Why not give Wits End health?

Ralanr··14 votes·1,279 views

So Wits End is supposed to be an AP bruiser item but I don't see anyone really build it. I think this is due to how few stats it actually gives for a melee item. My problem with AP bruiser itemization is that it feels held hostage by mages (and nobody likes tanky mages). Every AP build feels like "Fuck ton of AP, best items to give it" which honestly screws over AP bruisers in diverse itemization compared to AD bruisers.

Now as much as people hate how much stuff AD itemization gives bruisers, we know it gives them a lot so that they can survive against ranged targets long enough to have a chance in winning (course when fighting a snowballing bruiser this doesn't feel like it). Since AP bruiser itemization lacks that, they usually get shafted.

So why not give items that AP mages and assassins can't utilize effectively a better benefit towards AP bruisers. Yes Wits End won't provide AP, but it will make your magic damage abilities hit harder against targets, and with a little health it might be worth getting as a core AP bruiser item.

We could do something similar to nashors tooth as well. Maybe reduce it's AS or remove the AS to give it other stats like Magic Pen or health.

Thoughts?

37 Comments

KONO RUBICK DA6 votes

Never never and never

black cleaver is already a universal item good in every situations

i don't want wits end to be the same due to health, and being bought in every game

wits end doesn't have problems, it already has its niche. strong on on-hit effect champions and strong when your team is full of magic damage

it doesn't need a buff, however i admit that it falls off in late game they need to increase the as/mr as well as the cost

that way it's slot efficient in late game

Ralanr3 votes

So AP bruisers and assassins need to have their itemization kept in check by mage balance?

Say what you want about AD itemization, but at least it diversifies itself amongst the different types of AD champions (lethality for assassins, crit for ADCs, and flat AD+health for bruisers). AP itemization doesn't and leads to everyone seemingly balanced around the same stat despite having kits that work very differently. AP bruisers end up feeling much less durable or even less bursty than regular AD bruisers and feel much worse when behind imo. Giving them more specific itemization that benefits them much better than it could regular mages could bring them to a better balance spot and even lead to mage itemization that works better for mages without making AP bruisers or assassins too overbearing.

KONO RUBICK DA12 votes

wits end isn't meant for ap bruisers, it's meant for on-hit effect champions the mr shred is here to help the entire team, not ap bruisers

and while i don't know anything about ad itemization, fact that black cleaver has cdr and hp is retarded and opens the item for everyone

Ralanr2 votes

Why not make it work for AP bruisers like Diana then? Help better define their itemization.

LankPants4 votes

Because Diana will never have a reason to buy Wit's End over Nashor's Tooth. If Wit's is at a powerlevel where it's an item anyone will consider you'd expect champs like Irelia, Jax and Shyvana to be the ones buying it.

Ralanr1 votes

Why would Irelia buy it? Does she do magic damage? Is she fighting a mage long enough that she needs the MR steal?

And why can't Diana buy both those items?

LankPants4 votes

Why would Irelia buy it? Does she do magic damage? Is she fighting a mage long enough that she needs the MR steal?

Yes, she is fighting a mage that long quite often. It's combination of stats is just really good on Irelia too, it gives MR, On hit damage, and AS, even if she doesn't care that much about the MR shred the rest of the stats have so much synergy with her that she wouldn't pass up Wit's End if it wasn't an abysmal item.

And why can't Diana buy both those items?

Because Diana gets almost no value from attack speed. She has one of the worst base Attack Speeds in the game which is then offset by the AS on her passive. When she buys AS she gains less than almost any other champ because of her flat out pathetic 0.625 base AS.

Diana has a very unique AS curve, her passive makes her early AS very high but her AS scales abysmally with both levels and items due to her low base AS.

Just for comparison here a lv 18 Irelia with 0.9 bonus AS from items and no other bonuses will have 1.63 AS, a Diana with 0.9+her passive will have 1.55 AS, almost a whole 0.1 lower. Because of this inefficiency it's just better to build other items, namely Abyssal on Diana for a greater effect.

Ralanr3 votes

Ok I didn't know that about Diana. I always assumed that she was intended to have some AS built but people just kept building her to burst people.

nanogibbon1 votes

Yeah, me too. I'd assumed that her passive was designed to push people in the direction of attack speed to maximize the 3-hit, but that it turned out glass-cannon assassin Diana was more effective.

Ralanr3 votes

Shame really. Would prefer her to be more of a dps fighter than a burst one tbh.

Spoofghoul2 votes

wits end works nicely with thornmail & sunfire though

just throw in a sorc boots mpen or hybridpen runes on top

i used to do that sometimes on sion

just smack that adc in the face and reduce their mr to below 0 then let them feel the 85 magic dps from wits sunfire and the 15%damage +25% armor returndamage from thornmail

it's super effective haha

though it's only really good vs multiple auto attack focused champs

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

How should Black Cleaver be itemized then?

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

50AD+10%CDR+10flat armor pen like it used to be from s3 to s4

then riot reworked it to open the item to bruisers and ADCS which was a bad idea originally (s3) it was only strong on casters like zed/pantheon/talon/kha/riven

Ralanr3 votes

They never intended it for ADCs (the last change was supposed to dissuade them from buying it) it just sorta happened.

Plus they removed other forms of bruiser itemization like Atmas.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

Plus they removed other forms of bruiser itemization like Atmas.

at least atma wasn't built on ranged adc and on jayce and on many other champions that are using black cleaver

black cleaver is just retarded, built on 90% of adc champions

Ralanr1 votes

I don't know if it's still that commonly built on ADCs but I agree that it shouldn't be built on them.

NineTailedMystic4 votes

That's sort of the problem with AP itemization lol. Every AP archetype dips into each others itemization and that's really why APs can't have nice things.

Ralanr2 votes

And that's what I'm trying to fix. Because really it's dumb for every AP champion to be held down like that imo.

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

There is nothing wrong with some items being core and some items being situational. Especially when the situational clause is strong enough to edge out the core in some niche situations.

Problem is when some items become too core for their own good. And black cleaver is no longer in that category. You are better off delaying it for a hexdrinker if against an AP or something else in other situations. That's fine.

Wit's end doesn't even fall in the situational category at this point. There are combination of stats which are simply not worth the price, despite the gold efficiency, because investing in them alone at a given time will make you fall behind. Wit's end has one of those combinations.

Poske1 votes

Only champion building wits end is like kog maw.....

Yeah............

Clearly wits end doesnt need changes atleast its not as lonely as ohmwrecker

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

if you're warwick/shyvana, and your team is full of magic damage and you don't build it, then you did a terrible decision

LankPants1 votes

Wit's End gives Shyvana less than Hexdrinker>Maw. It's just an underpowered item right now.

SirΤeemο2 votes

as a teemo main,i buy wits end often , will be useful some health on it ! yes please !

NodirjonSattarov2 votes

daddy coming KogMaw

SlashStriker2 votes

item 3091 = item 3211 + item 1043

item 3091 = item 3751 + item 1043

Ralanr2 votes

No bamis. That would make it synergize too well with itself.

Nielarken1 votes

It actually wouldn't because the final item wouldn't change which would be wits end but with hp. Just like you don't keep the hp regen passive from item 3211 when you turn it into item 3065 .

Ralanr1 votes

All bami items have the passive though.

Wolftastic331 votes

{quoted}

It actually wouldn't because the final item wouldn't change which would be wits end but with hp. Just like you don't keep the hp regen passive from item 3211 when you turn it into item 3065 .

It turns into non-stop regen. So it's an upgrade

Melledoneus1 votes

Shen item 3091

Fuck your MR and your meta.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Shen deals magic damage? I know AP shen is a thing, but which of his abilities scale on AP?

Ralanr1 votes

Q and ult. Q does magic damage.

sirwaterfles1 votes

[slayer-pantheon-rainbows] me when reading the titel. It would be so much better earlygame and so nice on myTahmKench Volibear Warwick

However fear of it becomming the new bc and abused by lets say Fizz Ekko and subsiquentually nerfed around them is to real.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Bad idea... this sh*t (Kennen )is already a thing

Wolftastic331 votes

I'd love to see low amounts of stats on finished items. Like 20 HP. 5 Armour.

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