300k points in sion, some things need to change.

Ben Sharpio · 2016-01-17T20:57:26.162Z

His R to Q combo is still wonky as hell. If i recall correctly, it was supposed to be fixed all the way back in patch 5.18. Everytime i ult into someone, Sion just awkwardly stands there and i have to reactivate my Q once again. By this time whoever ive hit has either already flashed out, or has just sidestepped the Q. FIX THIS.... Thresh's lantern STILL makes Sion's ult redirect if he hits it. Really? I get that Sion is supposedly one of the healthiest champs in the game, but this "counterplay" is just sad and ridiculous. Thresh's lantern is not terrain. Not sure if this is a glitch, but if I ult in front of a massive minion wave, the minion wave redirects Sion's ult, literally slamming him into the wall Sion's ult hitbox shouldn't be behind him. How can i use his ult as a disengage if whoever is behind me can trigger the knockup and stopme. His W sucks. Short and simple. Thanks for reading.

Ben Sharpio·Jan 17, 2016·156 votes·8,576 views

His R to Q combo is still wonky as hell. If i recall correctly, it was supposed to be fixed all the way back in patch 5.18. Everytime i ult into someone, Sion just awkwardly stands there and i have to reactivate my Q once again. By this time whoever ive hit has either already flashed out, or has just sidestepped the Q. FIX THIS....
Thresh's lantern STILL makes Sion's ult redirect if he hits it. Really? I get that Sion is supposedly one of the healthiest champs in the game, but this "counterplay" is just sad and ridiculous. Thresh's lantern is not terrain.
Not sure if this is a glitch, but if I ult in front of a massive minion wave, the minion wave redirects Sion's ult, literally slamming him into the wall
Sion's ult hitbox shouldn't be behind him. How can i use his ult as a disengage if whoever is behind me can trigger the knockup and stopme.
His W sucks. Short and simple.

Thanks for reading.

171 Comments

Dominick DestineJan 17, 20168 votes

He's one of the worst champs in the game.

Which sucks because I want to play him.

JbelsJan 17, 201634 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfgsBZWG,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-17T21:07:20.171+0000)

He's one of the worst champs in the game.

Which sucks because I want to play him.

Not true. I win games with him regularly, and his winrate is actually pretty ok. He just has weird bugs that should have been fixed within 3 or 4 patches of the release

Dominick DestineJan 17, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Not true. I win games with him regularly

Your emotional arguments have zero value.

"Datsun cars suck" "That's not true, I drive a Datsun" Logic?

his winrate is actually pretty ok

Win rate is meaningless without the other data to compile a data cluster.

How many times has Sion been picked in LCS? zero. How does he fare in Diamond+? he gets destroyed because his entire kit is garbage.

I want to play Sion but I don't want to cripple myself with an inferior pick... which he is.

TroiannJan 17, 201629 votes

How many times has Rengar been picked in LCS as full damage assassin?

Zero.

Buff Rengar.

How is Sion doing in diamond+?

He's sitting at a 55% winrate in plat+ according to op.gg. His winrate is near 60% for games less than 30 minutes, which is roughly where most games end now.

Logic?

Dominick DestineJan 17, 20163 votes

{quoted}

How many times has Rengar been picked in LCS as full damage assassin?

Zero.

Except you're putting a secondary condition which automatically deflates your argument. Fail.

How is Sion doing in diamond+?

He's sitting at a 55% winrate

Win rate argument, yawn.

I'm getting tired of having to explain how that argument only displays that the person arguing it is a (insert word here)

TroiannJan 17, 20167 votes

So basically you have absolutely zero statistical backing...which means you have no argument except "sion is weak".

I don't think you even know how to make an argument.

Dominick DestineJan 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So basically you have absolutely zero statistical backing

You mean aside from the data I specifically stated?

Maybe you should read the above comments once again.

TroiannJan 18, 20161 votes

You said his winrates were low. You said he was doing poorly in high elo.

According to champion.gg which records from the top 10% of players, he has a 55% winrate. You telling me 55% winrate is low?

You have jack shit rofl.

Dominick DestineJan 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You said his winrates were low. You said he was doing poorly in high elo.

Let me explain to you again how it works; Low pick rate inflates win rate. High pick rate deflates win rate.

Sion has a very low pick rate, thus inflating his win rate. It's not complicated.

TroiannJan 18, 20165 votes

Um, no, that's not how it works.

Low playrate, with a HIGH NUMBER OF GAMES PLAYED, inflates winrates, because that means the playerbase is small but dedicated.

Let's take a look at sion.

1.67% pickrate (low). Average games played on sion: 64 (this is extremely low)

So, a small number of people, who don't play sion that much, manage to win 55% of their games with him. Pickrate means very little unless it can be backed up by number of games played. You don't seem to understand how these statistics work, do you now?

JbelsJan 17, 201635 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfgsBZWG,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-17T22:43:39.575+0000)

Except you're putting a secondary condition which automatically deflates your argument. Fail.

Win rate argument, yawn.

I'm getting tired of having to explain how that argument only displays that the person arguing it is a (insert word here)

Your entire argument is "Your argument is invalid because I say it is", despite the fact that our arguments are backed by statistical evidence.

Fail.

Dominick DestineJan 17, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Your entire argument is "Your argument is invalid because I say it is"

Uh yeah, that's not what my argument is, but keep hitting that strawman, that's two fallacies in a row , want to go for a fail-hat trick? unintentional but still impressive.

Maybe read my previous posts to see what my actual argument is.

So basically you have absolutely zero statistical backing

That's literally the exact opposite of what my argument is. It's pretty impressive when YOUR best argument is to present me as the opposite of what I am saying. Epic strawman argument... but here's my actual argument; Win rate is meaningless without the other data to compile a data cluster. Sion has a low pick rate , 1.6% http://champion.gg/champion/Sion His win rate is inflated because his pick rate is low. It's not complicated. It's the reverse effect that we have with Thresh/Lee/Yasuo/Rengar... if Sion had low win rate and low pick rate, that would be indicative of an extremely underpowered character, borderline unplayable even.

JbelsJan 17, 201631 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfgsBZWG,comment-id=0001000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-01-17T23:18:50.723+0000)

Uh yeah, that's not what my argument is, but keep hitting that strawman, that's two fallacies in a row , want to go for a fail-hat trick? unintentional but still impressive.

Maybe read my previous posts to see what my actual argument is.

You sound like a pansy college student fresh out of debate class, holy shit.

Your argument doesn't hold up because it isn't true. In Platinum+ Sion has a 54% winrate in top lane, and a 53 percent winrte in jungle. But no, he's totally getting destroyed

Dominick DestineJan 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You sound like a pansy

Ah, so after you get utterly slammed, you flail around desperately.... in this case manifested as an ad hominem. Nicely done.

Your argument was garbage, thus it was very easily refuted.... I understand that you might like Sion, but you are Bronze... the game plays very different in Diamond bracket. That's not your fault that you are unfamiliar with Diamond bracket but I am telling you that Sion is putrid scoriae... when he is faced against opponents that know what they are doing he just becomes worse and worse.

He's slow, has low damage, is incredibly predictable and loses lane against pretty much everyone. He's a bad character.

DunkinNoobsJan 18, 201617 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfgsBZWG,comment-id=000100000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-17T23:39:42.564+0000)

Ah, so after you get utterly slammed, you flail around desperately.... in this case manifested as an ad hominem. Nicely done.

Your argument was garbage, thus it was very easily refuted.... I understand that you might like Sion, but you are Bronze... the game plays very different in Diamond bracket. That's not your fault that you are unfamiliar with Diamond bracket but I am telling you that Sion is putrid scoriae... when he is faced against opponents that know what they are doing he just becomes worse and worse.

He's slow, has low damage, is incredibly predictable and loses lane against pretty much everyone. He's a bad character.

Stop pulling out the "I'm diamond and therefore my opinion is automatically true" card as if every diamond player agrees with you. They don't, and I don't.

Dominick DestineJan 18, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Stop pulling out the "I'm diamond and therefore my opinion is automatically true" card

Strawman argument once again. Yawn.

He's a troll

Nope, not a troll but feel free to pretend otherwise if it soothes you.

DunkinNoobsJan 18, 201613 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfgsBZWG,comment-id=00010000000000000000000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-01-18T00:12:19.894+0000)

Strawman argument once again. Yawn.

It's exactly what you said.

"Your argument was garbage, thus it was very easily refuted.... I understand that you might like Sion, but you are Bronze... the game plays very different in Diamond bracket. That's not your fault that you are unfamiliar with Diamond bracket but I am telling you that Sion is putrid scoriae... when he is faced against opponents that know what they are doing he just becomes worse and worse.

He's slow, has low damage, is incredibly predictable and loses lane against pretty much everyone. He's a bad character."

That either translates to "I'm diamond and therefore know better" or "Diamond players think Sion sucks.", which is both an appeal to authority and not even particularly true.

Funny, you could replace "Sion" with "Yasuo" and you'd actually be correct. But that's weird, you think Yasuo is super OP. "How many times has ~~Sion~~ Yasuo been picked in LCS? zero. How does he fare in Diamond+? he gets destroyed because his entire kit is garbage."

Dominick DestineJan 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It's exactly what you said

No, that is not "exactly what I said", it's not even remotely close to what I said.

That either translates to "I'm diamond and therefore know better" or "Diamond players think Sion sucks.", which is both an appeal to authority and not even particularly true.

Or, and get ready for this; He gets a lot worse as you play against better players precisely because he's incredibly predictable, slow and horrible across the board. If you look past your own personal insecurities from you being in the bronze bracket, you will see that my argument was never "I am Diamond and therefore correct" but rather, the game is balanced around players that know how to play the game, not the bronze chaos that you are familiar with.

Funny, you could replace "Sion" with "Yasuo" and you'd actually be correct.

Actually no, Sion is pure garbage. Yasuo is blatantly overpowered.

Ironically, Yasuo has a low win rate which in your mind might translate to weak but he has an extremely high pick rate, thus deflating his win rate. Literally the reverse of Sion. It's not complicated ... but I can understand why you would be unable to follow.

JbelsJan 18, 201618 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfgsBZWG,comment-id=00010000000000000000000100000000000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-18T00:38:46.471+0000)

Whenever someone makes that statement without pointing out where and which fallacy.... you can be sure they're talking nonsense. So your argument is dismissed.

You don't know what strawman means, and you've dunked your arguments in Authority Fallacy like they were donuts in coffee.

KaisadiIIaJan 17, 201616 votes

Argued with him a few times. He's a troll, don't even bother.

PrimaquariusJan 18, 201615 votes

#WhenEgosCollide

AkeydelJan 18, 20166 votes

Ok you lost me

Sion has a low pick rate

followed by

His win rate is inflated because his pick rate is high

And it doesnt seem to be a typo because you keep saying "if Sion had low win rate and low pick rate"

Dominick DestineJan 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Ok you lost me

followed by

And it doesnt seem to be a typo because you keep saying "if Sion had low win rate and low pick rate"

That was a mistake. I meant to say "His win rate is higher because his pick rate is low". My mistake... the reverse would be the opposite of what I have been arguing.

LF AnnieJan 18, 20165 votes

i feel sad for all the plebs that don't understand the logic behind your arguments, its the same argument riot themselves use.

if a champion has a high pick rante, and a high winrate they are op if a champion has a high pickrate and a mediocre winrate they are balanced but popular if a champion has a low pickrate and a low winrate they are underpowered and unplayed if a champion has a low pick rate and a decent or high winrate they don't have enough data to balance because only people that play the champ are people who like them for peculiar reason and make them work.

Dominick DestineJan 18, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfgsBZWG,comment-id=0001000000000000000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-18T15:26:08.942+0000)

i feel sad for all the plebs that don't understand the logic behind your arguments, its the same argument riot themselves use.

if a champion has a high pick rante, and a high winrate they are op if a champion has a high pickrate and a mediocre winrate they are balanced but popular if a champion has a low pickrate and a low winrate they are underpowered and unplayed if a champion has a low pick rate and a decent or high winrate they don't have enough data to balance because only people that play the champ are people who like them for peculiar reason and make them work.

Logic is a difficult thing for people that cannot see past their own emotions.

Let them stagnate. Reality has been stated, it is up to them to accept it.

RetroRage96Jan 18, 20161 votes

Get off your high horse man. Just because you're Diamond doesn't mean that you know more about the game than others. If someone doesn't agree with your argument, that doesn't mean that they know less about the game or "cannot see past their own emotions." If your argument is littered with insults and rudeness, nobody is going to take it seriously, and you will simply be regarded as an asshole. Good day, sir.

Dominick DestineJan 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Just because you're Diamond doesn't mean that you know more about the game than others.

I don't remember making that argument but , honestly, it wouldn't be a difficult argument to make.

Bronze chaos is a completely different game than Diamond pride.

Bloodhawk95Jan 18, 20161 votes

Hai picked Rengar Jungle in season 5 summer split.

TroiannJan 18, 20162 votes

Yes, and sion was picked multiple times during season 5 as well.

The dominick guy is just a dumbass.

paaJan 18, 20166 votes

Sion has been picked multiple times in the LCS, both EU and NA

http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/stats.php?id=82&season=ALL&tournament=ALL

So by your statement "How many times has Sion been picked in LCS? zero." being your use of quantifying Sion as bad, I must assume you are talking about Season 6 data. In that case, only about 2 dozen have been picked, so the rest are shit? smh

Dominick DestineJan 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Sion has been picked multiple times in the LCS, both EU and NA

http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/stats.php?id=82&season=ALL&tournament=ALL

I was talking about the current LCS, not last the years prior but fair enough I didn't specify.

You won a point on semantics, good job... if he's been played on current LCS, I'd be surprised but I have not seen it as of yet.

plantersJan 18, 20167 votes

here's the real problem. according to your logic sion doesn't need buffs. about a 55% win rate BACKED UP by the following statistics. He is currently netting #14 in terms of deaths meaning he dies less than 60% of top laners in every game. This is good because it means he feeds the enemy team the least. He is #5 is terms of assists meaning he is one of the best champions at aiding his team. Considering that sion was reworked into a true tank this means he is doing a pretty phenomenal job. He has the 12th highest average damage taken per game and is 21 in killing minions. All of this combined with the fact that he nets 12k gold per game and has one of the lower damages dealt (he is placed number 28 in this statistic) means he is actually straight dominating games as a true tank. Further more after about 15 games sion's win rate goes up substantially. Your whole arguement is based on Sion is bad but there is actually very little evidence to support this. Yeah his average games played is a little high but considering how monstrous all his other statistics are it seems a little warranted. I am not saying Sion couldn't use a few QOL buffs like fixing some of the awkwardness in his kit, but I dont think the arguement he is garbage holds almost any weight.

KensueJan 17, 20168 votes

[deleted]

AbodyHUN666Jan 18, 20161 votes

Yeah, I really liked his pre 6 gank potential with those crazy laneganks with ult. Too bad that now he takes so much damage while clearing.

StealthyZerglingJan 18, 20164 votes

u say pre 6 but then you say ult im confused. :(

BlackxHokageJan 18, 20164 votes

I main Sion maybe not 300k mastery points but I'm at like 80 thousand and I main him since his rework and for the past two seasons I've kept a pretty good win rate with him. So to be honest he's in a good spot . The only problems I see is

His passive is almost useless after level 2. It's good for early 1 for 1 trades or for when you invade and die early and just go HAM. But other that that late game you just use it to suck up so cc and most of the time if your dead that early odds are your losing that team fight.

2 his w Early game. His w early game is almost a joke. It's can barley tank a few caster minions . It'll probably eat 1 champ basic attack and it's done the shield early needs a buff maybe make it bigger early the 3 second wait is ok but at least let me tank something lol.

Other than those two things Sion is great and I plan to main him again this season. Oh yea and remember when they were gonna make it so when he killed so body while ulting he would keep running ? What happened to that???

KrugLyfeJan 25, 20161 votes

I wish they would speed up his passive a bit it sucks dying and then trying to kill the enemy when they're right next to you but they can just walk away...

RakvirJan 17, 20163 votes

Quick question: why is it that when I go to Q, sometimes it turns him roughly anywhere from 120-180 degrees, completely missing anything I wanted to hit? Wave clear is a son of a gun, hence why I prefer support Sion. Don't have to deal with a wonky Q most of the time.

Ben SharpioJan 18, 201610 votes

His Q goes wherever your cursor is, so make sure that your cursor is where you want his Q to be directed.

allthemuslimsJan 18, 20163 votes

I play Sion support and Jungle a bit,, and I agree with everything that you said above except for his w sucking. It enables his somewhat healthy clears and blocks an early game harass ability/autoattack when I'm support which wins me tradesin a kill vs poke lane

JbelsJan 17, 20162 votes

I agree with everything on this list except for the things I haven't actually experienced yet (thresh lantern interaction, giant minion wave glitch)

Ben SharpioJan 17, 20166 votes

The reason why you haven't experienced it is because the situations are rare. I can't tell you how many games i've played with sion ( a lot ) but the thresh lantern and minion wave "glitch" has happened a couple times. Even though the situations are rare, the fact that the ult redirecting is still a possibility is annoying.

Here's a post i made FOUR MONTHS AGO about it

Olath QuortekJan 18, 20162 votes

I agree with everything you said except the last one... because his W is good. :3

AHeroNamedHawkeJan 18, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Olath Quortek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfgsBZWG,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2016-01-18T01:22:21.445+0000)

I agree with everything you said except the last one... because his W is good. :3

Getting broken by an autoattack is pretty neat

Olath QuortekJan 18, 20162 votes

Crying like a baby is pretty neat ;)

By which I mean MY shield doesn't usually get broken by an AA and if it did I would play around it. It has the potential to not only be the biggest shield in the game but also be the most damaging; hell yes it should be hard to use... XD

AHeroNamedHawkeJan 18, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Olath Quortek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfgsBZWG,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2016-01-18T02:33:55.042+0000)

Crying like a baby is pretty neat ;)

By which I mean MY shield doesn't usually get broken by an AA and if it did I would play around it. It has the potential to not only be the biggest shield in the game but also be the most damaging; hell yes it should be hard to use... XD

Your opinion doesn't change the fact that its a base 63 point shield

Olath QuortekJan 18, 20161 votes

So how do you play around it? O.o

James StoneJan 18, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Olath Quortek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfgsBZWG,comment-id=000e0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-18T03:08:54.104+0000)

So how do you play around it? O.o

You don't. Your opponents are too dumb to properly exploit you

Olath QuortekJan 18, 20161 votes

Wah Wah Wawawawawawawawah... Sad day D;

A list of simple things to keep in mind when using Sion's W that I posted on a different thread:

Don't be afraid to activate it early... If your thinking of trading or you think they want to then pop it up... Make them think about it... The big red bubble is scary! And if your jungling put your first point into your W like usual and activate it at 1:36 so that you can pop it as soon as you need to (you can basically take 1 hit from the camp before it gets popped at this point).

You can activate your shield while charging your Q and while ulting. Use that to your advantage because they can't pop your shield if they're running/CCed/can't even see you yet (choo choo!).

Your E is your most reliable ability; use it to set up your Q and to keep them off you/slow them down so you can disengage as your shield is charging.

I also pointed out in the same post that a second point in W at lvl 4 is a great idea as it bumps it up a bit in both durability and damage.

I don't care who your opponent is or how good/smart they are... There are ways to get your shield off if you want to get your shield off. Good luck to ya. :3

James StoneJan 18, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Olath Quortek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nfgsBZWG,comment-id=000e000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-18T12:26:53.530+0000)

Wah Wah Wawawawawawawawah... Sad day D;

A list of simple things to keep in mind when using Sion's W that I posted on a different thread:

Don't be afraid to activate it early... If your thinking of trading or you think they want to then pop it up... Make them think about it... The big red bubble is scary! And if your jungling put your first point into your W like usual and activate it at 1:36 so that you can pop it as soon as you need to (you can basically take 1 hit from the camp before it gets popped at this point).

You can activate your shield while charging your Q and while ulting. Use that to your advantage because they can't pop your shield if they're running/CCed/can't even see you yet (choo choo!).

Your E is your most reliable ability; use it to set up your Q and to keep them off you/slow them down so you can disengage as your shield is charging.

I also pointed out in the same post that a second point in W at lvl 4 is a great idea as it bumps it up a bit in both durability and damage.

I don't care who your opponent is or how good/smart they are... There are ways to get your shield off if you want to get your shield off. Good luck to ya. :3

Newsflash, everyone already knows what you're saying. You aren't delivering sage knowledge, it's pretty common stuff that everyone who played Sion once or twice knows.

A boat with a cracked hull is still sea-worthy, doesn't mean it shouldn't get some quality of life repairs