I wish there was another AP Armor item, something with a purely anti Physical effect

DongsAndShrooms·Jun 24, 2018·116 votes·20,343 views

Something along the lines of +

I would massacre an entire way of life and sacrifice what makes them people for an item like that so I can actually have a chance to be on equal footing against the who are all allowed to sit on forever and move on while AP champs are shoehorned into this sub optimal joke of an item because that's the only fucking option they have to mitigate an AD's burst (Which will always have a CD lower than 120~)

It's depressing.

157 Comments

ktjnkkJun 24, 201887 votes

Zed mains if riot added a ap item with physical damage shield https://t4.rbxcdn.com/3473e750e82f58a7cda3a6e930497e2e zed players when they buy hexdrinker https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/423877656820580354.png?v=1

Sire HippingtonJun 25, 20182 votes

i doubt zed mains would care much... Most other ad-assasins would curse the havens, but not zed, zhonya's still would remain the go to hardcounter not because of the armor but because of the stasis as his burst is windowed and very telegraphed.

madgamer312Jun 25, 20188 votes

Doesn't it also have a much lower cooldown than 120 though?

Sire HippingtonJun 25, 20181 votes

he doesn't have a proper oportunity as soon as his ult is off cd though, and if you want to, there are two masteries reduceing the CD by a total 55%...

madgamer312Jun 25, 20189 votes

Yes let's just take those on a Mage, I'm certain a certain resource they all share wouldn't dry up really quickly.

Good thing Zed doesn't have to worry about that with his braindead Energy huh?

Need Gold 4 TentJun 26, 20185 votes

Akali Kennen : <Laughs in ninja>

Need Gold 4 TentJun 26, 20185 votes

Garen Riven Katarina : <Laughs in resourceless>

kasfasJun 26, 20184 votes

Kled :< Laughs in Skaaaaaarl>

NaymlissJun 24, 201832 votes

Yeah, I agree. item 3157 is comparable to item 3139 , but there is nothing to match item 3156 . Then again, it will never happen, riot has too many feast or famine champions who would be gutted if they added it including: MonkeyKing , Zed etc

Acheron16Jun 25, 201810 votes

Zhonya's isn't even close to be comparable to Mercurial Scimitar.

Zhonya's is pre-emptive whilst Mercurial is reactive Zhonya's makes you immune to everything except you are stunned, Mercurial Scimitar only clears (cleansable) CC and gives you a tiny speed boost.

Don't just look at the stats and say "yeah, they comparable" when the actives are insanely different.

NaymlissJun 25, 201811 votes

Merc makes it so you have 100% uptime on your AAs in combat, which is what AA reliant champions want, while zhonyas freezes and allows for CDs to come up, which is what mages want.

Pretty comparable to me.

XxDRAGONsAK47xXJun 25, 20187 votes

how the fuck do you think Fizz players feel?

2/0 against a zed until he buys hexdrinker.

Never kill him again

TekkenPlayerJun 25, 201815 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBuP4JPjJYY&feature=youtu.be

Sire HippingtonJun 25, 20184 votes

and? Zed barly survives syndras combo from near full health with the shield from a defensive item he invested in, and in return drops syndra only to ~40% with his all in. He mitigated her killpreassure against him by giving up kill preassure him self.

Hextrinker might be on the strongside for the lane matchup, but it's not an auto win like mages like to claim and it delays important item spikes that are needed for high kill threat like duskblade. it's not a default buy but something you opt into if you have a rough time in lane. If you look at the popular bults for midlane ADs at https://euw.op.gg/champion/statistics, few of them have hextrinker in their core builts, and if they have those are the builts with a lower winrate than the non-hextrinker builts... Same at http://www.probuilds.net, you will hardly find any hextrinker in ad vs mage matchups...

Daddy AntsJun 25, 201815 votes

Zed Mains are having a right bitch about Seeker's and Zhonya's.

https://www.reddit.com/r/zedmains/comments/8tl2yt/my_latest_rant_will_probably_get_0_comments_on/

God forbid that anyone can itemize against Zed.

CHAMP SUCKS CUZ AP CAN INVEST 3000 GOLD INTO A ZHONYAS.

When Zed and Talon only need an 1100 gold Serrated Dirk to start OS'ing people

IceKingChernobogJun 25, 20185 votes

Zed main reddit.

Theres your problem

Critmaster GarenJun 25, 201814 votes

how about no?

why do mages need to be ranged, bursty, tanky and loaded with cc? if they get something like that, i want an item for juggernauts that lets me flash on targets.

the entire reason why mages arent getting more defensive items, is because theyre supposed to be squishy, because theyre already ranged and cc loaded and have the best kiting in the game.

i already disagree with all those defensive marksmen items. no need to make it even worse.

FirewaterDMJun 25, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X5u4dqXJ,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-06-25T00:56:23.212+0000)

how about no?

why do mages need to be ranged, bursty, tanky and loaded with cc? if they get something like that, i want an item for juggernauts that lets me flash on targets.

the entire reason why mages arent getting more defensive items, is because theyre supposed to be squishy, because theyre already ranged and cc loaded and have the best kiting in the game.

i already disagree with all those defensive marksmen items. no need to make it even worse.

There's a big disparity, sure defensive ADC items kinda are annoying but they don't really take away from their damage/are useful.

The point isn't to make a 100 AP/100 Armor item, because even if nice it would break the game, the point is that outside of the active, which CDR 100% means Talon/Zed/Yasuo/Irelia Ult will be up faster than, Zhonya's is shit.
Unlike AD's, AP's lose out on large amounts of damage/needed stats, like IF you have to go Zhonya/Tabis as a mage, that's a huge amount of AP and Mpen that you lose. Meanwhile QSS/Hexdrinker long term end up being far more effective on AD's, sure they get simiarily behind if one is foolish enough to rush both of those items instead of just 1, BUT the end item doesn't drastically set you behind.
Even if Seeker's gives you more stats (after 30 CS and not by much) Sitting on Seekers makes you still a sitting duck/oneshottable after one completed item. Meanwhile AD's continue to win trades/survive with just a Hexdrinker/QSS, like IF a AD and a AP lane went the same build/went completely even then 1 v 1'ed, the Duskblade/Hexdrinker/Mercs AD will beat a Ludens/Seekers/Tabis 100/100 times in terms of trades, granted that's a less than optimal build and doesn't assume player skill (Or than Armor pen/Lethality is many times better than Magic pen).
We aren't talking about AP assassins/fighters, we're talking about the slow as shit and squishy mages who more and more are losing the tools (mana, CC) that gets checked back far easier from the AD perspective.
who cares about ADC's, they get to use the same busted shit w/o losing damage as AD assassins/fighters, and the same logic applies there/more because even in a game w/o an assassin Mages just...well don't compete in current league with a few exceptions to a full build adc because in most cases the ADC has no real reduction in damage if in AA range, whereas the mage is gated by cooldowns, skillshots and mana. (not even talking about how lifesteal/phantom dancer/death's dance are all things that further reduce damage)

TL;DR:

Mage/AP champ players would be less irritated at AD defensive options/begging for their own if

A. you could itemize vs. 5 AD without still being oneshot by everything after 1 Lethality and/or Armor Pen are built but a Hexdrinker makes your damage a joke unless already hella fed or you have Void/Sorcs/Morello's

B. People wouldn't call you a troll/you're completely useless if you prioritized Armor/gave up massive amounts of needed stats to survive versus mostly AD teams.

C. ADC's/Assassins aren't gated by mana/cdr as much as mages + are far more mobile, mages need something. especially since mid/late game Zhonya + Tabi doesn't do shit versus autos and getting more Armor, hell getting the tabis instead of Sorc shoes gets you accused of trolling.

ModAcademy KaynJun 25, 20183 votes

Just a side mention, or two, but in general Mages have more options for health in their builds than Assassins do, along the fact that they can build Zhoynas. Secondly, Hexdrinker is a decent first buy off the start, because of the fact that it builds into a shitty item for assassins. No matter what, a Mage will be able to make full use out of Zhoynas and it's stats regardless.

Not disagreeing with you, just throwing in my 2 cents.

LordGeovanniJun 25, 20181 votes

Mages dont share jobs with adcs or assassins. This will trigger alot of people but mages are not supposed to kill anyone they are supposed to apply initial burst to weaken enemies at the beginning of a fight and riot gave them much too forgiving mana costs and cooldowns not to mention how all the mage items are loaded with mana Mages have the most forgiving mana costs/ mana pool ratio assassins and tanks will have 1/3rd of mages base mana pool and no mana on their meta items or mana regen because unlike mages mana on their items goes into the items power budget while mages get their items power + tacked on mana. Assassins are just as cooldown reliant as mages but unlike mages they will use their auto attacks because they are in a much more dangerous place thus cant afford to just blow spells and say i did all i could instead of auto attacking to finish some one off or applying what damage they could. Another unpopular thing is that Assassins shouldnt be oneshotting anyone either assassins should be going in to clean up kills on hurt enemies this pairs with mages burst as mages do inital burst and assassins do clean up.

Sexy Jack RabbitJun 25, 20187 votes

Riot has literally stated that Mages are designed to be potential damage carries. So you're entire statement is void from that one statement. Mages like Zoe Syndra Veigar exist to kill other champions with missing health% damage and backloaded burst.

You're entire statement ALSO lacks sense when you realize that Mages and Assassins SHARE the midlane. You're statement that they work together makes no sense because the combo never occurs unless you're running a Jungle Assassin which greatly damages team compositions, or have a Zyra botlane. Unless you have a true Assassin Jungler like Evelynn (literally one of the sole surviving Assassins rn) the point you're trying to make will literally NEVER occur in any match.

Violet FieldsJun 25, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X5u4dqXJ,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-06-25T00:56:23.212+0000)

how about no?

why do mages need to be ranged, bursty, tanky and loaded with cc? if they get something like that, i want an item for juggernauts that lets me flash on targets.

the entire reason why mages arent getting more defensive items, is because theyre supposed to be squishy, because theyre already ranged and cc loaded and have the best kiting in the game.

i already disagree with all those defensive marksmen items. no need to make it even worse.

Then why are fighters allowed to be mobile, flashy, bursty, and sustainable all in the same boat, I'm mostly talking about Irelia

Critmaster GarenJun 25, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Then why are fighters allowed to be mobile, flashy, bursty, and sustainable all in the same boat, I'm mostly talking about

literally the most extreme example you could find. no one is pleased about irelia or camille right now.

and op was also complaining about darius. which i highly disagree with giving mages items to be able to fight him, when they already failed at kiting him and keeping their distance, which is already simple enough for them.

by adding more armor/health to mages, you would make it neccessary for every single fighter to be irelia, to be able to still function. if you balance the squishy backline classes around the existence of one or two outliers, you make every other fighter in this game garbage.

id rather balance that one outlier.

bbQsauçeJun 25, 201811 votes

[deleted]

DongsAndShroomsJun 25, 201825 votes

Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't lethality scale? So they end up negating item 3191 (Which also needs a whole 30 CS to fully stack btw~)

LumendoJun 25, 201815 votes

You are technically right as in both Youmuus and Duskblade give both 18 lethality and sudden impact gives 9 (not sure on that one) so it totals to 45, so it cancels out at lvl 18.

This is irrelevant though because at lvl 18 the mage is just infinitely more usefull than any assassin.

So two items worth of pen get negated by 1100 gold.

bbQsauçeJun 25, 20185 votes

[deleted]

AmazoXJun 25, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Mmmh nope. Seeker's actually negates 2 items worth of lethality + sudden impact even at level 18.

Duskblade + ghostblade is 36 armor pen, sudden impact is 10 so 46 total. Fully stacked seekers is 45 armor.

This is true.

PB4UAMEJun 26, 20182 votes

If your pen negates their armor, you've won though, you still get extra damage from the AD on those items, and the actives/passives and other stats they provide. Even more so than the value of the AP + the armor when fully stacked (which y'know, it needs to be stacked, kinda an important point that's glossed over here) when that's all the item provides. It doesn't have an physical damage only shield like Hex, or any other passive/active to it.

bbQsauçeJun 26, 20181 votes

[deleted]

PB4UAMEJun 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

So 1100 gold item negates 5800 gold worth of lethality + sudden impact rune and somehow it's a win? lmao

You mean the only 810 gold they spent on the 36 lethality they actually bought? Lethality only costs 22.5g per point.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Youmuu%27s_Ghostblade http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Serrated_Dirk http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Duskblade_of_Draktharr

Try actually looking at the cost analysis.

then factor in all the other stats, passives, actives, etc that those items give them, that still massively increase their damage, then add in their base damage, their auto attacks, etc. Seeker's provides a small amount of flat armor once its been stacked and nothing else defensively. If you match its armor with the lethality from item 3142 + item 3147 then of fucking course the assassin wins, they get to keep the CDR + AD + MS + On hit nuke + free constant sweeper's lens + all of their damage is effectively unmitigated and bypassing the defense the mage invested into. How is that not a complete and utter win on behalf of the assassin? All the defense the mage purchased is gone, and none of the non-lethality offense/utility of the assassin has been touched.

ZeromatsuJun 25, 20188 votes

Don't forget they can easily pick up Nullifying Orb to completely render you useless in laning.

The most frustrating moments are when playing against ad champions. Yet they get so many defensive options like GA, Hexdrinker, qss or even Steraks that you just can't do anything against.

Reading some of the comments just shows how delusional some people are. How would one more defensive option for mages break the game?

JavelinJoeJun 24, 20186 votes

I would like another item too, but I can see form a play style standpoint as to why there is not. Almost every AP champion is burst and/or combo based or DoT based (Swain and Cassiopeia for example). Where most AD is either continuous (such as in AA based marksmen and fighters) or burst after a delay (like Zed's ult for example).

item 3155 is a great passive to counter burst. The shield can prevent most combos from 1 shotting while the amount of MR can soften up the poke damage to a somewhat more manageable rate.

item 3157 is great vs combo burst champions who have to all in to kill (mainly assassins). The active makes any combo less effective, if not completely nulled. The armor also weakens the poke from abilities. And for just 1100g, the 45 armor and 35 AP from just item 3191 is not a bad deal, plus it has no cooldowns to deal with, unlike item 3155 .

The reason they are set up like this is because most AP champions either out range or can out maneuver most AD champions. Champions like Lux, LeBlanc, or Xerath should have no issue with harassing a squishy immobile marksmen from range or with their mobility. So the amount of incoming trade damage should be small. 45 armor should be enough.

Where as an immobile and squishy AD would have minimal opportunity to win the trade/poke war, let alone the instant kill threat. The shield prevents the threat of instant death every so often and the MR staves off some of the chip damage.

In this case I would say Zhonyas is actually preferred. It does everything that is needed for a burst AP champion to be effective and also counters the burst assassins, as well as stops a lot of abilities from working properly, as well as stalls for your abilities to come off of CD.

Now, there are those champion which do not follow the "rules" and make the items work better than intended. These are AD fighters. Champions with enough natural defensive stats to make them not squishy, and with good enough AD stats to make them a damage threat, along with mobility and/or massive sustain/shielding. The number 1 offender is obviously Yasuo followed by currently Irelia .

Sad thing is that there is not an easy way to introduce an item to counter only these champions without benefiting the counter to others more so than they need. For example, lets say a new item is made that gives a good amount of AP (like 70 or so) and also mitigates AD damage taken by the same champion by 20% for 5 seconds (think adaptive helm passive). This would prevent fighters from dealing that crazy repeated damage, but also would inadvertently nerf all marksmen severely.

tl;dr I agree it would be nice, but it probably could be very hard to make because of how it could significantly hurt other champions who are not part of the issue.

DongsAndShroomsJun 24, 201826 votes

Wow you AP oppressors sure can't read, spare me your BS "Oh I wish it could happen hurr durr"

item 3157 : 120 second CD

Common AD Burst champ items: item 3147 item 3071 item 3142 and the best addition item 3508 What do all of these have in common? CDR which will reduce their combo cooldowns even their Ultimates to something WAY FUCKING BELOW 120!

JavelinJoeJun 24, 20183 votes

You mean just like how item 3003 item 3285 item 3100 item 3115 item 3102 and many more AP items have CDR and also a rune too which lowers active item CD.

koshkyraJun 25, 201828 votes

CDR doesnt lower Zhonyas. It does lower assassin combo cooldowns.

Squidward DabJun 25, 20186 votes

The fact that people here actually think seekers is comparable to hexdrinker is laughable, the item does jack shit, the only reason you buy it is to quickly finish ur zhonyas. It has terrible stats for a first item considering most mages need mana before hand.

Also, you do realize that items like rod of ages and archangel take time for the full effects right? Whereas ad items instantly get whatever shit they have the moment it’s purchased.

And if you’re gonna tell mages to purchase items like deadmans and armour items with no ap at all, then why don’t you just build spirit visage and lets just remove maw? Oh yea, because it only provides mr with no ad

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

GorohJun 25, 20185 votes

It's been my experience that if you're building item 3156 then you're dying to your laner too much. Why the hell would a Zed or Talon skip item 3134 and an early item 3147 unless they're getting shit on. It's the same the other way around. would why I skip item 3802 on a mage like Lux Syndra or Xerath unless I'm getting fucked up by an assassin and need to rush item 3157 . item 3156 is actually a fairly garbage item and I honestly can't remember the last time I built it and I have 200+ games of mid/top this season. If i'm getting shit on as a bruiser the last thing i'm going to think about building is Maw, I would much sooner get item 3053 or any combo of items that bring much more to the table than 50AD and 50MR like item 3071 + item 3065 or item 3748 + item 3193 ... The problem here is that mage players would rather go a static core build then complain when they get shit on rather than counter-building like you're supposed to be doing every game. And there is no arguement that mage's don't have plenty defensive options. item 3001 item 3102 item 3152 item 3151 item 3165 item 3027 item 3040 item 3116

VekknaJun 25, 201814 votes

unless I'm getting fucked up by an assassin

It's a matter of when, not if. Usually "when" begins sometime between level 3 and 6. Even if the assassin is hot garbage and goes 0/5 in lane, they can still 100-0 you once that duskblade is finished.

It's been my experience that if you're building Maw then you're dying to your laner too much

Or you can build Hexdrinker to passively save you when the mage hella outplays you.

mage players would rather go a static core build then complain when they get shit on

I think mage players would rather have a choice between being free farm and having to rush a 3000g item that makes them irrelevant in exchange for a chance to not be killed-on-sight.

And there is no arguement that mage's don't have plenty defensive options.

item 3001 ZERO AP. item 3102 Have to sit on a Null while trying to farm out your next 2550g. item 3152 Are you suggesting that a Proto will prevent a mage from dying 100-0 from a Zed/Talon/Kha with Duskblade? item 3027 Great, let's wait 10 minutes with 0 CDR on a rush item item 3040 Great, let's wait 25 minutes with no survivability! item 3191 May as well have no armor for all the good it does

item 3155 Problem solved. Time to finish Duskblade.

MogarlJun 25, 20184 votes

I could even go for an armor tank item that doesn't have a large portion of it's value in an anti adc, or melee only passive. So that I could buy and sit on a chain vest. item 3025 is the closest thing available, but not every champion has synergies with spellblade.

AmazoXJun 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I could even go for an armor tank item that doesn't have a large portion of it's value in an anti adc, or melee only passive. So that I could buy and sit on a chain vest. is the closest thing available, but not every champion has synergies with spellblade.

item 3110 exists.

yoshi2790Jun 25, 20181 votes

But not everyone is melee for the passive to work.

Pokemonred200Jun 25, 20188 votes

That passive aura has 700 range. Given the fact that Abyssal Mask's aura range was 700 pre-nerf, and there were plenty of mages who still bought it when it had 700 range, the 'not everyone is melee for the passive' argument doesn't really fit.

(that being said, it doesn't exactly have optimal stats for mages, and its aura is an attack speed slow, so I'm not sure if it fits what OP asked for, being an 'armor tank item that doesn't have a large portion of its value in anti adc or a melee only passive'.

potchikerJun 25, 20183 votes

Inspired from a removed item called: Breathstealer

Stats +95 ability power +70 armor UNIQUE: +10% cooldown reduction

Active UNIQUE: Reduces target enemy champion's attack damage by 70% for 4 seconds (600 range) (90 second cooldown).

Recipe item 1058 + item 3108 + item 1031 + item 1029 + + 300 = 3850

Sex With AnnieJun 25, 201814 votes

This is the most broken shit I've ever seen suggested by anyone ever and the fact you thought this up worries me.

Acheron16Jun 25, 20186 votes

This is a circlejerk thread, what do you expect except post suggesting broken shit, posts claiming mages are always bad and posts hating anything that isn't a mage.

NaturesMayhemJun 25, 20181 votes

I get the appeal, but I believe mages should be purely damage and remain squishy. Their purpose is to burst and deal damage, they shouldn't be provided sustain on top of that.

RebeccaUCuberJun 25, 201815 votes

Try To burst a yasuo with item 3155 , resolve second rune tree and mr boots...just an example, but meanwhile, u explode everysingle time u are touched by anything :(

Crow NebulaJun 25, 201814 votes

The thing is, mages generally don't do enough damage to function as "pure damage" champions. They tend to have reasonable waveclear, but usually suck at dealing damage to enemy champions, at least in comparison to how squishy they are.