit: I'm not good at ranges so I assume 50-100 shouldn't be too big. The goal/intent is to make it match Q1 better due to the curve of Q2's arc.)

All that said, I'm going to keep practicing and see if Q2 feels better with more playtime. I certainly don't want this buff tomorrow and I still want to give it some time to set. Anyways, that's just my thoughts from someone who played both old and new aatrox as well as the biggest painpoint I've had in playing him. (Jungle trox is fun though!)

44 Comments

ModKnightsKemplar12 votes

You make really valid points, but I actually don't agree in the end.

If you shorten or lengthen the range, then you'll be required to use E to land all of them well, basically. If the range is shorter, you would need to use it to hit Q2. If it's longer, correct position for Q2 would mean you have to E to hit Q3.

I think that's ultimately bad for his design. The enemy should be trying to mess up your ranges on those, but I found that they weren't that bad if you're landing all your slows and the enemy is running away. If they aren't, then they are playing it correctly and you'll need to adjust. He needs that counterplay, though, or he'll be just as binary as he was before.

Prediction: Aatrox is a higher skill champ now than people realize; he'll increase win rate a lot over the coming weeks. Changes would not only risk over-buffing, but also upset the learning curve at a critical time.

Barcid1 votes

I still stand by the statement that if he were allowed to just move during his Q at a decreased movement speed, you'd have the same effect as his E basically with no worry that he might be overwhelming (just due to how much his sweet-spots actually do) since they're still dodgeable and the player has to position correctly - and then you can have something entirely different on his E that isn't a stapled on tid-bit meant to compensate for his Q's stop-and-go style. I stress this because his E never feels appropriate for his kit at all besides being used for his Q, which really calls attention to the "why" of his Q mechanics.

Little late now, but, I mean, Rek'sai had her ult changed dramatically, I don't think Aatrox is out of the question to get a change as well in the future...

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

That's probably the best suggestion I've seen... but you don't want to make it too easy to hit either. The point here is that the critical area does a lot of damage. It's pretty strong.

I'm worried they would have to reduce his damage if he could move while using it; the E is harder to aim and execute, which means his damage can be higher to compensate.

Automated Riven2 votes

I am gonna play a bunch tonight but I have rather agreed with the other guy. It's seems odd that all of his damage (essentially) is in his q. It makes his counterplay extremely bianary. And the reduced Ms could be like a 50% self slow. So he would feel for the player (hopefully) like like he is winding up for a huge attack. But it would help alot with how wonky he feels. And how much damage has to be in his q in order for him to be remotely viable. It would be nice if he had some sort of mechanic in his e to encourage specific positioning from his opponent, so he can create multiple areas of threat and for the opponent to choose which option they want to get hit by. (or play better and escape)

HolyJellyMate7 votes

How about his cds, and his trash ass ultimate?

thecowley2 votes

{quoted}

How about his cds, and his trash ass ultimate?

More then anything, why doesn't his tooltip tell me what stats he is gaining with it? How much ad and ms is he getting exactly?

Leto GT1 votes

You've to press shift to see the details of hise so its probably the same.

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

{quoted}

How about his cds, and his trash ass ultimate?

The CDs I haven't had much trouble with (perhaps because I jungle with him?) but the Q deceives people because the CD starts at the first cast. So a long CD of like 16 seconds is more akin to 11-ish. 8 if you wait out your Qs all the way to the timer. W and E have decent CDs but I'm really not spamming them unless you go for an all in.

The ult I find pretty decent too. The big thing for jungling is that it gives you a free dive and lets you soak skillshots while you're drawing aggro. I also think people kind of misuse it and wait til the very last moment when you should be turning it on around 50% through the fight.

Again, all of this is personal experience and maybe your mileage varies. So far I haven't had too much trouble with neither CDs nor ultimate at least when played from the jungle.

{quoted}

More then anything, why doesn't his tooltip tell me what stats he is gaining with it? How much ad and ms is he getting exactly?

I remember a while back Teridax and I were talking. We both suggested Riot consolidate long ability descriptions with a shortform (Aatrox Q as is) and longform (Pressing shift) for those who want them. It should probably be a toggle in the options rather than a "press shift to see more" though. Or perhaps a mouse-over for more info?

Power Cosmic1 votes

{quoted}

The CDs I haven't had much trouble with (perhaps because I jungle with him?) but the Q deceives people because the CD starts at the first cast. So a long CD of like 16 seconds is more akin to 11-ish. 8 if you wait out your Qs all the way to the timer. W and E have decent CDs but I'm really not spamming them unless you go for an all in.

The ult I find pretty decent too. The big thing for jungling is that it gives you a free dive and lets you soak skillshots while you're drawing aggro. I also think people kind of misuse it and wait til the very last moment when you should be turning it on around 50% through the fight.

Again, all of this is personal experience and maybe your mileage varies. So far I haven't had too much trouble with neither CDs nor ultimate at least when played from the jungle.

I remember a while back Teridax and I were talking. We both suggested Riot consolidate long ability descriptions with a shortform (Aatrox Q as is) and longform (Pressing shift) for those who want them. It should probably be a toggle in the options rather than a "press shift to see more" though. Or perhaps a mouse-over for more info?

So everyone is wrong and you are right? I am not trying to intentionally add on negativity or troll; just attempting to hopefully get you to open your eyes. I read your reply about Q cd, and we both know that how your Q combo goes is hardly entirely up to you. So intentionally Q'ing to get minimum CD is unrealistic a vast majority of the time. Therefore Q'ing someone else, that doesn't want to get hit, can be more trouble than its worth given a summoners other options. The ult can definitely do what you said, but its impact and satisfaction are factually F-tier compared to the other champs in this game. Think about the ult's of Olaf, Yas, Trynd, Darius, Garen, Sion, Illoai, Kled, WuKong, Riven, Fiora, Ornn, etc.... then compare it to Aatrox's... Being biased to the point of blindness doesn't help your good friends at Riot.

Baron of Bread2 votes

Personally, I am not fond of comparing Riven and Aatrox (that can be reserved for a different post), but it helps get something across here.

I think the ult is definitely at least on the same tier as Riven's. Riven gives you an AD steroid, a bit of range, and an AoE execute. Aatrox's gives an AD steroid, move speed (mostly out of combat), and a revive. I won't say there is a gut feeling of power when you press R, but that doesn't mean the ult (which has a strong defensive element, unlike most other ults, in the revive) doesn't have a huge impact.

The cooldown on your Q is long because it has ridiculously high damage, more damage than Riven's Qs even if you don't hit the sweet spot. In lane you don't even need to hit the Q, you just need it to force someone to miss cs or take huge amounts of damage.

TheCodeisCupCake2 votes

{quoted}

How about his cds, and his trash ass ultimate?

His ult is such a let down. I honestly thought he was getting ready to ejaculate the first time I saw it

Pika Fox2 votes

From my own brief experience, it seems to sit at the perfect range so you can Q1, close to auto attack and Q2. If they run away, theyll hit themselves. If they stay close, e away will land the sweet spot.

Kai Guy2 votes

Q2 is a bit odd. Im finding it more usefull for pushing waves, or zoneing away from waves. Most the time in a rotation I just overshoot the Q2, if they back off they get hit by the sweetspot and I can EQ3 If they stay in it they take some damage and are still in range for Q3 and I don't have to burn an E charge.

I am gonna aim for 20-25 games on him before I pass any firm judgment. Honestly so far It feels like he is a AD caster in how reliant he is on Q and W.

Cosnirak1 votes

So much this! I think people have this expectation that he needs to hit the sweet spot on all 3 Qs and he simply doesn't. He can win trades without hitting any sweet spots in fact. It's often the threat of it that gains you some advantage.

Kai Guy2 votes

I need more games in before i get to preachy about whats gonna make for good aatrox mechanics. That said, So far i have a few moments where i use the Q2 sweetspot to keep folks inside his W. Aim it to cut off escapee and folks have to pic the trade off of being dragged in for damage or knocked up and take extra damage, some times they waffle and both happen which is grand.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Would it be balanced to remove the Q2 and just make him have Q1 and Q3? Or would that create problems?

I guess I'm asking if there's an important balance/counterplay purpose for the Q2 to be there...?

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

{quoted}

Would it be balanced to remove the Q2 and just make him have Q1 and Q3? Or would that create problems?

I guess I'm asking if there's an important balance/counterplay purpose for the Q2 to be there...?

lmao no. You'd have to remake the entire ability and redo scaling, CD and more.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Damn haha, so much for that then!

Auz the Ripper1 votes

I’m ok with that

thaBeast1 votes

i miss him being more auto attack centered

Galiö1 votes

I actually think aatrox is better jungler than laner now. His sustain is ok, and clear is really good. It's also easier to hit his W and Q during a gank than laning since it's all very projected.

I still find him weak but that's his optimal role imo.

Troll for Trump1 votes

What about his W? It sounds good in practice but it rarely ever gets to hit in lane. I guess the idea is to clear waves with aoe Q and throw in W when minions aren't blocking it, but again, that rarely happens (and you shouldn't be hardpushing regardless).

Jgl aatrox doesn't have an issue with it because he's using it to flank, but in top lane it's like a worse Kled Q for farming

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ðownright Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o33g9dGF,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-06-28T17:23:24.090+0000)

What about his W? It sounds good in practice but it rarely ever gets to hit in lane. I guess the idea is to clear waves with aoe Q and throw in W when minions aren't blocking it, but again, that rarely happens (and you shouldn't be hardpushing regardless).

Jgl aatrox doesn't have an issue with it because he's using it to flank, but in top lane it's like a worse Kled Q for farming

Yeah, I think his top lane needs more help than his jungle but it's going to cause a predicament where top lane changes to Aatrox will end up making his jungle even better. (So it might be a situation like Vi where he's designed as a top laner but ends up in the jungle.)

While I don't think W is that awful a skill, I wouldn't be opposed to it going through minions/small monsters. Maybe have it hit cannon or super minions? It'd be a small buff but that's the most I'd do to W in regards to top lane.

Kai Guy1 votes

Once i get more matches to have mechanics down better, i might honestly try him mid.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I actually think he might be really good in Bot lane. His Q1 and Q2 are a good range for catching marksmen standing at the edge of their attach range to fight him.

Edit: lol @ me, forgetting that marksmen aren't played in this meta. Yeah mid lane it is XD

Kai Guy1 votes

I gave arcane a shot. Decent poke but 2v1 tops you get Destroyed. Lane is easy to snowball. Gave him a juggernaut build. it was ight. ran grasp. Tried Unsealed spell book and ran ignite. kind of worked ish… not great.

I will grind out mechanics, looking like he will be a counter pick rather then some one i run into anything. If i find a good playpattern i will come back and let ya know.

Side note hal. you got to try kindred adc in this meta. That W change to give lamb sustain and the fact her R is such a good defensive ability... plus so many melee heavy comps she can WQ kite, W provides rude poke under tower or vs high hp targets, im sitting there laughing at 400 damage for 40 mp wolfs my boy. and man her range growth is stupid. i got 300 range between RFC and her passive.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Sweet, I'll keep that in mind! Thanks for the suggestion :)

Saezio1 votes

What elo did you try him? And 6 games is laughable to exact a conclusion imo. If you played say 20 games and got from plat 3 to plat 2 i will be willing to listen.

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

{quoted}

What elo did you try him? And 6 games is laughable to exact a conclusion imo. If you played say 20 games and got from plat 3 to plat 2 i will be willing to listen.

Mostly norms, as it's suicide to try a new champ in ranked regardless if it's good or bad. I have no idea what the ELO/MMR is in those games. I plan on playing more, mind you, but so far the Q2 has been my biggest problem and the aspect of Q that I have the most problems with.

Leverette1 votes

His ult has several problems. He can't cast his ult through his lengthy Q animations, so if he has a Zed jump on him as he's in the middle of a Q, he can't spam R to keep himself alive. He's gonna die because that Q takes three days to animate and he can't R during or shortly after it.

Or, in the event that he does press R, then hits Q, then dies, he can not come back out of his resurrection and continue swinging with his other two uses of Q. Nope, the animation takes too long and it doesn't delay the recast window, so you went from fighting to being useless because Q is your only attack and your autos suck now. So you just sit there and wait to get killed as you swing your pool noodle at them.

Oh and speaking of Zed, good luck hitting him with even the weak parts of your Q. You're never gonna hit that guy. You're gonna die and he's gonna be full health.

cemorn1 votes

I have about 30 games on astron on the pbe, and a couple on live and I totally agree. The sizing/shape of his Q2 really feels out of place.

Linna Excel1 votes

What if all the forms of his Q had the same range? Not an aatrox player, so that's why I'm asking.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o33g9dGF,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-06-28T19:32:40.403+0000)

What if all the forms of his Q had the same range? Not an aatrox player, so that's why I'm asking.

Part of Aatrox's Q (or at least what I think Riot's trying for) is that his Q is a mid-range advancing tool. By the time Q3 rolls around, he's on top of you. All being the same range would require some wonky placements (mostly with Q3) plus would make his passive even more confusing as he's a mid-range fighter but with a close-range passive.

Kai Guy1 votes

I really want his passive to be buffed a bit. make it cleave, or make it interact more with his ulti. my 2cents. still grinding mechanics out and testing shit.

Velasan1 votes

I would agree with that after playing him.

I didn't have any problems using him though. He doesn't play like a juggernaut, he's closer to a bruiser, and he works better out of the jungle than top lane.

Old Aatrox was also sometimes a jungler so it makes sense from that perspective. You don't play around the ultimate unless you're using it to dive or engage a team fight, it's just for the utility. The W seems really good to me.

MakeOutHiIIXXX1 votes

He’s designed for top lane but played jungle I wonder why.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

{quoted}

He’s designed for top lane but played jungle I wonder why.

Hardly the first time such a thing has happened.

Vi was designed as a top laner but ended up in the jungle. Tahm Kench was designed (from the start) as a top laner but ended up a support. Then you got shit like Mundo which just goes top, jungle or whatever.

Just how things end up tbh.

Meep Man1 votes

Tahm Kench started DESIGN as a top laner, but the designers were like "huh, this is actually closer to a Support", and made him to be more of a Support from there. He was never released as a Top Laner.

Just clarifying what you said.

Modl Ryden l1 votes

Q1 is to see how your opponent will react. If you land the tip, Deathbringer stance basic attack will be in convenient range to attack without moving. After consuming his passive enchanced basic attack, he will automatically move forward to perform another basic attack command which will also conveniently place him in Q2's tip range.

LatetotheRace1 votes

I thought His third hit Q was the issue. If it centered him on it after cast, similar to his original Q it would be more effective and feel a lot smoother.

Lil Homie busta1 votes

But where the First and Second Q's have place when they (your opponents) are in your face? Sure, it does make sense if you're starting a fight, but what about when you're the one who's getting initiated? Should Aatrox be that helpless in those situations? What about when you're already fighting a champion at melee and don't need engage?

His Q was made only thinking on the engage. That's the problem. For everything else, is very, very unreliable. Hence why the whole skill should be reworked, or at least the AoE format.

Meep Man1 votes

I usually E kind of diagonally of someone to hit Q2. Forward and backwards aren't the only directions.

C9 Squeeky 1 votes

You say it's not the clunk but isn't basically what this post was about? The Q2 clunkiness. Agreed tho. What I find "clunky" for lack of better term is I keep wanting to move during the Q animations (like with Darius Q or Camille W) but I am forced to either root myself or move a set distance with E. I'd feel better if Aatrox was able to move freely during Q casts/recasts and make E a real ability.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

There's a difference between "clunky" and "awkward hitbox". It's not that Q2 is inherently a bad ability but rather that it has an awkward place between Q1 (Very long range) and Q3 (Very short range).

Also apparently he could move during Q in playtests and it was so horrendously busted that they had to weaken every ability to compensate, which felt bad. I personally think they're not TOO hard to hit once you get a feel for the timing.

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