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Moody P, here are the statistic of Top lane Bruiser AKA supposed to be suffering against ranged...

taleofsonata··35 votes·11,774 views
Champions - League of Legends

Champion Winrate Pickrate Riven 53.71% 12.32% Yorick 52.92% 7.99% Jax 52.30% 8.19% Olaf 52.26% 3.16% Kled 51.55% 4.42% Irelia 50.17% 11.54%

Meanwhile,

Jayce 50.47% 12.41% Vladimir 49.56% 11.85% Kennen 50.19% 3.05% Teemo 49.40% 3.11% Viktor 47.41% 3.29%

You said that Tanks are the only champions that can go against those champion?

Sion 49.12% 3.06% Malphite 49.00% 2.68% Ornn 48.63% 2.83% Maokai 48.57% 0.79%

You want to know why those tanks stats are low? Juggernaut counters tanks, Conqueror counters tanks which can be abused by any bruiser,

You complained that Juggernaut can only go top, Well Malphite can only go top, Ornn can only go top, Maokai can only go top because his jungling was gutted, Sion can barely jungle against those aggressive jungler.

Neeko can finally go to another lane besides Mid, everyone fucking flips the table and wants Neeko gutted. Seriously? Viktor is a good example, he was one of the weakest Mid laner like Neeko back then, someone found a way to finally make him viable in a lane. He went top and was finally a champion. a couple of patch later, he gets absolutely gutted destroyed. Now he can't go Mid because he is way way too weak for mid lane dominated by ASSASSINS on op.gg 8 of 10 top champions mid are assassins.

Here are the Stats for Mid.

Champions Winrate Pickrate Kassadin 51.67% 9.00% Anti-Mage/Assassin Zed 51.51% 13.00% Assassin Zoe 50.51% 12.48% Burst Mage/Artillery Lissandra 50.90% 12.67% Control Mage/Burst Mage Leblanc 49.48% 12.13% Assassin Katarina 51.90% 6.09% Assassin Ahri 51.61% 6.59% Assassin Fizz 51.39% 4.88% Assassin Talon 50.88% 6.37% Assassin Malzahar 51.09% 5.10% Control Mage

MEANWHILE NEEKO and VIKTOR MID:

Viktor 46.98% 3.92% Neeko 47.00% 0.83% Are they even champions? This is what happen when you gut waveclear for mages, because now they can't play safe anymore.

On the topic of Lissandra while we are at it. LS even said it: Lissandra is strong because MAGES who used to be able to deal with her are WEAK. There is too much Assassins Mid that destroys those mages. Lissandra and Malzahar have in their kit a GTFOFF me button. And because Liss especially can abuse aftershock and make every trade a favorable trade. Penetration damage is too damn high, Zhonya SUCKS, waveclears sucks, AP is too low, went from 1k AP to abysmal 400-500 AP per matches AP ratios are too low,

86 Comments

General Matty20 votes

Just ignore Moody he's a biased bruiser main

taleofsonata12 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Matty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfy4XR9d,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-03-07T23:01:11.411+0000)

Just ignore Moody he's a biased bruiser main

I would like decent human beings to stop upvoting his delusional post and make the community look like a bunch of hashinshin.

Ragnaveil7 votes

And what, accept mages as our overlords?

Sir Saltarin12 votes

On pro play it's almost as Moody says tbh

Nerf Vladimir and Jayce, please.

taleofsonata6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfy4XR9d,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-03-07T23:04:11.836+0000)

On pro play it's almost as Moody says tbh

Nerf Vladimir and Jayce, please.

Pro plays doesn't =/= Usual League games. Over a million of players =/= 100 selected players. LS said something about Korea being slow on the Meta. Technically speaking we are ahead in the META, but that doesn't mean Korean Sucks, it means they are slow at following the Meta. Heck they are the one who invented Neeko top on hit.

Devölution7 votes

Open any high elo top stream.Kennen Neeko Vlad Ryze Jayce 24/7 with some Sylas,Irelia,Riven most of the time.Open competitive - ranged tops are everywhere(Vayne top btw too in competitive).

Also statistics are from 9.4,watch 9.5 insane neeko winrate.

And if u say that bla bla majority of playerbase are not high elo/pro ,but what about recent Aatrox,Urgot,Akali etc nerfs ?

Critmaster Garen11 votes

{quoted}

Champion Winrate Pickrate Riven 53.71% 12.32% Yorick 52.92% 7.99% Jax 52.30% 8.19% Olaf 52.26% 3.16% Kled 51.55% 4.42% Irelia 50.17% 11.54%

all of those specifically excell against ranged top laners though.

his argument isnt invalidated. he said top lane is getting reduced to a pool of ranged champions and melee champions who specifically counter them.

wtf is Vayne doing top lane at rank 13 with a positive winrate like that?

Meanwhile,

Jayce 50.47% 12.41% Vladimir 49.56% 11.85% Kennen 50.19% 3.05% Teemo 49.40% 3.11%

those champions have a pretty solid win and play rate for the fact that the other guys that you listed should shit on them with their kits.

Garen 47.98% 2.24%

please do something riot.

Sir Saltarin4 votes

I wish that this abomination Vladimir was on 46% winrate on soloQ

Crescent Dusk2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfy4XR9d,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-03-07T23:01:11.384+0000)

all of those specifically excell against ranged top laners though.

his argument isnt invalidated. he said top lane is getting reduced to a pool of ranged champions and melee champions who specifically counter them.

wtf is Vayne doing top lane at rank 13 with a positive winrate like that?

those champions have a pretty solid win and play rate for the fact that the other guys that you listed should shit on them with their kits.

Garen 47.98% 2.24%

please do something riot.

Garen does no damage whatsoever early, has no in lane sustain, W is hot garbage on a humongous cd and his passive might as well not exist since it's useless where and when it matters.

Straight up, his ult is worse than Pyke and Darius ult by miles if he doesn't ult a villain.

He has poor wave clear by being forced to spec into Q just to be able to not get totally trounced in trades, and for some reason his E does less damage around minions while Darius Q, Yasuo dashes, Sion minions, Poppy smash, Camille Q hit both champions and minions at no reduced damage.

His E also does no damage whatsoever until later points.

So you have what's supposed to be the defensive counterpart of Darius just be a way worse version of Darius in every possible way, both in TF survivability, damage, getting picks. Having to spin just to get an armor shred Darius gets for free as a passive.

It says everything when you'd rather take Garen mid into assassins and even then get dumpstered by some midlaners like conqueror Yasuo anyways.

Because they nerfed his Q and now it does no damage on a champion that has terrible autoattack DPS, can't use anything but grasp or predator (which is garbage in lane), so it's a champion with no sustain DPS at all.

Saevum3 votes

I did not know that Garen was like that, i usually never check him at all. By all means, he deserves a small something somewhere. The pick sample size, i cant even stop smiling. That should have triggered a flag at some point.

PopcornBunni9 votes

Don't forget the tanks that were doing so bad top the only thing they could do was shift to support.

Shen Nautilus Galio TahmKench Poppy

Poppy was actually doing barely okay top since she countered Riven before the later got item 3161 and new conqueror; but outside of that one matchup she got shat on by every diver, skirmisher, juggernaut, and ranged matchup, only countering other tanks with bad single-use dashes like Shen Galio.

The same is true for any tank vs ranged matchup where they will get harassed off cs for the entire laning phase and denied any items to actually become tanky.

Also this is all after Irelia got nerfs to try and bring her in line lmao

taleofsonata4 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget the tanks that were doing so bad top the only thing they could do was shift to support.

Shen Nautilus Galio TahmKench Poppy

Poppy was actually doing barely okay top since she countered Riven before the later got item 3161 and new conqueror; but outside of that one matchup she got shat on by every diver, skirmisher, juggernaut, and ranged matchup, only countering other tanks with bad single-use dashes like Shen Galio.

True what happened to the tanks? Supports, Mage can't go mid, what happened to the mages? SUPPORT!

nelogis8 votes

Have you even read his post?

He said that top is getting reduced to ranged champs and melees that can deal with them

It's literally the title of his post

Now look at all the viable melee tops you listed, realize something? Almost like these champs can deal with ranged people?

Where are the champs that can't deal with ranged? Where is Darius sitting? Trundle? Mundo? Tryndamere? Fiora?

Where are they?

Ah yeah right, not viable since they can't deal with ranged

Edit:

You said that Tanks are the only champions that can go against those champion?

He didn't say that, he said Sion is the only tank that is able to do it

The Trent1 votes

{quoted}

Have you even read his post?

He said that top is getting reduced to ranged champs and melees that can deal with them

It's literally the title of his post

Now look at all the viable melee tops you listed, realize something? Almost like these champs can deal with ranged people?

Where are the champs that can't deal with ranged? Where is Darius sitting? Trundle? Mundo? Tryndamere? Fiora?

Where are they?

Ah yeah right, not viable since they can't deal with ranged

You're being so ironic and the best part is that you don't know it.

nelogis3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Trent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfy4XR9d,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2019-03-08T07:41:38.179+0000)

You're being so ironic and the best part is that you don't know it.

The all-knowing messiah over here of course has seen beyond the minds of mere mortals

Would you be so humble to elaborate your absolute and finite statement

Infernape6 votes

Viktor was a champion through abusing tank items. If he didn't build gauntlet and actually went full ap, it would've been healthier.

Sir Saltarin5 votes

If he was full AP he wouldn't go Top in the first place and would be played on Mid as he should be.

taleofsonata2 votes

{quoted}

Viktor was a champion through abusing tank items. If he didn't build gauntlet and actually went full ap, it would've been healthier.

I don't think he was abusing gauntlet specifically, he was abusing the combination of Gauntlet CDR + Transcendence synergy. So he would get a bunch of AP, Mana for shields and kiting potential.

Infernape4 votes

It was mostly buying Gauntlet maxing Q and taking klepto. He basically invalidated anything that was melee because they couldn't fight the Q spam and he outscaled them in gold by constantly proccing klepto

Ragnaveil2 votes

Not to mention if they tried to even touch his turret once he'd run them down and slaughter them like pigs from the massive slowing and sticking Gauntlet + Upgraded Q granted as a combo.

Ragnaveil5 votes

Uh what...if him using gauntlet to slow and perma q people with a speed boost on top of decent damage against melees isn't abuse, then what is Ezreal with his double tear build? What is Tank Karma? The point of Gauntlet is to be a tank item, and yet tanks are the worst at using it other than Malph, who is the only one that can generate a massive ass slow zone. As Flowers and Kobe mentioned on This or That, make it melee only.

Ragnaveil2 votes

Not only that, but all in based melee users would have a chance of kicking his ass during lane.

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

"Ranged tops are OP!" - Not reality.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

"Ranged tops are OP!" - Not reality.

actually yes. cause and effect.

whenever you see an adc meta, you see champions like Malphite Rammus also spike in popularity and winrate. this is the general relation between champions and their counters.

garen was at the peak of his strength in season 8, when teams were full of ad assassins in multiple positions (mid, jungle and even support with pyke). this generated an environment of low cc, lethality heavy teams that garen was doing great in.

but considering the fact that all of those melee champions on that list in those top spots have kits that beat ranged top laners, those ranged top laners are still going pretty strong with close to or above 50% winrate.

there are other factors at play here, for example how strong the new conqueror is on those same fighters, but the ranged top laners being as strong as they generally are plays into it.

moody DID say, that top is getting reduced to ranged top laners and champions that can deal with them.

he didnt demand to nerf ranged top laners, but fix the systematic problem of ranged vs. melee power in this game.

taleofsonata2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfy4XR9d,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-03-07T23:09:21.399+0000)

actually yes. cause and effect.

whenever you see an adc meta, you see champions like Malphite Rammus also spike in popularity and winrate. this is the general relation between champions and their counters.

garen was at the peak of his strength in season 8, when teams were full of ad assassins in multiple positions.

but considering the fact that all of those melee champion in those top spots have kits that beat ranged top laners, those ranged top laners are still going pretty strong with close to or above 50% winrate.

there are other factors at play here, for example how strong the new conqueror is on those fighters, but the ranged top laners being as strong as they generally are plays into it.

moody DID say, that top is getting reduced to ranged top laners and champions that can deal with them.

I think its more about the playstyle, Ranged top are relatively safe picks, thats why they can be 1st picked. Its hard to feed as a ranged top laner, Melee tends to be more high risk, high reward in the context that they have to be careful more about the jungler. Ranged have the advantage of wave management and lane control compare to melee champion and are generally bullies.

When someone is uninteractive what does a Top lane bruiser do? Gank other lane or counter jungle. Riven is especially good at roaming and coming back to lane while denying harass all day with that 0 cooldown E. Riven has so much inbuilt damage that most of them always max E 1st because conqueror offers the rest of the damages.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

I think its more about the playstyle, Ranged top are relatively safe picks, thats why they can be 1st picked. Its hard to feed as a ranged top laner, Melee tends to be more high risk, high reward in the context that they have to be careful more about the jungler. Ranged have the advantage of wave management and lane control compare to melee champion and are generally bullies.

i mean yes, thats exactly why theyre pushing melee top laners out of the game, except those with high all in potential.

all of those fighters that are listed up there cant be as easily bullied around, and are capable of suddently crossing distance and blowing the ranged champion up.

taleofsonata1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfy4XR9d,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-07T23:15:25.776+0000)

i mean yes, thats exactly why theyre pushing melee top laners out of the game, except those with high all in potential.

They aren't pushing them out of lane, they are just making the lane boring and uninteractive. Darius would love to rush Black cleaver early game. But he can't because he gets bullied, soo to deal with that he has to rush item 3211 just to have an easier time laning. So depending on the amount of harass he receives during laning phase he is forced to go defensive on a rather very offensive champion. Who needs item like Black cleaver, Trinity Force etc.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

They aren't pushing them out of lane, they are just making the lane boring and uninteractive. Darius would love to rush Black cleaver early game. But he can't because he gets bullied, soo to deal with that he has to rush item 3211 just to have an easier time laning. So depending on the amount of harass he receives during laning phase he is forced to go defensive on a rather very offensive champion. Who needs item like Black cleaver, Trinity Force etc.

darius doesnt build black cleaver. he builds triforce, because black cleaver is garbage. especially when youre trying to fight squishies.

taleofsonata1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfy4XR9d,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-07T23:15:25.776+0000)

i mean yes, thats exactly why theyre pushing melee top laners out of the game, except those with high all in potential.

all of those fighters that are listed up there cant be as easily bullied around, and are capable of suddently crossing distance and blowing the ranged champion up.

I always though that one of the biggest problem about top lane, is that the lane is too big. If you put Kennen in a cage with Darius. What are the odds that Darius will murder Kennen? Because Kennen has less room to navigate thus making the lane much harder for him. So if we increase the Turret ranges of top lane, and change the way waves pushes for top lane. I think it could fix alot of problem.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

I always though that one of the biggest problem about top lane, is that the lane is too big. If you put Kennen in a cage with Darius. What are the odds that Darius will murder Kennen? Because Kennen has less room to navigate thus making the lane much harder for him. So if we increase the Turret ranges of top lane, and change the way waves pushes for top lane. I think it could fix alot of problem.

the odds of darius winning against kennen are extremely low, because kennen can sit on his e and abuse unit collision to escape, while nonstop poking and farming from a distance with his q and autos.

the odds of jax winning against kennen are much higher. if kennen makes one mistep, jax leap strikes, stuns and all ins the kennen.

Ragnaveil3 votes

Not to mention if its AP Kennen with a bit of attack speed, he can keep darius at bay with the power of his passive. Juggernauts against cc= a car with no wheels.

Anomandarist3 votes

I think you two missed the part where OP said "If you put Kennen in a cage with Darius."

He than suggested changing the lane dynamics at top to set it up to feel more like a cage match.

How about instead of increasing turret ranges, they moved the turrets to be in line with the curve of the lane and bushes.

Mordepool8 votes

Playing Melee vs Ranged Feels like shit -Reality

DuskDaUmbreon5 votes

Nobody's arguing that.

But frustrating and OP are completely different things. A champion can be incredibly frustrating and be even useless (see: Heimer, Fiddle, and Tryndamere, who are generally obnoxious to deal with regardless of whether or not you counter them and whether or not they're actually viable), and can occasionally even be overpowered and not frustrating.

Mordepool4 votes

I have said all i needed too. It was more a Reminder Just because statistically the winrates don't look obscene does not mean they are not obscene to face.

Being 100% jungler dependent to win ( or go even) in your lane is such a huge handicap.

I wouldn't be surprised if a large portion of those games Ranged Top lose are just the enemy Bot lane carrying. Since Ranged top is almost always a weaker Composition.

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

Since Ranged top is almost always a weaker Composition.

It's likely a lot of this.

You murder your teamcomp if you take a ranged top. You have a squishy, easy to gank champion designed to be in a duo lane that's in a solo lane. Yeah, they can abuse a good portion of the roster because of their range advantage, but they're going to die in basically any gank, and they're going to die if they're against someone they can't abuse. And then come later in the game, you have no teamfighting power because you have no durable champions and they picked at least one assassin.

Mordepool2 votes

So ultimately Picking a Ranged top into a Melee champ is just a selfish, self gratifying choice. No wonder we see it so often.

Serika Zero2 votes

And then you get ranged top loaners in your team that die twice a n the first 2 minutes and starts to ping you and tells you to go afk. and then his boy bot lane joins in the parade. and you're stuck with 3 losing lanes trying to stop the bleeding and being half tilted.

EUNE needs a mute everything from your team option.... On a single toggle that can be enabled in setting

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

And that's why I take Teemo bot instead of top.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

Teemo bot is even worse, tho, because he sucks ass as an ADC.

He works top because he can abuse some champions very well and he has great map control because of his R. Teemo can survive on his own by making any turret dive a 1 for 1 trade with his kit. He's just too short-range to be much use bot, tho.

MessyStuff2 votes

{quoted}

It's likely a lot of this.

You murder your teamcomp if you take a ranged top. You have a squishy, easy to gank champion designed to be in a duo lane that's in a solo lane. Yeah, they can abuse a good portion of the roster because of their range advantage, but they're going to die in basically any gank, and they're going to die if they're against someone they can't abuse. And then come later in the game, you have no teamfighting power because you have no durable champions and they picked at least one assassin.

I have one answer Gnar . He's tanky, can abuse his range and is mobile so ganks won't do much. Too bad that he sucks right now.

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

Gnar is a special case by having bullshit as fuck design. No champion should have that much durability, mobility, CC, and damage in one kit.

Also, "Too bad"? Don't you mean "Thank fucking god he sucks right now"? Gnar is the Heimer of toplane.

kingDeDeDarius1 votes

Yeah, as a dar main, I hate a competent gnar. Gnar legit out lanes and outscaled dar in every way (mobility, cc, tankiness, range, damage since Darius will never get five stacks against a competent gnar). Resign yourself to selective farming under tower while gnar gains a permanent lead and becomes an infinitely more useful teamfighter

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

{quoted}

Gnar is a special case by having bullshit as fuck design. No champion should have that much durability, mobility, CC, and damage in one kit.

Also, "Too bad"? Don't you mean "Thank fucking god he sucks right now"? Gnar is the Heimer of toplane.

Heimer is the heimer of toplane.

And nah. Too bad he's awful due to pro play. Him having to rely on his team not being braindead and being gutted makes it worthless to pick him.

Alzon4 votes

Oh look, Korea-only stats, very nice.

AceAlex0313 votes

That's only in the korean server. The way different servers play are very different.

5StackUltOneShot2 votes

Also almost all the toplaners you mentioned have been broken since the conqueror change with the exception of Riven and maybe Jax. They arent broken because of their kits but because runes

Daddy Ants2 votes

Jayce isn't "OP" numbers wise.

He's oppressive to play against.

Sir Saltarin1 votes

Dude can be played on pro play on:

TOP JNG MID ADC (and SUPP if you are Mata)

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

Well Malphite can only go top

that's just plain ignorance or you're lying.

aside from that, If afaik these (op.gg) statistics are korea only. Thus they are based on korea's version of the current meta. While his position barely changes on the toplane tierlist (19&18) teemo does go up in winrate by 2% globally in plat+ dropping to the winrate you provide in masters+.

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