"Warrior can't get buffed because champs like Lee Sin and Vi would abuse her."

Dr Poro·Sep 2, 2015·99 votes·5,374 views

That was the number 1 counter argument in discussions about whether or not Warrior should get buffed. However, Lee Sin and Vi have both received buffs recently.

#What the Fuck

Instead of buffing an underpowered item that keeps so many former junglers from being viable, they buff the ones that are nearly viable but have strong potential to become OP again if items go too much in their favour. Does this mean Riot will NEVER buff or rework Warrior into a better item?

100 Comments

BeoridasSep 2, 201515 votes

abuse ''her'' ???

KitsuneKrashSep 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

abuse ''her'' ???

Don't you know, jungle items & a man's car are always female

Vlad is PMSingSep 2, 201510 votes

Lol. When have lee and Vi ever been not viable.

Dr PoroSep 2, 20152 votes

Well, they're viable in a sense, but when there's about 10 god tier junglers, they kinda suppress the rest.

PennsSep 2, 20156 votes

Yeah, first cinderhulk, then devourer and runeglaive, lets make the fourth item broken as fuck too just like we did with the 4 new reworks, why not kek?

ZephyrDrakeSep 2, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, first cinderhulk, then devourer and runeglaive, lets make the fourth item broken as fuck too just like we did with the 4 new reworks, why not kek?

yeah so instead let's have an useless item that you should never pick unless you are extremely certain that you will be able to snowball the game since the item does not scale at all into the late game unlike the other 3 jungle items which do

PennsSep 2, 20151 votes

Runeglaive doesnt scale either and cinderhulk is kinda bad in this meta anyway, so yeah... If 1 item (warrior) is good, but not broken while the 3 other items are/ were broken, Riot should nerf those 3 instead of breaking everything lol. They shouldve just nerfed cinderhulk back in the tank meta instead of buffing everything else...

ZephyrDrakeSep 2, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Runeglaive doesnt scale either and cinderhulk is kinda bad in this meta anyway, so yeah... If 1 item (warrior) is good, but not broken while the 3 other items are/ were broken, Riot should nerf those 3 instead of breaking everything lol. They shouldve just nerfed cinderhulk back in the tank meta instead of buffing everything else...

Runeglaive doesn't scale?

UNIQUE - SPELLBLADE: After using an ability, your next basic attack deals 100% base AD + (30% AP) bonus magic damage. (1.5 second cooldown). When direclty attacking a monster, the bonus dmg is reapplied in an AoE around the target and also restores 8% of your missing mana. maybe try reading the item before saying this

And no, warrior is not good at all. The only way Warrior is good is if you manage to snowball the game with it's early stats if you don't then the item is worthless

PennsSep 2, 20151 votes

Its still shit late game. Might as well get lichbane which is way better. And if something is shit late game, it doesnt scale into it.. Runeglaive is a early game item lol.

Warrior is good, the thing is that devourer is broken so theres no real reason to play it unless you have the right team comp. Id rather see broken stuff nerfed than just good items made broken.

ZephyrDrakeSep 2, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Its still shit late game. Might as well get lichbane which is way better. And if something is shit late game, it doesnt scale into it.. Runeglaive is a early game item lol.

Warrior is good, the thing is that devourer is broken so theres no real reason to play it unless you have the right team comp. Id rather see broken stuff nerfed than just good items made broken.

warrior is not good, keep telling yourself that maybe it will become true one day and runeglaive scales way better than the useless piece of worthlessness that warrior is. But sure go ahead and nerf things into the worthless realm that warrior is right now

PennsSep 2, 20151 votes

Looks like youre that type of guy that just plays op stuff and calls everything else trash until it gets played lel.

ZephyrDrakeSep 2, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Looks like youre that type of guy that just plays op stuff and calls everything else trash until it gets played lel.

yeah, my Karma and Sona are such OP champions

PennsSep 2, 20152 votes

Ok so runeglaive, the early game control jungler item that is basically rendered useless and outclassed late game scales well because it has 30% AP scaling while the AD version of runeglaive (strong early, falls off late) is useless. I guess I was wrong :/ Lets just give the 1400 gold cost item as much AD as a BF sword and 20% CDR or some new OP mechanic even, instead of just nerfing other items to make it playable again, right?

ZephyrDrakeSep 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Ok so runeglaive, the early game control jungler item that is basically rendered useless and outclassed late game scales well because it has 30% AP scaling while the AD version of runeglaive (strong early, falls off late) is useless. I guess I was wrong :/ Lets just give the 1400 gold cost item as much AD as a BF sword and 20% CDR or some new OP mechanic even, instead of just nerfing other items to make it playable again, right?

how is warrior an AD version of runeglaive? other than both being jungle items they aren't anywhere near close to being the same thing

Jungle Lux GodSep 4, 20151 votes

If Runeglaive is bad late game then I don't want to know how bad Warrior is in the late game. Warrior is easily the worst jungle enchant in the late game BY FAR.

PennsSep 4, 20151 votes

I never said anything against that did I? This community is just so close minded to "buff this, buff that" if something isnt that viable in the meta... Look at what happened to Darius or Gnar for example. Are you gonna be happy if Riot reworks warrior and it dominates every game with some new mechanic? I dont have anything against a normal buff to its stats, but Im afraid of a rework.

Jungle Lux GodSep 4, 20151 votes

It actually is well known that Runeglaive doesn't scale well into the late game, and has been that way since its release.

The base AD ratio doesn't do anything outside of giving it base stats, while the AP ratio is garbage when the closest option has a 20% higher AP ratio. I know that Runeglaive scales, but it's not good scaling.

Dr PoroSep 2, 201530 votes

They screwed up more than 3 reworks. That's not a reason to never rework anything ever again.

Vlad is PMSingSep 2, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nwJy30Qj,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-09-02T14:47:10.939+0000)

They screwed up more than 3 reworks. That's not a reason to never rework anything ever again.

What reworks? Sion rework is godly so I hope you aren't talking about that.

SerevasSep 2, 201522 votes

Screwed up meaning they failed balance for a long time. Sion was god top lane for a long time after his rework, the 6 reworks that just came out ( Gangplank Fiora Garen Skarner Darius Mordekaiser ), all became instantaneously ban worthy champions.

Daedalus871Sep 2, 20157 votes

Is that because there is something inherently wrong with their kits, or is it because their numbers are too strong?

AnidanSep 2, 201524 votes

Yarr, the numbers be too strong, matey!

The only real offender I can see in (new) kit design would be Morde. Morde just has a really, really awkward position right now.

GP can be tuned down well and be relevant, Fiora could be tuned down and remain relevant, Garen could be tuned down and remain relevant, Skarner could probably as well, Darius could be tuned down and remain relevant. But Morde, on the other hand, loses relevance the lower his numbers get, and not just because high numbers make anyone at all relevant. He doesn't bring anything at all besides damage. GP can bring the poke, and some teamfight presence. Fiora can provide safety and teamfight presence, as well as a baseline for her damage with the true damage aspect of her kit. Garen brings a beefy frontliner, a nice silence, and respectable damage. Darius provides a meatwall with spikes, to Garen's shielded wall, and Skarner provides great CC.

Morde has nothing but high numbers and questionable kit design on his side right now.

Blue Moon WolfSep 2, 20151 votes

and a one map dragon gimmick, he's also got that on his side... on SR anyway .__.

I Main SwainSep 2, 20151 votes

and the ability to hit lvl 6 in bot lane while the enemy laners are still lvl 3-4

Blue Moon WolfSep 3, 20152 votes

also map specific oddly enough. your bonus xp on aram will stay at 0, which leads me to believe that everyone already gets full xp from minion kills, rendering his W passive useless there.

Silents429Sep 2, 20152 votes

You are trying really hard if you want to say 6 reworks all failed. Yeah some need minor number tweaks but overall the reworks were successful.

Fucking Gangplank is finally getting picked, and has a fun kit now.

Fiora is a bit overwhelming but not full of bs mechanics anymore.

Garen now has a late game purpose.

Skarner, I don't play him.

Darius is undertuned at the moment but his rework was a success and allows him to be buffed in the future unlike before.

Mordekaiser is debatable, and needs more tweaks.

It's hard to say any of these failed, they just fucking came out, even Sion wasn't perfect on launch.

SerevasSep 3, 20151 votes

Literally every reworked champion hit the ban list instantaneously because t hey're massively overtuned, I don't think the reworks failed overall, I said they failed in terms of balance.

Darius actually isn't underwhelming, he takes a little practice and goes full insanity. His initial launch made him a touch weak, but a hotfix of damage on his Q and a buff to the heal of missing HP, made him crazy strong.

Skarner is so overwhelmingly dominant in the jungle he saw a 65% win rate upon release, and even after hot fixes he remains around the 65% win rate mark.

GP and Fiora become overwhelming after their first items, and even before if they're played at a very high level. I love his kit, he's so much fun to play, but as soon as he gets his first item he can be completely unstoppable from that point on if played properly. Fiora just goes ham with that true damage after a small window of weakness in the early game against lane bullies.

I overall like the Garen rework, so I probably shouldn't have included that as a "failed" rework, I think he's probably pretty balanced for the most part.

Finally Mordekaiser is very lane dominant with the proper support, frequently kills in lane without jungle assistance, his Q can 1shot on it's own, and having dragon's ghost cheese the crap out of lanes and take towers is nuts. I personally like making it gank bot lane through their tri brush, it's hilarious to see the reactions when a dragon comes out of their tribrush instead of a jungler. His damage numbers are way too high, he's basically a free win in most cases as long as the team plays around him properly.

Almost all of the champions above win lane, unless against one another, their numbers are a bit over the top in how they play out, and will likely take several more patches to even attempt to balance.

OyddAWqJ5rSep 3, 20151 votes

Being broken and being unbalanced are entirely different in that a rework is not broken if it conveys a healthy kit with overtuned numbers; it's just unbalanced. And that is pretty much every recent rework. They did good, but it's hard to find the right balance point for a champion through internal and pbe testing alone. Ultimately, we the live team are the ones who are the final "beta testers".

Now if a kit is broken that means it has unhealthy game interactions that can't be fixed through number tuning. They haven't released any of these recently.

SerevasSep 4, 20151 votes

I don't believe I said anywhere that they were broken.

OyddAWqJ5rSep 5, 20151 votes

Nor did I say you did. I was moreso repeating what you said. That they have healthy gameplay but obscure numbers.

SerevasSep 5, 20151 votes

Oh I got'cha

Fear PopoSep 3, 20151 votes

Darius became instantly ban worthy? kek.

SerevasSep 3, 20151 votes

Okay fine, instantly after his hotfix

Dar RaksadaSep 2, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vlad is PMSing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nwJy30Qj,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-09-02T14:49:47.985+0000)

What reworks? Sion rework is godly so I hope you aren't talking about that.

Cassiopeia Twitch Karma Mordekaiser

JasiwelSep 2, 20153 votes

Twitch's rework was fine, but the subsequent nerfs were really out of place and generally uncalled for. Once Kalista was released, it made Twitch even less relevant, but his rework was a success given it was a few QoL changes and a VU.

Karma's rework was and always will be up for debate, whether or not it was successful. In many ways it was successful, but it wasn't true to her origins and not what fans/players wanted. One could say the same for Cass too...but only in regards to statistics and she was by far the most disappointing rework to date.

Cass and Morde are good examples regardless.

Dar RaksadaSep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Twitch's rework was fine, but the subsequent nerfs were really out of place and generally uncalled for. Once Kalista was released, it made Twitch even less relevant, but his rework was a success given it was a few QoL changes and a VU.

Karma's rework was and always will be up for debate, whether or not it was successful. In many ways it was successful, but it wasn't true to her origins and not what fans/players wanted. One could say the same for Cass too...but only in regards to statistics and she was by far the most disappointing rework to date.

Cass and Morde are good examples regardless.

I mean twitch's rework back in S1 (or was it S2?) not the VU. The rework changed him from a jungler/extreme hypercarry to a botlane lategame carry. A bit like morde in that he was forced out of his habitat into botlane.

Karma's rework is up for debate in the same way morde's rework is.

A Miss FortuneSep 2, 20151 votes

How are Cinderhulk and Runeglaive even close to broken?

Cinderhulk is in a decent spot. They trade offensive stats for defensive stats.

Runeglaive is garbage. It's basically a Fiendish Codex. The mana regen isn't that noticeable and it doesn't work on most AP Junglers. Even then the passive sucks since items like Lich Bane are the same passive, and It's pretty sad that the AP Support item has the same offensive stats as Runeglaive.

PennsSep 2, 20152 votes

I never said they are right now. But both items were the best out there when they got reworked (tank meta, elise, every other runeglaive jungler,...)

A Miss FortuneSep 2, 20151 votes

Runeglaive was still bad when it was released and only worked on a few Junglers. I think Mid laners took it more than Junglers. Now nobody takes it. Even Fiddlesticks players just buy Cinderhulk or nothing at all.

PennsSep 2, 20152 votes

Runeglaive dominated the jungle for quite a while, especially on champs like Elise/ Eve/... Pretty much everything that can build runeglaive was really good, did you miss that lol?

Starcall CaseySep 2, 20156 votes

Why would they buff warrior? Grim patron and control warrior are so strong already. :^)

Voluug13Sep 3, 20155 votes

Lets see, aside from Lee and Vi, the junglers that need Warrior to be viable are:

Khazix Pantheon RekSai Rengar MonkeyKing JarvanIV

All who are either completly good and ''viable'' (read: in a good place), ''weak'' (read: not utterly dominant) because of the meta, or no one wants to see as a ''viable'' (read: dominant) jungler again.

The Warrior enchantment may be weak, but its users are amongs the most divisive, opressive and generalist junglers in the game. When Kha was strong, only Lee could keep him in check. The game was at its worst when Vi/Lee/J4/Kha were the only jungle options. Lets not go back to those dark ages.

Dr PoroSep 3, 20151 votes

There is still space between good and garbage. An item being bad doesn't mean "we have to add 15 AD and 10% lifesteal!" Small changes like +5AD can have a great influence while not shaking the meta completely. I don't want to see Warrior junglers in the number 1 spot again, but do you really think a small buff like +5 AD would cause this? While the other jungle items are so damn strong? Half of the junglers who have Warrior as suggested item don't even buy this item anymore and go for devourer or cinderhulk instead.

JammieboiSep 2, 20153 votes

Riot Consistency

Pick one

Just Let Me IntSep 3, 20153 votes

Warrior Just got buffed on the PBE By adding 5 more ad. http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/09/93-pbe-update.html

EgillionSep 4, 20151 votes

This buff is absurd... AD assassin junglers are toxic and they can already snowball very hard.

Enjoy getting 2shot in 5.18 by a LeeSin or Rengar Khazix people will die faster than ever.

And I am not even satisfyed with their nerf on Devourer. I mean the retarded part of item 3930 is the phantom strike that makes champions revolve entirely around this passive in order to be viable. Think about it : XinZhao Shyvana Kayle wouldn't even be viable without this phantom strike passive.

In 5.18, a sated devourer that you have to work 15 minutes on, is almost less effective than a item 3091 ?!?

And it's not like we see a lot of devourer junglers in the competitive scene right now. The only junglers that are viable in competitive play are cynder hulk, warrior, rune glaive champions only.

In 5.18 any AD jungler that can equip Warrior will basically become Freeelo : just build the right items and you become a god with retarded dmg, inevitable ganks and absurd tankyness with high dueling potential item 3707 item 3742 item 3111 item 3748 GG

King HughesSep 2, 20152 votes

Buff it, the plus 5 ad would put it on par with Cinderhulk imo, Devour is above them both but i think the jungle would be much more balance with the warrior buff. I think rune glave could use a TINNY buff also.

P.S. Pls forgive spelling errors. Its not my strong suite.

CoolKnightSTSep 2, 20151 votes

Their where working on a new version of wariors on the pbe some time ago that dealed a true damage dot or something. They als had plans to remove item 3134 from the build path. I have a feeling they want to remove .

I also believe their was a discussion to include item 3044 in the buildpath because you generaly aren't going for a phage item in a jungler build.

Hayaishi2Sep 3, 20151 votes

But if YI starts hard carrying at min 20 because he cleaned up a couple of kills people are somehow fine with it, despite Yi being 10 times more oppressive than Lee Sin/Vi when he's ahead.

Voluug13Sep 3, 20152 votes

Yi isnt an issue in this meta because tanks bringing CC.

Lee and VI are always oppresive when they are strong.

And if Yi gets fed because of ganks, that only means you as laners suck and should ward better. Yi brings nothing to a gank but damage.