Tank Vs Assassin Logics

Teh Song·Oct 1, 2016·8 votes·2,648 views

Which Logic do you generally subscribe to? I oft find myself thinking both, to be honest.

"What's the point of being an assassin if I can't shred this tank despite his/her tankyness?"

"What's the point of being a tank if I can't survive and defeat this assassin despite his/her assassinyness?"

Wow, the communities more single-sided then I expected. I anticipated at least a quarter of the responses being people going

"OMG I hate when Tanks survive my burst the whole point of me assassining is to burst ppl"

As far as why the assassins attacking the tank anyway, I'd imagine it's because everybody else is already dead. That's generally when I end up on either side of a Tank-Assassin fight.

37 Comments

Mecha MaIphiteOct 1, 201619 votes

The point of assassins is to kill squishy damage dealers. Why an assassin would go for the tank in a fight is beyond me.

1 800 Top LaneOct 1, 20161 votes

Have you been to silver or lower?

PermabannedGarenOct 1, 20168 votes

Assassins should generally speaking not be able to go in and kill a tank in a team fight as their burst will be blunted by the tank's defense. Furthermore, the tank counters the assassin in team fights due to likely having a great deal of lockdown and peel, making assassinating them a bad idea most of the time.

With that said, tanks generally should lose duels to assassins, at least AD assassins.

GaleWinUnleashedOct 1, 20161 votes

Long duels, yes. Single-rotation burst from an assassin should not be enough to kill a tank, though.

Big LincolnOct 1, 20167 votes

"why did this retard zed ult the tank"

AstôlfoOct 1, 20165 votes

"Oh look at that, he did an incredible... 10% of my health."

EndlessSorcererOct 1, 20166 votes

"Why the fuck is the assassin going for the tank rather than the squishies?"

ValeckseraiOct 1, 20166 votes

Tanks should win. No question. Assassins are good against squishies, especially with flat armor pen items like item 3156 item 3142 item 3147 being core on many of them. They shouldn't be able to fight tanks as well. The whole point of a tank is to be able to soak up damage, not be instantly deleted.

PermabannedGarenOct 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Tanks should win. No question. Assassins are good against squishies, especially with flat armor pen items like being core on many of them. They shouldn't be able to fight tanks as well. The whole point of a tank is to be able to soak up damage, not be instantly deleted.

They can blunt an assassin's burst without being able to duel them.

Tanks are and should be bad duelists, generally speaking.

Golden Tager XOct 1, 20161 votes

http://www.dotafire.com/images/hero/icon/axe.png This guy wants a word.

PermabannedGarenOct 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

http://www.dotafire.com/images/hero/icon/axe.png This guy wants a word.

I'm not super familiar with Dota, but from what I understand it doesn't really have what we'd call "tanks". Axe is an early game ganker who seeks to snowball the game through his powerful early game before he falls off, right?

And from what I understand Axe gets fucking shit on by just about any carry into the late game, like Juggernaut (though I guess Juggernaut's closest comparison would be more Master Yi than Zed) or Anti-Mage (who I think is more of an assassin).

Golden Tager XOct 1, 20161 votes

Axe can actually take an Anti-Mage to town and back, as AM is a niche pick. Axe is very good at dueling, he just relies on getting near his enemy, like Darius, only more dangerous and has an easier time getting to his target. Juggernaut would actually be more comparable to Yas as they both scale faster, but not as hard as the rest. Axe can take the majority of heroes 1v1, but however certain carries can beat him, carries, not assassins, not mages, carries.

VasilisGreenOct 1, 20161 votes

Key phrase, "Soak up damage". When a tank does both that and what an assassin should do, then things start to go down the shitter

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 1, 20165 votes

assassins shouldnt kill tanks they are meant to blow up squishys, and tanks are meant to survive burst or being blown up but die to dps and sustain damage

AstôlfoOct 1, 20163 votes

Tanks generally laugh at assassins. Assassins generally can't do shit to tanks nor are tanks even their target in the first place.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 1, 20163 votes

lol if you think Katarina is gonna kill me as Maokai is laughable

XeruonOct 1, 20163 votes

Why an Assassin would focus a Tank is really beyond me.

Akali is SO HOTOct 1, 20162 votes

The last time an Assassin could reliably kill a tank was in Season 3 when armor pen was broken.

WarlockLawOct 1, 20161 votes

Calm down with that accusation. AP assassins killed tanks just fine back then too. Tanks just sucked

Phoenix Kotori Oct 1, 20161 votes

Leblanc disagrees.

Critmaster GarenOct 1, 20162 votes

tanks are meant to counter assassins with their cc, and their high defense to outlive their burst.

assassins are meant to take down squishy priority targets. thats why most of their items have flat armor penetration attached to them. the stat is supposed to be stronger against squishies who dont buy a lot of armor.

however, i feel like the ability to stack item 3071 and item 3035 items with flat armor pen, combined with % hp damage item 3147 breaks this rule. an ad assassin who stacks the fuck out of armor pen and has some lifesteal item 3812 will be able to duel a tank, fighter and a squishy marksman or mage.

which is why imo the penetration items should be changed not to stack as easily as they do. they should either commit entirely to % pen, or entirely to flat pen, so that while they have the option to get some damage amp against tanks, theyre not able to fight everyone. it should be a deliberate choice, not a side dish.

the same goes for pen stacking marksmen.

PermabannedGarenOct 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o0iOEEjN,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-10-01T01:41:45.039+0000)

tanks are meant to counter assassins with their cc, and their high defense to outlive their burst.

assassins are meant to take down squishy priority targets. thats why most of their items have flat armor penetration attached to them. the stat is supposed to be stronger against squishies who dont buy a lot of armor.

however, i feel like the ability to stack and items with flat armor pen, combined with % hp damage breaks this rule. an ad assassin who stacks the fuck out of armor pen and has some lifesteal will be able to duel a tank, or even a beefy fighter.

which is why imo the penetration items should be changed not to stack as easily as they do. they should either commit entirely to % pen, or entirely to flat pen, so that whyle they have the option to get some damage amp against tanks, theyre not able to fight everyone. it should be a deliberate choice, not a side dish.

the same goes for pen stacking marksmen.

Tanks aren't necessarily meant to beat assassins in duels. Also, why are you pretending that AP assassins do not exist?

What beefy fighter is being dueled by assassins? And which assassins are doing it?

Critmaster GarenOct 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Tanks aren't necessarily meant to beat assassins in duels. Also, why are you pretending that AP assassins do not exist?

What beefy fighter is being dueled by assassins?

how many ap assassins does the game actually have?

diana has been reclassified to a diver. there is Katarina

Akali akali is a hybrid champ, but might qualify as ap assassin?

i dont know what the fuck leblanc really is. shes a ranged, mobile assassin i guess.

and kassadin plays a lot like a diver aswell.

yes, theyre not going to duel fighters and tanks. thats why i didnt feel i needed to go into discussing them.

as for which assassin can duel which fighter, thats really dependent on whos up agaisnt who. but the % damage on that duskblade and the % pen combined with flat pen gives assassins often the ability to take out a beefier fighter aswell as a squishy.

though its true that these builds are more of a problem on marksmen than assassins. i just dislike the fact that % pen and flat pen can be easily stacked together to give reliable damage to take out beefy targets aswell as squishies.

PermabannedGarenOct 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o0iOEEjN,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2016-10-01T01:49:07.070+0000)

as for which assassin can duel which fighter, thats really dependent on whos up agaisnt who. but the % damage on that duskblade and the % pen combined with flat pen gives assassins often the ability to take out a beefier fighter aswell as a squishy.

though its true that these builds are more of a problem on marksmen than assassins. i just dislike the fact that % pen and flat pen can be easily stacked together to give reliable damage to take out beefy targets aswell as squishies.

But you didn't name who.

For an extreme example, there isn't a single assassin in the game a late game Nasus doesn't dunk on 1v1. The same is true of Trundle. For less extreme examples, Mundo shits on AD assassins generally speaking. Darius tends to. Even Garen can often burst them down faster than they can burst him down (his Q is also nice for dueling them), and he's the shittiest juggernaut duelist. For non-juggernaut examples, Vi can burst an assassin down very quickly, and her lockdown is enough to interrupt their abilities to damage her. Kled tears them apart one on one. Xin Zhao easily destroys assassins in duels. Irelia stomps them into the dirt. Warwick instantly wins against any assassin who didn't buy a QSS. He also wins against those that do.

So like, who are you talking about?

Hecarim? Yeah Hecarim might lose to them. He's a pretty shitty duelist for a bruiser.

NotCounterOct 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o0iOEEjN,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-10-01T01:41:45.039+0000)

tanks are meant to counter assassins with their cc, and their high defense to outlive their burst.

assassins are meant to take down squishy priority targets. thats why most of their items have flat armor penetration attached to them. the stat is supposed to be stronger against squishies who dont buy a lot of armor.

however, i feel like the ability to stack and items with flat armor pen, combined with % hp damage breaks this rule. an ad assassin who stacks the fuck out of armor pen and has some lifesteal will be able to duel a tank, fighter and a squishy marksman or mage.

which is why imo the penetration items should be changed not to stack as easily as they do. they should either commit entirely to % pen, or entirely to flat pen, so that while they have the option to get some damage amp against tanks, theyre not able to fight everyone. it should be a deliberate choice, not a side dish.

the same goes for pen stacking marksmen.

tanks arent meant to be duelists. when you say "tanks counter assassins" what you really mean is tanks provide cc and peel against assassins in teamfights which does not, and should not correlate to being able to 1v1 them especially when they built life steal and lots of pen

Critmaster GarenOct 1, 20163 votes

{quoted}

tanks arent meant to be duelists. when you say "tanks counter assassins" what you really mean is tanks provide cc and peel against assassins in teamfights which does not, and should not correlate to being able to 1v1 them especially when they built life steal and lots of pen

they should still be incredibly hard to take down for them. hard enough that it is risky to duel them at any point in the game and should take so long that the tanks teammates can easily arrive in time.

and while tanks dont deal a large amount of damage themsleves, in many cases they should still be able to beat the assassin in a battle of attrition, at the very least forcing them to back off, because otherwise theyd die.

assassins usually have a mobility advantage and being able to pull out of the fight justifies them losing to a tank over an extended trade. the tank might technically be able to kill the assassin, but he doesnt have a lot of kill potential on him since it should be a slow process.

NotCounterOct 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o0iOEEjN,comment-id=000900010000,timestamp=2016-10-01T02:44:44.834+0000)

they should still be incredibly hard to take down for them. hard enough that it is risky to duel them at any point in the game and should take so long that the tanks teammates can easily arrive in time.

and while tanks dont deal a large amount of damage themsleves, in many cases they should still be able to beat the assassin in a battle of attrition, at the very least forcing them to back off, because otherwise theyd die.

assassins usually have a mobility advantage and being able to pull out of the fight justifies them losing to a tank over an extended trade. the tank might technically be able to kill the assassin, but he doesnt have a lot of kill potential on him since it should be a slow process.

i don't think there is anything wrong with how it works now. you build damage, you do damage. you build pen, you do damage to tanks. saying a full build assassin should take so long to kill a tank a whole team can roam across half the map to help before he's dead is a ridiculous notion

Critmaster GarenOct 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

i don't think there is anything wrong with how it works now. you build damage, you do damage. you build pen, you do damage to tanks. saying a full build assassin should take so long to kill a tank a whole team can roam across half the map to help before he's dead is a ridiculous notion

why exactly? its supposed to be their strategic weakness for their 1v1 potential against squishy priority targets.

a well played assassin has the outplay potential to easily get picks on the map and by default forces a playstile of the enemy mage and adc to never be able to roam around on his own due to how they (at least should) automatically win those small skirmishes, which can easily win a team a game.

they have to have some weakness. "build damage to deal damage" is very narrow minded view.

bruisers, and especially juggernauts have high base damage without building a lot of damage for example so they can itemize heavy into defense, since they have other strategic weaknesses.

assassins are strategically very valuable, since their targets (mages, skirmishers, supports, marksmen) are incredibly valuable to a teamcomp. so they should not be able to 1v1 tanks and heavy fighters to offset that strength.

PermabannedGarenOct 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o0iOEEjN,comment-id=000900010000,timestamp=2016-10-01T02:44:44.834+0000)

they should still be incredibly hard to take down for them. hard enough that it is risky to duel them at any point in the game and should take so long that the tanks teammates can easily arrive in time.

and while tanks dont deal a large amount of damage themsleves, in many cases they should still be able to beat the assassin in a battle of attrition, at the very least forcing them to back off, because otherwise theyd die.

assassins usually have a mobility advantage and being able to pull out of the fight justifies them losing to a tank over an extended trade. the tank might technically be able to kill the assassin, but he doesnt have a lot of kill potential on him since it should be a slow process.

Why should a tank be able to duel someone who built full damage and quite likely lifesteal?

Assassins are generally only good for killing things. A tank's strength lies in their ability to soak up dangerous enemy abilities for their carries, their huge utility, and ability to zone the back line with the threat of their CC.

Tank damage falls off late game. A tank can not burst someone who built full damage down quickly late game, generally speaking. Why should they win a sustained duel against someone who built a shit ton of AD and can lifesteal damage done to them back?

Genocide VictimOct 1, 20162 votes

Assassin = skill, tank = no skill. That's all you need to know.

Teh SongOct 1, 20161 votes

Wow, the communities more single-sided then I expected. I anticipated at least a quarter of the responses being people going

"OMG I hate when Tanks survive my burst the whole point of me assassining is to burst ppl"

As far as why the assassins attacking the tank anyway, I'd imagine it's because everybody else is already dead. That's generally when I end up on either side of a Tank-Assassin fight.

PermabannedGarenOct 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o0iOEEjN,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-10-01T01:41:19.542+0000)

Wow, the communities more single-sided then I expected. I anticipated at least a quarter of the responses being people going

"OMG I hate when Tanks survive my burst the whole point of me assassining is to burst ppl"

This board is tank and mage biased.

Teh SongOct 1, 20161 votes

I like that some people are trying to be all educational, when I was just asking if people have those thoughts. Just curiosity really.

NineTailedMysticOct 1, 20161 votes

Assassins shouldn't be able to kill a Tank without serious time investment, and Tanks shouldn't be able to kill an Assassin quickly. Over time through base damages, a Tank should be able kill an Assassin without much danger,

DengedenOct 1, 20161 votes

If you play a tank to defeat people, you're doing it wrong.

If you play an assassin to burst any given 100% HP target, you're doing it wrong.

Kitty ClarissaOct 1, 20161 votes

well assassins who build item 3142 item 3156 item 3147 are easily countered by a single item 1031 negating the armor pen, mages have item 3191 which negates the armor pen too, But on to this discussion tanks depeending on who should not really be able to 1v1 assassins later game since most assassins build item 3026 . its mid game that it matters since they have armor and HP usually item 3742 item 3068 item 3025 is at leaast build mid game on tanks and with high base damage they can 1v1 assassins from tankyness + bases .. When the assassin gets item 3035 item 3071 thats when they are able to 1v1 tanks from having armor pen .

NotCounterOct 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=CPU Vert,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o0iOEEjN,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2016-10-01T09:58:12.907+0000)

well assassins who build are easily countered by a single negating the armor pen, mages have which negates the armor pen too, But on to this discussion tanks depeending on who should not really be able to 1v1 assassins later game since most assassins build . its mid game that it matters since they have armor and HP usually is at leaast build mid game on tanks and with high base damage they can 1v1 assassins from tankyness + bases .. When the assassin gets thats when they are able to 1v1 tanks from having armor pen .

OMG HOW DARE YOU SAY FLAT ARMOR PEN HAS A COUNTER!