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Thought on Talon, ~50 games on reworked

rtbf76109271··6 votes·1,263 views

I feel this guy was totally forgotten about out of the champions which were reworked. His rework had so much good in it and with a few small changes he could be so awesome.

  1. Too much damage on passive, not enough damage on ult A bit like leblanc, his passive does like 3x the damage of his ultimate. This is a problem to me because sending his ult blades through the enemy team as he jumps to a carry is his only real teamfight contribution (past the assassination, if he can make one). They do almost no damage, yet his passive is STACKED. His passive, while incredibly hard to proc on someone who knows its threat, does far too much damage at lv1 to lv3. If you proc it and you took ignite, you get first blood. It's pretty much that simple. It's far too much damage that early on BUT also way too hard to proc since you must AA it. So that leads to the next point

  2. Allow his r -> q to proc his passive, if they have 3 stacks With a lower passive damage, I think it would certainly be fair to allow his passive to proc off of his rq, if they have 3 stacks. Right now, you must hit with initial r, then q them, the r goes into them and you get 3 stacks. However since you much AA after, this is surprisingly hard to proc since you already used your gap closer q. If his ult damage went up, and passive went down, it could make for the same amount of damage total except his ult blades would do more to OTHER enemies as he goes in. This would overall be a buff. His teamfight damage is very lacking and I believe this is a key reason his win rate is so low. As shown in the past Zed killing your laner a bunch and then going 1 for 1 at best in team fights is NOT ENOUGH to have a 50% win rate, healthy/viable champion. Talon, like zed, needs to have some better teamfight presence in order to be played. Putting more power into his ult and less into his passive would do the trick I think.

  3. Revert movespeed nerf, or add it to that movespeed on his ult This feels so silly when playing him in lane and trying to get in range to q. It also effects his ability to run at someone during his r, before it runs out. I don't see why it needed to be nerfed and this could be reverted for sure. It basically means until item 3142 item 3117 , you have to flash every time you assassinate someone. Unless you can jump over a wall right on top of them, which is circumstantial at best. Assassins need to be able to gap close without flash, basically all other assassins can and even several mages/fighters/adcs can too

  4. Fix wall jump bugs, as shown here: http://imgur.com/a/eKobN Talons e often puts you in very odd spots, jumping in a completely different direction than where your cursor was. In this image, I have my cursor over the small wall. It is within range of my e circle indicator. I press/release e, and jump backwards and to the right, landing on the same side of the wall as I started. Since that wall goes on cooldown, I die. This happens far too often and I suggest that riot looks into this unexpected behavior and ensures that if e casts you actually end up on the other side of the wall kind of near your cursor

8 Comments

orKs Shamrodia1 votes

good a main assassin :D i dont really know talon so i cant really help you with your question but maybe you can help mine :D as a talon player do you think your champion can, against an evenly fed squishy target after level 6 :

deal 80% of his max health the first 1.5s (pretty much full combo) then at least 40% on the next 2s (the "delayed" follow up) and nothing for the next 4s (meaning you're out of gas) (that's what i think a healthy/viable assassin should deal in which time)

to do that does your assassin have at least 2 skill check ? (your target had the chance to avoid skillshots or situationnal placement (think fiora's passive or shaco's crit))

do you think talon has enough in fight escape ? should he ? does he have enough roaming potential ? then does that make splitpushing a good strategy for him ?

do you agree that assassin should have the damage alone to burst down a squishy target (if they pass skill checks) but not have the reach to get to them and that is the role of someone else in the team ? if yes do you think you bring enough to your team or you should also bring something else than burst damage which is not reach ? like a splitpush option or some aoe damage or some utility (like a fiora ultimate that pop a healing field if you've successfully killed a target)?

thanks in advance if you answer those question :D

Troll for Trump1 votes

deal 80% of his max health the first 1.5s

Unless they stand still, no

then at least 40% on the next 2s

Yes; it's more like 40% in the first 1.5 and 60% after that. Or 60/40 perhpas

and nothing for the next 4s

That'd be.. stupid. 4s is ridiculously long. If you mean burst, then yeah. But literally being a sitting duck would be stupid.

to do that does your assassin have at least 2 skill check ?

Passive needs an AA to proc W delay E delay R delay Very little dmg except at literal point blank range. If you could get in that range with any other champs, they'd be dead too. Assassins aren't doing significant dmg.

do you think talon has enough in fight escape ? should he ?

Yes, but, if it weren't for the fact that he wasn't killing the intended target, then I'd answer no. It should be more like this: You can kill the target and then have a lesser champ of escaping, or get a safe escape, but not kill them. LB does that sorta

does he have enough roaming potential ? Yes

then does that make splitpushing a good strategy for him ? No, as Q doesn't reset AA(it never worked on turrets before, but it would still AA reset), with youmuu's nerf his turret killing potential isn't very high.

do you agree that assassin should have the damage alone to burst down a squishy target (if they pass skill checks) but not have the reach to get to them and that is the role of someone else in the team ?

No, the skill checks are things the target needs to pass to survive their burst. If they don't pass skill checks, they should be dead.

if yes do you think you bring enough to your team or you should also bring something else than burst damage which is not reach ? like a splitpush option or some aoe damage or some utility (like a fiora ultimate that pop a healing field if you've successfully killed a target)?

Utility, probably not. Definatly not an overbearing amount. But dmg, yes, some, but not like Brand-level; most of the dmg will be directed at a carry, and the rest is to people in the way. For old Talon, that was with W+R dealing some dmg, but also getting BC procs. (since his dmg was amplified vs a single target, and not for anyone else, that target would sustain the most dmg while everyone else wouldn't get that much, unless he was super fed)

I liked old Talon better. This one shifted power from midgame into earlygame, and kept the lategame power level more or less the same.

orKs Shamrodia1 votes

ok correct me if i'm wrong the way i see it a normal assassination is : you use R after 1.5 thanks to sprint or flash you get in range of Q you Q that leaps you to the target (+ automatic AA) that also send the blades back from R you immediatly use W after 0.5s the blades from R reach the target after another 0.5s W comes back to you you then have a second AA that proc your passive (which you have a hard time to get since you have no sprint and slow from W is really really low)

the way i see it your target has a huge window to see you coming (roughly 2s before you actually dash on them) then you deal some damage (Q non crit + initial W + first AA) then very shortly some other damage (R come back) then very shortly after another damage (W come back + AA) then your burst is over you only AA till you're next q is up

Passive needs an AA to proc W delay E delay R delay Very little dmg except at literal point blank range. If you could get in that range with any other champs, they'd be dead too. Assassins aren't doing significant dmg.

the way i see it you strictly have 0 skillcheck T_T and your burst damage is really low for an assassin

No, the skill checks are things the target needs to pass to survive their burst. If they don't pass skill checks, they should be dead.

that's exactly my spirit :D and Talon has non at the moment ... assassin should the role with the highest personal skill check that's really a shame :s

Yes, but, if it weren't for the fact that he wasn't killing the intended target, then I'd answer no.

i'll take that as a no

So there's no way talon's gonna get damage buffs without skill check let's try give him some so he can have a damage buff i've tryed to add 2 skill check since assassin should never be able to 100 0 someone in a very short window (toxic) his damage is seperated in 2 : the initial burst and the follow up the some up of those 2 parts should however be able to equal at least 140% of a squishy target if both skill check are met

my proposition :

Q spell : gain 20% movement speed on activation

this should help you get the passive proc as well as the new W

**W spell : ** the slow is now on the first wave first activation : you send the blades away dealing 50% more damage than actual value they stay there for up to 2,5s can be activated again after 1,5s second activation : send the blades back to you dealing 50% more damage than actual value bleeding targets takes double damage from the second wave

this is a real skill check as you need to keep your target between you and your floating blades in a delayed, very short and predictable period of time this way you can boost the damage really high

E spell

passive : killing a champion gives you this buff : you can use Assassin's Path to blink to the target location even if there is no terrain nearby (its range is reduced to 400 unit though) the buff cannot occur more than once every 30s

here is your escape you kinda need to not screw things up though :O

R spell : the blades and the stealth/sprint are now seperate bonus and do not interact with each other the blades do not go back if you leave stealth nor go to your target nor to the target of your Q

when you clic on the spell you need to target a location the stealth/sprint is unchanged after 1.5s the blades will go to the location you've initially targeted

bleeding targets take double damage (not really an assassination bonus but it would be nice right ;D)

_you should have predicted the general direction to deal damage (second skill check) you can even up the damage that way _

tell me what feel about that

Xevestos1 votes

It would be nice if people kept building assasin with these changes but some of them will make him better in a bruiserish way.

I would prefer these changes:

  • Base stat buffs (ms, ad/lvl, armor/lvl)

  • Buff or remove q heal on kill, it feels too unrewarding, move power somwhere else

  • Let q proc passive if it adds the third stack

rtbf761092711 votes

ya the heal on q is incredibly small. A mana refund would be way better. Or maybe a bit of decaying move speed

Xevestos1 votes

As someone who decided to main jgl talon (yeah I know it's even worse then midlane atm), the heal seems nice in theory but with a value that low it ain't even worth it.

Mana refund would make him a bit too similiar to irelia and wouldn't be worth much in his allready bad late.

Decaying movespeed ... dunno, not many situations it could be useful in.

Maybe just exchange it with q bein able to proc passive, would be a nice qol change at all stages.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

Talon has definitely taken a hit to his ult in terms of damage however I feel as if he's about as powerful in damage overall as before(to champions)

With the power being shifted into a "I poke you then if you decide to try and hit me back Imma murder you" type of playstyle(at least I play most successfully like that usually getting an moderately easy 3/0 in lane)

but idk the buffs might set him over the edge a bit considering his passive damage is massive, like you said

EDIT:

I meant the buffs would be too much because that would mostly shift the powerspike to level 6 which isn't bad persay but it could be a bigger problem considering how low the ult cooldown is even at level 6 in comparison to other champs

rtbf761092711 votes

That why I think his passive damage needs to be lowered if his ult damage were to go up

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