Before you buff Cho'gath, hear me out.

Crowe Stalker·1/29/2017, 7:12:23 PM·4 votes·1,381 views

I have no idea whether a Dev is going to see this, but frankly as both a Cho'gath and Sion player, I have to say this: If you are going to remove the cap from Cho'gath's Ultimate, please buff Sion's Health Stacking competitively.

So, let me start this by giving a basic idea to those of you who don't know why Riot might be buffing Cho'gath. According to LoLKing.net which collects data in general, Cho'gath currently has .3% popularity among the playerbase, which is basically Aatrox level. By comparison, Sion has .8%, which means out of 1000 games, you will meet about 8 Sions, 3 Cho'gaths, and 3 Aatroxs assuming you never meet the same player twice and none of these champions are banned. According to OP.GG, a site that uses data based on Platinum+ games, Aatrox does not have enough data to make any conclusion but Cho'gath's top pickrate is .6% while his mid is .57%

Please note how I'm not using Winrate here, I'm trying to highlight popularity between them. However, I do need to make a few points.

Cho'gath and Sion, through different means, both can fulfill a pretty similar role in teamfights. They are basically the gargantuan health wall that also provides hard crowd control in the middle of a fight. While Cho'gath lacks the Engage of Sion, he brings greater damage to compensate. However, both serve the same effective purpose in a team.

One thing that you pick Sion over Cho'gath for is Reliability, because Sion loses the raw numbers of Feast in exchange for a slow, but guaranteed climb with his W passive (which gives you 2 HP for every last hit, 10 for large enemies and Champions) Cho'gath can currently lose R stacks if he dies, which means that his fantasy of a gargantuan void monster that obliterates teams can be interrupted if killed, which brings him from 6 stacks (endgame that's 1080 health) to 3 stacks (540) Sion, assuming he has 200 CS (is that a fair number?) would, assuming he kills every Cannon minion, have an effective health pool gain of around 500. On paper, this sounds like a trade of risk verses reward. Cho'gath can get more health, but Sion keeps his health.

However, recently there was a PBE change that made it so Cho'gath never loses his stacks, and can even stack beyond 6 if he kills Champions with his ultimate (though the number of health gained is halved at stacks of 7 and 11, this still throws the delicate balance right out the window) Cho'gath will now effectively always have more health than Sion after two stacks. This means that Sion has now lost one reason to pick him: While he has more reliable health stacking now, Cho'gath will eclipse him before you even hit the mid-game. Aside from his Engage with his ultimate, you have now lost one major reason to pick Sion.

I would, therefore, like to ask for one specific buff to Sion if this isn't scrapped (and one other buff because hey, I'm already asking, why the hell not?) First, double the amount of health Sion gets off of kills from his W. Increase it from 2 to 3, or 5 if you want to remove the 10 health you get off of Large Monsters and Champions. Now Sion can also scale competitively to Cho'gath but where Cho'gath requires kills after 6 stacks, Sion only requires Farm. This then gives both champions their own Scaling Health Niche. Cho'gath can now scale off of his snowball, whereas Sion can still scale even when playing from behind.

Second (because this is my thread, so I can ask anyway) please re-instate the PBE test of Sion's ultimate not stopping if it kills a Champion, but reduce the AD damage scaling to compensate (let's say 30-60% from the current 40%-80%) This now makes Sion more reliable with his ultimate (if a niche case, but still) this gives players a competitive reason to pick Sion: He has a (semi) reliable engage tool.

TL;DR Increase Sion's W passive from 2 to 3, or 5 but remove Large Monster/Champion Bonus, and maybe add the experimental change that allows Sion to keep bowling over targets he kills while ulting.

11 Comments

RageQ21/29/2017, 7:29:21 PM2 votes

I used to play cho'gath jg back in s5 and I get your point, now I realize that these two champs were fairly similar, gameplay wise, and I'm going to agree with you to keep Sion into similar scaling levels with cho'gath. Just remember that cho'gath has to get kills from 7+ stacks to gain the hp. It brings in some counterplay, but not enough to stop his slow scale compared to Sions.

WoonStruck1/29/2017, 8:04:27 PM2 votes

They're removing the AP scaling from Feast.

They're removing the CD refresh on minions/monsters.

His W just got even harder to hit in melee than it already was.


Sion DOES NOT deserve buffs for what Cho's getting.

You can argue that he needs buffs, but in no way should that be associated with Cho.

A little Peepo1/29/2017, 8:13:51 PM2 votes

Asking for sion buffs because chogath getting worked on? Both champions have their own issues but sion is in a better spot than chogath is since his kit is very unreliable and bugged for that matter. Please understand that buff X champion because Y champion got buffed is never a good reason.

Profirix1/29/2017, 7:45:22 PM1 votes

Cho'Gaths popularity is tied in with how difficult he is to play in this meta or the last couple of metas with high mobility and damage reliability being top priority. His play rate will shoot up if the proposed changes actually help. Sion suffers from the same problem but he does scale indefinitely already.

I don't disagree with you though.

Elisheva1/29/2017, 8:04:12 PM1 votes

As a fellow sion player... Please don't request that they buff him. He's in a good place right now, and riot may buff him, but they will give him a compensation nerf that completely changes his identity and ruins him.