Could Taliyahs W work more like Viktor E and Rumble R?

DiveAlive·May 24, 2016·30 votes·1,223 views

That way smartcast can be used to click-n-drag to directionally Knock-up, and if I just want a stationary knock-up I would be able to do it with 1 click, rather than clunky double taps.

43 Comments

Lady HammerlockMay 25, 20163 votes

People keep mentioning this while ignoring the fact that ZenonStoic has mentioned she will never have her W on vector cast

UltîmaMay 25, 20169 votes

No offense to Zenon, since I think she did fantastic work on Taliyah, but I feel as though outright refusal to consider VT is indicative of a bias against vector targeting rather than an objective stance against the mechanic. There are a lot of good arguments for vector targeting on that skill coming from the playerbase, and so far very few advocates of the double-tap mechanic besides Zenon herself.

GaleWinUnleashedMay 25, 20162 votes

Honestly I have no problem with the double-tap. Only issue I have is being unable to queue anything else until W finishes casting.

UltîmaMay 25, 20168 votes

If you're used to smartcasting vector-targeting abilities Taliyah's W honestly feels like the chunkiest ability in the game bar none.

MiraweaveMay 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

If you're used to smartcasting vector-targeting abilities Taliyah's W honestly feels like the chunkiest ability in the game bar none.

She seems like a really cool champion, but as a Viktor main I know there's no way she'll ever not feel bad to play.

GaleWinUnleashedMay 25, 20161 votes

Switching it to the exact same vector-cast as Viktor/Rumble now would just make it slightly slower (by the amount of time you take to press and release the key). A slight alteration, such as making mouse-up perform the same function as the current second press after mouse-down starts the cast, could fix that part.

UltîmaMay 25, 20162 votes

I like that idea in theory, but moving the mouse after cast could impede with other desired inputs, especially champion movement.

Switching to vector targeting would make the ability faster and more intuitive to use, if anything;

•Taliyah W Smart Casting: WDown -> WUp -> Select Direction -> WDown -> WUp •Other Vector Targeted Abilities Smart Casting: keyDown -> Select Direction -> keyUp

GaleWinUnleashedMay 25, 20161 votes

I think the only difference between my proposal and current vector-cast is that key-down represents full commitment to the spell-cast in exchange for saving the fraction of a second it would take to pick a direction and release the key.

Current vector-cast is inherently (very slightly) slower than the double-tap because nothing happens until you finish releasing the key after selecting a direction. Seismic Shove takes away the feeling of being rushed by allowing you to input a direction after the ability has already started.

UltîmaMay 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I think the only difference between my proposal and current vector-cast is that key-down represents full commitment to the spell-cast in exchange for saving the fraction of a second it would take to pick a direction and release the key.

Current vector-cast is inherently (very slightly) slower than the double-tap because nothing happens until you finish releasing the key after selecting a direction. Seismic Shove takes away the feeling of being rushed by allowing you to input a direction after the ability has already started.

You've got it backwards, more input means it is invariably slower to cast in every scenario. Viktor's E and Rumble's ult have always been extremely impactful - and used reactively - with the cast happening at the end of the input (button up) at the highest level of play.

GaleWinUnleashedMay 25, 20161 votes

But Taliyah is essentially locked out of other spell-casts during W's animation by design, so is the input method really slowing her down?

UltîmaMay 25, 20164 votes

Yes and no. If the balance team ever want to touch the abilities' timing, lockout, etc. The double input will get very problematic.

At the moment it's simply different for the sake of being different instead of using an established and widely accepted/appreciated casting method, which is also problematic. Setting a weird precedent for arbitrarily different inputs for mechanically similar skills dilutes the game's design consistency, burden of knowledge and accessibility.

So at the current moment, no it is not a problem for Taliyah, but it will almost assuredly become a problem if W is ever touched from a mechanical point of view (and surprise surprise, the lockout component of that skill is what's causing a lot of trouble to players at the moment.)

GaleWinUnleashedMay 26, 20161 votes

Left a comment lower down in response to someone else (speaking against the current cast method as inefficient, by the way) that also serves as a partial response to this comment. Specifically the bit about how I don't believe enabling a W-->E combo is a good idea as far as skill and outplay is concerned.

Pierce The VealMay 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Left a comment lower down in response to someone else (speaking against the current cast method as inefficient, by the way) that also serves as a partial response to this comment. Specifically the bit about how I don't believe enabling a W-->E combo is a good idea as far as skill and outplay is concerned.

I still don't understand why people's definition of "outplay" is "this champion can't make plays, and can therefore be outplayed."

pickleriqueMay 26, 20161 votes

I want to main Taliyah for her role and lore, but this W issue needs to be fixed. It is rather unacceptable from a coding/game play perspective that W locks you out of casting spells; E for example. The combo isn't possible if you have to cast E first because then any decent player will back off. In order for the combo to really really be an outplay is if you can W then E while W is still casting. This would be much smoother overall with Vector Targeting (VT).

GaleWinUnleashedMay 26, 20161 votes

That's not an outplay. That's a conditional combo. If you cast W and see that it will probably hit, then cast E on top of it for more damage. Imagine if Singed could place his Mega Adhesive while Flinging a target at that spot to root them; it'd be bullshit. The skill and outplay is only there because of the preparation and positioning that has to go into it.

It's not the lockout that I have any problem with. It's the fact that inputting any other skill while W is casting does absolutely nothing. It needs to queue up the next spell-cast to make her feel smoother.

pickleriqueMay 26, 20161 votes

Yasuo, Annie, Malph, Leblanc, Azir, Zed, and many other champs are able to combo certain things that doesn't allow for single reactionary outplays. Example: Yasuo ults you and can e and q simultaneously while you are knocked up my a nado (only a qss+flash). They made Taliyah a control mage with utility focused qualities (ie a worse version of of Azir).

I do agree, at the very least, remove the lockout.

QuephaMay 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No offense to Zenon, since I think she did fantastic work on Taliyah, but I feel as though outright refusal to consider VT is indicative of a bias against vector targeting rather than an objective stance against the mechanic. There are a lot of good arguments for vector targeting on that skill coming from the playerbase, and so far very few advocates of the double-tap mechanic besides Zenon herself.

Zenon did consider it, they all considered it quite a bit including analysis of statistics and playtests before deciding against it. Go read Zenon's reasoning first before you start claiming bias was the only reason they went with double tap over the vector.

UltîmaMay 25, 20164 votes

I did, and countered every. single. point. of their wall of text. If my personal post doesn't satisfy you, which I believe you can view from my user profile, feel free to read this reddit thread as well, which goes into more detail about why Zenon's arguments are rife with bias and not actually based in tangible data. More to the point, did you read Zenon's post? The data presented did not actually mean anything - it measured the player base/churn of Viktor and Rumble against Ahri and Yasuo... two of league's most popular and consistently powerful champions! If that's not an obviously biased metric then idk what to say. Zenon's three closing points are also not substantiated by any measure of truth.

QuephaMay 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I did, and countered every. single. point. of their wall of text. If my personal post doesn't satisfy you, which I believe you can view from my user profile, feel free to read this reddit thread as well, which goes into more detail about why Zenon's arguments are rife with bias and not actually based in tangible data. More to the point, did you read Zenon's post? Their three closing points are not substantiated by any measure of truth.

No, you didn't, neither does that reddit thread.

UltîmaMay 25, 20163 votes

Feel free to defend Zenon's points then, unless you really believe ''I don't like vector targeting'' to be a valid and unbiased stance for a game designer.

QuephaMay 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Feel free to defend Zenon's points then, unless you really believe ''I don't like vector targeting'' to be a valid and unbiased stance for a game designer.

You haven't even attacked their points yet. What about the delay from aiming the vector? what about the massive player falloff on both viktor and rumble, the only two champions with vector spellcasts? what about their massive skill curve when every other part of their kits is incredibly simple?

You keep saying that the choice was made only due to personal preference, but saying something over and over again doesn't actually make it true.

Vistha KaiMay 25, 20162 votes

What delay? You press one button and make one short sweep with your mouse at the same time.

Meanwhile it's press the button once, move your mouse, press the button again. With smartcast on.

QuephaMay 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nk980KoN,comment-id=00000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-25T19:28:08.096+0000)

What delay? You press one button and make one short sweep with your mouse at the same time.

Meanwhile it's press the button once, move your mouse, press the button again. With smartcast on.

Vector casting requires you to press button, select direction, and then release the button to start the cast

Taliyah requires you to press the button to start the cast

There is a time difference there and that time difference decreases as your skill level increases. It has to be balanced around the minimum time difference of very experienced players, meaning that very inexperienced players suffer dramatically because they will be casting their vectors either more slowly or less accurately in the heat of battle.

GaleWinUnleashedMay 26, 20161 votes

Yes, the ability starts to cast faster, eliminating the possible discrepancy between players that arises from the different amounts of time players take to then drag the mouse and release the key.

The problem here is how many total actions are required to perform the ability.

Key down (spellcast begins)
Key up
Move mouse
Key down
Key up (direction locked in)

Other vectored abilities do this:

Key down
Move mouse
Key up (direction locked in, spellcast begins)

There is no reason Taliyah's W cannot have two of those five actions removed for smartcast. W can be changed to work like this:

Key down (spellcast begins)
Move mouse
Key up (direction locked in)

If the fact that smartcasters would be unable to view the spell range by pressing the skill key is too much of a price to pay for this (keep in mind Karthus Q already works this way), then it could instead be made identical to current vector-cast abilities at the cost of the instant cast start.

QuephaMay 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There is no reason Taliyah's W cannot have two of those five actions removed for smartcast. W can be changed to work like this:

Key down (spellcast begins)

Move mouse

Key up (direction locked in)

If the fact that smartcasters would be unable to view the spell range by pressing the skill key is too much of a price to pay for this (keep in mind Karthus Q already works this way already), then it could instead be made identical to current vector-cast abilities at the cost of the instant cast start.

I think the issue with that paradigm is more about unintentionally applying a direction to your W when you simply want a knockup. Players who want to simply knock up an enemy and then go to move their camera may find that their enemies are flying around in unexpected directions and they don't realize why. Kinda similar to an issue players had with Poppy where after charging they would want to Q the enemy and fire it in the polar opposite direction and things were moving so fast that they didn't even realize it was because Poppy charged past their cursor.

The cost of performing a second key press within the possible window is pretty minor. Vel'koz, Anivia, and Aurelion Sol have detonating spells that require a second key press that players can still adapt to really quickly (Aurelion Sol players actually complain that they can't detonate the spell fast enough due to an intended minimum delay to accentuate his weakness to enemies that close in on him)

UltîmaMay 25, 20162 votes

What about the delay from aiming the vector?

More input means it is invariably slower to cast in every scenario. Viktor's E and Rumble's ult have always been extremely impactful - and used reactively - with the cast happening at the end of the input (button up) at the highest level of play. Switching to vector targeting would make the ability faster and more intuitive to use, if anything; •Taliyah W Smart Casting: WDown -> WUp -> Select Direction -> WDown -> WUp •Other Vector Targeted Abilities Smart Casting: keyDown -> Select Direction -> keyUp

What about the massive player falloff on both viktor and rumble, the only two champions with vector spellcasts?

Rumble and Viktor are not popular right now for the same reasons a lot of other characters in their respective roles are also not popular - they do not fit the current meta or are simply underpowered/less consistent than other picks. Considering Viktor's recent change that hit his consistency considerably, I do not think that popularity or a leaning curve or player churn comparison with Yasuo and Ahri - who are both meta and two of League’s most popular champions - is an accurate measure of the complexity or aversion of players to vector targeting. If mechanical complexity were a real issue, then Azir, Gangplank, and other micro-managing-intensive champions would have considerably less presence than they do. There is absolutely no way this data indicates anything relating to vector targeting, period.

What about their massive skill curve when every other part of their kits is incredibly simple?

Refer to my point above. Azir and Gangplank are more complex and have more competitive presence because they do not have as many matchup/consistency issues as either Rumble or Viktor. Also hyperbole much? Massive skill curve? One ONE skill. Calm down.

You keep saying that the choice was made only due to personal preference, but saying something over and over again doesn't actually make it true.

No, but in this case I’m defending my stance that Zenon is strongly opinionated against Vector Targeting and that they used misleading data to draw a non-existent correlation between a game mechanic and player aversion. It’s called confirmation bias.

QuephaMay 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Switching to vector targeting would make the ability faster and more intuitive to use, if anything

You are objectively incorrect. The cast starts at key-down. that will always be faster than keyup. The point of this new cast paradigm is to narrow the gap between high level play and low level play because Taliyah already has a ton of weird stuff in her kit to make good Taliyah players better at Taliyah than bad Taliyah players.

Rumble and Viktor are not popular right now

Popularity has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation (although Viktor actually IS quite popular in high level play). Player falloff means how many players start playing the champion and then stop. Zenon showed statistics that show a huge number of players start playing Viktor and Rumble and stop after about 4 games, indicating that something in their kit turns a lot of players off. And if you talk to a lot of players that gave up on those champions you will often hear complaints about their experiences learning how to use the vector cast abilities.

Refer to my point above. Azir and Gangplank are more complex and have more competitive presence because they do not have as many matchup/consistency issues as either Rumble or Viktor. Also hyperbole much? Massive skill curve? One ONE skill. Calm down.

No hyperbole at all. Viktor sees a 6-8% increase in winrate as player experience increases. Rumble sees a 10+% increase in winrate as player experience increases. This is a public, objective statistic showing both those champions have huge skill curves. The idea that this is largely due to the vector cast is merely inferred due to it being on iconic and important parts of each chamion's kit, and most of the rest of both kits appearing to be quite simple and very similar to many other abilities on many other champions in the game who often don't have this dramatic trend.

UltîmaMay 25, 20162 votes

Sorry, I can't have a discussion with someone who decides to pick at a single sentence out of paragraph, out of context, to make a point while ignoring the rest of the content which explains exactly why their rebuttal is flawed.

SkiasMay 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

More input means it is invariably slower to cast in every scenario. Viktor's E and Rumble's ult have always been extremely impactful - and used reactively - with the cast happening at the end of the input (button up) at the highest level of play. Switching to vector targeting would make the ability faster and more intuitive to use, if anything; •Taliyah W Smart Casting: WDown -> WUp -> Select Direction -> WDown -> WUp •Other Vector Targeted Abilities Smart Casting: keyDown -> Select Direction -> keyUp

Rumble and Viktor are not popular right now for the same reasons a lot of other characters in their respective roles are also not popular - they do not fit the current meta or are simply underpowered/less consistent than other picks. Considering Viktor's recent change that hit his consistency considerably, I do not think that popularity or a leaning curve or player churn comparison with Yasuo and Ahri - who are both meta and two of League’s most popular champions - is an accurate measure of the complexity or aversion of players to vector targeting. If mechanical complexity were a real issue, then Azir, Gangplank, and other micro-managing-intensive champions would have considerably less presence than they do. There is absolutely no way this data indicates anything relating to vector targeting, period.

Refer to my point above. Azir and Gangplank are more complex and have more competitive presence because they do not have as many matchup/consistency issues as either Rumble or Viktor. Also hyperbole much? Massive skill curve? One ONE skill. Calm down.

No, but in this case I’m defending my stance that Zenon is strongly opinionated against Vector Targeting and that they used misleading data to draw a non-existent correlation between a game mechanic and player aversion. It’s called confirmation bias.

Rumble isnt played right now because his itemization is complete garbage.

UltîmaMay 26, 20161 votes

Exactly. There are way, way more factors to account for a character's popularity and player churn than the fact they use vector targeting in one of their skills. Off the top of my head;

a.) Rumble doesn't fulfill an awesome fantasy. ''Hamster in a mech suit'' is a tough sell. b.) Rumble gets super bullied in top lane by other popular picks right now. c.) Mage itemization isn't great at the moment. d.) His heat mechanic isn't the most approachable to new players either.

Zenon's data that points out ''Hey look, players aren't sticking with this character'' could be for any of the reasons above.

SkiasMay 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Exactly. There are way, way more factors to account for a character's popularity and player churn than the fact they use vector targeting in one of their skills. Off the top of my head;

a.) Rumble doesn't fulfill an awesome fantasy. ''Hamster in a mech suit'' is a tough sell. b.) Rumble gets super bullied in top lane by other popular picks right now. c.) Mage itemization isn't great at the moment. d.) His heat mechanic isn't the most approachable to new players either.

Zenon's data that points out ''Hey look, players aren't sticking with this character'' could be for any of the reasons above.

I love Rumble as a character. He's an unappreciated underdog and a runt. But he's all courageous and heroic. He's the underdog. I've played Rumble through the watering down of his ult, the weird changes to his harpoons. His items have gotten worse and worse.

The recent item changes have favored mana users but Kennen and Rumble got left out. They need AP bruiser items and to be honest Liandries is so niche it makes a poor core item.

He needs item improvements. Badly. A new item or two just for manaless ap bruisers. Not asking for hybrid tanks stats. Protobelt is the only item they really got out of this, and its ok.

The other option is improvements to his kit. Make his ult more sticky or give it back the impact damage.

I had made a post about an idea I had below:

Rumble has been in such poor shape for what feels like a very long time. He was given a small buff in the form of wave clear, which, does help him CS but also puts him into considerable risk. His itemization paths feel terrible and I've noticed he doesn't really have a power spike that is noticeable.

I think the discussion needs to be had of what he is supposed to be and reallocate his power in his kit. He feels like he's half in and half out on this Mage/Bruiser thing to where he doesn't do either effectively. When you look at his AD equivalent in Renekton, he does a fantastic job of this. He has conditional sustain in his kit and a small amount of CC. He deals damage and has access to lifesteal options (Rumble's itemization problems again here.)

I'd like to see him get some source of sustain now that even spell vamp is lost to him, not that it was ever great to begin with, or an increase to his damage. Rumble takes huge risks each time he has to trade and with his clear being faster, his bullying tactics just end up being counter intuitive.

I'd suggest maybe linking some sort of health return to his Overheat, or perhaps an additional effect of some sort in his passive.

Rumble is a mechanic right? Perhaps occasionally he could have a window to perform a maintenance on Tristy. Something like...

After Overheat wears off, Rumble gets a Maintenance mode. After Maintenance mode wears off he gets a Regen. So for the sake of example he has 3 "charges" on him. Each time he's struck after that by an opponent, the Regen gets weaker as he loses charges. At the end of maintenance mode he gets a recovery based on his remaining charges.

This supports his play style of hit and run damage over time bullying.

I also think Rumble should be fully classified as our AP Juggernaut. He should be balanced around the likes of his peers such as .

What do you think?

Lady HammerlockMay 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No offense to Zenon, since I think she did fantastic work on Taliyah, but I feel as though outright refusal to consider VT is indicative of a bias against vector targeting rather than an objective stance against the mechanic. There are a lot of good arguments for vector targeting on that skill coming from the playerbase, and so far very few advocates of the double-tap mechanic besides Zenon herself.

Its because overall it'll just become this one way use ability

with vector cast you'll always KNOCK BACK the target but it will never KNOCK UP because of the way you cast it

Say your in a Scenario where your low as Taliyah and someone is chasing you but your team mates are coming in hot on that "someone" you don't want to knock him away,so he gets killed,you don't want to knock him sideways because again you want him dead you don't want to knock him your way because you don't want to die

but in taliyah's case she can just not cast it twice and it become a classic knock up,the way vector cast is programmed that would be impossible

the QOL buff she needs?she needs to be allowed to cast other spells while W is there,the fact that you can't cast anything else makes it feel occasionally clunky

SkiasMay 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Its because overall it'll just become this one way use ability

with vector cast you'll always KNOCK BACK the target but it will never KNOCK UP because of the way you cast it

Say your in a Scenario where your low as Taliyah and someone is chasing you but your team mates are coming in hot on that "someone" you don't want to knock him away,so he gets killed,you don't want to knock him sideways because again you want him dead you don't want to knock him your way because you don't want to die

but in taliyah's case she can just not cast it twice and it become a classic knock up,the way vector cast is programmed that would be impossible

the QOL buff she needs?she needs to be allowed to cast other spells while W is there,the fact that you can't cast anything else makes it feel occasionally clunky

With vector targetting you would click and immediately let go and it would always pop up, because the cursor didnt have time to move. What you suggest would never happen unless you held the click.

John 13 34May 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

People keep mentioning this...

This should speak volumes about whether the design decision was a good one.

...while ignoring the fact that ZenonStoic has mentioned she will never have her W on vector cast

"Never" in Riot-speak can often be as short as a minor patch.

John 13 34May 25, 20163 votes

This, +100000000000000000

The incoming buffs will be nice, but her W is still the most awkward ability in the game. Given the amount of independent comments asking why it's not more like Viktor or Rumble's abilities I think Riot really missed the mark with this champ.

SOLOQSUPERHEROMay 25, 20162 votes

Play Nami and Velkoz and practice their q/e. It's not that that hard to hit when you get the hang of it. They operate on the same kind of physics

TheGreatSultanMay 25, 20161 votes

I just got Taliyah last night and have been trying to get her game ready and I had the exact same thought. I love the design of the Character, I love how her CC works, how placement matters a lot for her, but her W casting, I feel, is not consistent with the Character or the spell itself. Seismic shove is a small radius knock up that can be used in both an offensive and defensive manner, though the manner of casting with double click makes it clumsy to use in either of these roles. It's range is rather short (which is okay, this is where Taliyah is supposed to shine), the problem with the double click is that I can't input a move command while using it. While her other attacks allow me to move and kite at the same time, seismic shove makes me a sitting duck for skill shots, and because I am already rather close to the enemy, they're going to most likely hit. This is especially true in team fights, were I need to knock up the right person away or towards my team in a split second. I understand that there's some problems with Vector targeting, but this could be easily resolved by having the ability itself begin to cast as soon as you hold down the mouse button, while the directional knock up would cast once you release the mouse. In this manner, seismic shove would be consistent, fast, reliable, truer to established game mechanics, and truer to Taliyah's smart placement and fast acting CC.

SkiasMay 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I just got Taliyah last night and have been trying to get her game ready and I had the exact same thought. I love the design of the Character, I love how her CC works, how placement matters a lot for her, but her W casting, I feel, is not consistent with the Character or the spell itself. Seismic shove is a small radius knock up that can be used in both an offensive and defensive manner, though the manner of casting with double click makes it clumsy to use in either of these roles. It's range is rather short (which is okay, this is where Taliyah is supposed to shine), the problem with the double click is that I can't input a move command while using it. While her other attacks allow me to move and kite at the same time, seismic shove makes me a sitting duck for skill shots, and because I am already rather close to the enemy, they're going to most likely hit. This is especially true in team fights, were I need to knock up the right person away or towards my team in a split second. I understand that there's some problems with Vector targeting, but this could be easily resolved by having the ability itself begin to cast as soon as you hold down the mouse button, while the directional knock up would cast once you release the mouse. In this manner, seismic shove would be consistent, fast, reliable, truer to established game mechanics, and truer to Taliyah's smart placement and fast acting CC.

Yeah, its easily the most inconsistent spell in the game. Im an Anivia main and consider landing a Q on a full speed running Udyr or a dashing Ekko easier than using that W on a karthus.

The targetting paradigm for it so bad. It doesnt feel good to use.

Covert Ops GnarMay 26, 20161 votes

You cant have this because when you cast her W, you can not choose a direction and it knocks them straight up. Also, I personally like the way her W works after I got used to it. For 2-3 games I thought vector cast would be great but then I got gud. What I want to happen is be able to cast my abilities while still casting my W. I'll press E and Q while casting my W, thinking they casted, then realizing "Oh shit now I'm dead"

the Anarchit3chtMay 26, 20161 votes

They specifically don't allow it. Imagine if you could cast your E while you W, it'd essentially be a guaranteed shove into your mine field and that'd be op. I forget who it was, I want to say Meddler or Zenon, spoke about the context of the casting type of the ability.

QuephaMay 26, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=the Anarchit3cht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nk980KoN,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-05-26T05:59:28.817+0000)

They specifically don't allow it. Imagine if you could cast your E while you W, it'd essentially be a guaranteed shove into your mine field and that'd be op. I forget who it was, I want to say Meddler or Zenon, spoke about the context of the casting type of the ability.

It's not necessarily OP since the numbers can just be rebalanced, but certainly more boring since those numbers have to be balanced around the combo dealing less damage due to its reliability. The player doesn't have to make a decision to ante up extra mana for damage because they can just wait to see if their ability is going to land before applying the extra damage. It also pretty much eliminates using E as a zoning tool because you're almost always better off just saving the cooldown until the next time you land a W for guaranteed bonus damage.

SkiasMay 26, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=the Anarchit3cht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nk980KoN,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-05-26T05:59:28.817+0000)

They specifically don't allow it. Imagine if you could cast your E while you W, it'd essentially be a guaranteed shove into your mine field and that'd be op. I forget who it was, I want to say Meddler or Zenon, spoke about the context of the casting type of the ability.

Casting w has a lockout. You could have vector targetting and keep the lockout

SkiasMay 26, 20161 votes

It seems natural to use vector targetting for this. I instinctively tried to click and drag the ability when I first played her. Two clicks is really clunky.