Can we remove the minion snowball? Minions getting stronger based on level difference is unhealthy

DongsAndShrooms·Jun 25, 2018·17 votes·8,703 views

People say that it's there for players that are behind to farm easier, but with how pitifully paper-thin towers are all it really does is chip away at your turrets bit by bit and make dives that much easier because your turrets are almost always going to be pushed in.

Not to mention how lategame it makes life for the behind team utter cancer because you'll have enemy waves autoshoving to your towers while you're trying to group for teamfights to try and turn shit around.

It's unhealthy and never should have been added to the game in the first place.

18 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarJun 25, 20185 votes

At the time it was added, I think there was a strong case for it. Even then many of us disagreed, but I saw the logic at least.

NOW, though, since we're already looking for ways to reduce snowball... this is a decent suggestion.

HethaleanJun 25, 20183 votes

I thought minion snow ball was a 'come back' factor since it helps the losing team in some ways more than the winning team. Since more minions of theirs live for you to collect at your towers giving you more gold and XP than they get.

DongsAndShroomsJun 25, 20183 votes

Maybe that could have been a plausible reason when it was first introduced, but now with damage being at an all time high and towers being nerfed back to back it's nothing but another hurdle keeping comebacks from actually happening.

Kai GuyJun 25, 20181 votes

It does its job, gives behind teams more opportunity's to recover some $. Rewards ahead teams to stay aggressive. That's what it was made for and it accomplishes that well.

How ever, Op you have some good points about it being a bit oppressive in current game state. So although I do not support its removal, I fully support making some adjustments to its functions to make it feel better. As mentioned in my other comment here the mechanic is gone when everybody hits 18. Lowering that to a lower value, like say 11 or 16 makes it become a non factor in late game faster. It was fine when late game ment folks are all near 17-18 but that's not the current Leauge so it needs to be looked at with consideration to the current state.

PB4UAMEJun 26, 20181 votes

It was literally added so that winning teams could have an easier time closing out the game.

That was the purpose and stated intent.

It just so happens that if you don't win while flooding their base with minions that auto push for you, that they might farm those minions better than you are while you're not ending the game, and so they can get closer to your strength. Especially given that the gold difference you have is less significant as time goes on and more items are built on both sides, and item space itself becomes the limiting factor.

Kai GuyJun 26, 20181 votes

"First is game pacing. Many folks out there are experiencing faster games on 5.22, and we're seeing that reflected in about a minute off the average game-time. We've got some changes to address that (namely turret health and %xp from kills), along with some revised minion pushing changes. That said, it's helpful to clarify our stance: this isn't about faster games. Some games will be faster and some will be slower, but the goal is to reward being decisive. If you have a massive lead over your opponents, capitalize! Waiting around or being indecisive will see that advantage slip, opening the window for comebacks. TL;DR: finish your plate, or your food'll bite back."

"We covered this in 5.22's notes (even though the change didn't actually go in), so let's reiterate what we said in the foreword: this change is about decisiveness. Use your advantage and push in for the win, or give your opponents the means to come back. It's a fairly simple concept, but it does fundamentally change how lane dynamics work. Especially at higher tiers, wave manipulation (and what form it takes in league) is changing entirely. We're not doing this lightly, and we ask that you give it a shot and let us know what you think. We've got our eyes on it - if this isn't accomplishing our goal of getting the winning team to press their advantage (and instead, destroys the fabric of League of Legends as we know it), we'll quickly iterate and respond rather than letting it languish."

Same patch, They also buffed a few towers by 500 extra hp. Nerfed Kill EXP gains a bit.

Pretty shure its intent is was force ahead teams to push for a win using the minion advantage, Failing to do so just funnles Gold into a behind champion. That's how it functioned, it was fine, it worked as intended. I remember what lost lanes could feel like. Ever play Kassadin mid Vs Pantheon back in the day? It was freaking awful.

Moving forwards, Looking at the game today.I would say that yes, It needs to be adjusted to the current game state. But allowing ahead lanes to Freeze minions and bully you out of cs indefinitely IS NOT GOOD EVER. If a game last 10 min longer just cuz lane phase is delayed an extra 8 min so that top and mid who won lanes (picked arbitrarily.) can enjoy bullying some one to get themselves a solid lead before going into teamfights. That is trash.

PB4UAMEJun 26, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o1E9M0Yv,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-26T07:15:48.563+0000)

"First is game pacing. Many folks out there are experiencing faster games on 5.22, and we're seeing that reflected in about a minute off the average game-time. We've got some changes to address that (namely turret health and %xp from kills), along with some revised minion pushing changes. That said, it's helpful to clarify our stance: this isn't about faster games. Some games will be faster and some will be slower, but the goal is to reward being decisive. If you have a massive lead over your opponents, capitalize! Waiting around or being indecisive will see that advantage slip, opening the window for comebacks. TL;DR: finish your plate, or your food'll bite back."

"We covered this in 5.22's notes (even though the change didn't actually go in), so let's reiterate what we said in the foreword: this change is about decisiveness. Use your advantage and push in for the win, or give your opponents the means to come back. It's a fairly simple concept, but it does fundamentally change how lane dynamics work. Especially at higher tiers, wave manipulation (and what form it takes in league) is changing entirely. We're not doing this lightly, and we ask that you give it a shot and let us know what you think. We've got our eyes on it - if this isn't accomplishing our goal of getting the winning team to press their advantage (and instead, destroys the fabric of League of Legends as we know it), we'll quickly iterate and respond rather than letting it languish."

Same patch, They also buffed a few towers by 500 extra hp. Nerfed Kill EXP gains a bit.

Pretty shure its intent is was force ahead teams to push for a win using the minion advantage, Failing to do so just funnles Gold into a behind champion. That's how it functioned, it was fine, it worked as intended. I remember what lost lanes could feel like. Ever play mid Vs back in the day? It was freaking awful.

Moving forwards, Looking at the game today.I would say that yes, It needs to be adjusted to the current game state. But allowing ahead lanes to Freeze minions and bully you out of cs indefinitely IS NOT GOOD EVER. If a game last 10 min longer just cuz lane phase is delayed an extra 8 min so that top and mid who won lanes (picked arbitrarily.) can enjoy bullying some one to get themselves a solid lead before going into teamfights. That is trash.

So they literally say "Some games will be faster and some will be slower, but the goal is to reward being decisive. [...] this change is about decisiveness. Use your advantage and push in for the win" and cap it off with "if this isn't accomplishing our goal of getting the winning team to press their advantage (and instead, destroys the fabric of League of Legends as we know it), we'll quickly iterate and respond rather than letting it languish"

Yet you some how seem to think the quoted portions are saying they are a means for the losing team to come back? No, it was literally all about ending games sooner as at the time there were similar complaints to now, where games were effectively over long before they ended, and this was a means to have them close out sooner.

As to the rest of what you said, I vehemently and fundamentally disagree with virtually everything you have posted. This section, "But allowing ahead lanes to Freeze minions and bully you out of cs indefinitely IS NOT GOOD EVER. If a game last 10 min longer just cuz lane phase is delayed an extra 8 min so that top and mid who won lanes (picked arbitrarily.) can enjoy bullying some one to get themselves a solid lead before going into teamfights. That is trash." could not possibly be more misguided and false.

If laning mechanics (such as denying CS, freezing waves, slow pushes, countering pushes by messing with your minions so they clash just under tower instead of just past it, and other general wave management shenanigans) do not matter or matter less as this change caused, then that is real and valuable knowledge as well as skills being tossed to the wayside in place of the game automatically doing those things for or against you, without your opponent lifting a finger, let alone even being aware of what is happening nor how. We need to revert back to the time when laning lasted a solid 15+ minutes so that we can have the game stages LoL was created with and balanced around to begin with, once again. Early champions need a chance to be strong and dominant or else there is no point to play them-- but the early game should not cause a steadily increasing snowball on resources that are supposed to be equal for the two teams (in this case, their minion waves) by making the advantage even further in the winning team's court with literally no action or input on their part. If this continues, there will remain no reason to play late game scaling champions, as the early snowball effectively shuts them out from ever reaching their late game fantasy unless they somehow snowball the early game themselves (which usually requires jungle camping or a vast disparity in skill).

It would be like if the winning team in a basketball game not only got more money mid game to buy and trade for better players, and actively improved based on baskets scored (gold and the leveling snowballs by themslves) but then also had their hoop narrow making it harder for you to score, and then also had your hoop widen giving them an easier time.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 25, 20186 votes

That wasn't the stated goal of doing it. It also weights the waves so that the "winning" team doesn't have to go back to their side to deal with large waves very often.

It incentivizes the winning team to stay on the attack, in other words. If they don't stay somewhat offensive, they will start to lose out on cs. But in this meta, I'm not sure it's doing what it was supposed to do. At this point, late game wave management basically doesn't exist.

Anyone else remember the good 'ole days where "super waves" were a thing? Can't do that anymore. Used to take effort to build up a good wave in a side lane. Now it just happens for the winning team. For free.

GayFluffyUnicornJun 26, 20183 votes

Yeah i remember that. Specifically taught that my ranked team back then who wouldnt believe me how important that is and how little people played around it. Like even against high dia teams we were the only ones to actually play around these huge wave slowpushs. Another strategic aspect gone from league due to riots boner for 5v5 aram deathballs.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 26, 20181 votes

You know, I actually don't hate on Riot very much. I typically think they do a decent job.

But they have definitely fallen prey to listening too much to one side of the long/short game debate. They have simply done too many things to increase snowball, and they did them over only a season or two. This is what happens. Late game has disappeared, playmaking is the only way to reliably win, and older players that enjoyed strategic decisions and split-push elements are left frustrated.

Get rid of minion advantage, get rid of first blood, and allow your strategic players to have some strategy to what they do. Strategy and playmaking should be in tension; one should not be a more reliable way to win than the other.

Dasdi96Jun 25, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I thought minion snow ball was a 'come back' factor since it helps the losing team in some ways more than the winning team. Since more minions of theirs live for you to collect at your towers giving you more gold and XP than they get.

No, it's a snowball mechanic because it just ensures the behind team can't contest neutral objectives or get towers to get back some global gold. If the difference is really bad, sometimes the behind team can' even contest their own jungle.

Zane ZephyrJun 25, 20182 votes

It was incorporated so the team that was ahead could close out the game easier.

It Hertz When IPJun 26, 20183 votes

That's literally what snowballing is.

Kai GuyJun 26, 20181 votes

Let me rephrase Zane. It was incorporated so that the team who was ahead Needed to close the game out as it gave defending team more opportunity's to generate gold at lower risk.

Note the patch it was added, Tower HP buffs, 500 for 2 tiers, 3k more Hp on towers per team. EXP gains from kills nerfed. Death timers went up 10 min, lower 40 Min.

Consider that what happened if only one lane 1 lost badly. Minions now pushing ALL lanes. Good minion control mechanics on other 2 lanes gives them advantage in lane, it goes from an even lane to they have the advantage of positioning and defending. Jungler on the losing team now has a better window to hit every lane in the game. The player who lost, now has more time spent near their tower. If theres 1 lost lane per team, the mechanics pretty natural.

This is not snowballing. The minions pushing in was not inherently an advantage unless you used it to push, and that is not always an option then at any given moment. See games went on longer so if one dude did well but the rest of his taem was eh, its not really a great window of power.

Look realistically it probably is not unreasonable to say Hey riot, lets address this mechanic and get it inline with the current game state, its removal how ever is a mistake.

Its not the state change, it was not added to snowball games. It was to force action and nerf lane bullys.

My Waifu VanillaJun 26, 20181 votes

Except even if the enemy team is ahead a wave with 8 creeps will always push towards a team with only 6. You can still VERY EASILY set up a slow push regardless of whatever the levels are unless it is so massively different that you are better off surrendering anyway.

I Support SolarJun 25, 20183 votes

100% agree. This is pure nonsense that winning team can always 5 group whenever they feel like it and lose nothing but losing team has to constantly go bot or top to clear minions before they kill the tower.

Automated RivenJun 25, 20182 votes

I actually support this. Even at the risk of having waves frozen against me.

Kai GuyJun 25, 20181 votes

So, if your losing lane, like you already behind to the point your just a grey screen risk. The fact that some one can just dive you when your pushed in for a kill means that your always at a higher risk when outside of turret aggro. If your dead meat with a tower backing you up, your dead with out one.

I think that the mechanic is good for behind players, it gives you the opportunity to focus on CS, prevents some of the more brutal wave freezes and lane bullying.

However, Looking beyond the mechanic itself to the current game state, Yes I agree it does contribute negatively to a behind team when we consider other factors. Personally I think its better to change other parts of the game over the minion growth, or to just make some modifications to it.

Lets look a few.

Games don't hit max level. This mechanic balances out when left alone, how ever the game time realistically means we don't often see both teams hit 18. Solution, Lower the Max level, Or put a cap on the Max EXP gap. Lower Max level means that the mechanic goes back to natural creeps faster. Putting a limit on the mechanic, where waves don't get any stronger then X best case makes it a more consistent mechanic.
towers are weak. I want towers to gain more damage rather then durability. I can live with them being at risk unprotected, I think they would feel much better in function if they where a stronger deterrent. Personally The change id like is if Warming up passive on towers gained some % from when it hits a minion.