I start the game with 22 armor and zed can have a mini hexdrinker
neato
neato
certain classes got really messed up and i am not even talking about the runes, just the champ stat buffs they recently gave are way off the mark
"not even talking about Runes" -> yeah well, that's the problem. The stat buffs aren't supposed to be balanced in a vacuum, you must take the whole package into account, including Runes.
I think the point is, there are issues outside of Runes, and adding on runes it compounds the problem. Some champions got EXACTLY what they needed from the compensation buffs. Some champs got stuff that doesn't make sense and treated them like say, Vlad as a top laner over Vlad as a mid laner, and so on. Some champs were fine, some didn't get the right stuff at ALL, like junglers that randomly didn't get attack speed, and the runes do not help enough for them.
When you have 138 champions who need rebalanced simultaneously, it makes sense that you aren't going to get them exactly right. In fact, you really shouldn't try to. It's much better to give everyone small buffs to compensate for the general stats lost from runes, and then make more fine-tune changes as needed once you actually have data from players on live. On this scale, it is way easier to react to the champions' actual performance than to try to predict how they will perform, beforehand.
So maybe don't implement systems that are too big and do it slowly and properly? They have an army of tester that probably reported the issue. I know i worked in a testing house that worked for Rito. They don't give a f*ck about half the things that are reported.
If you do it slowly and "properly" then you still risk having balance problems, and in cases like a preseason where there are a lot of changes that may or may not be interdependent on each other then you may have a lot of problems where you release one or two parts and not another 2-3 parts.
A good example if this is the mage update, where Vladimir was rebalanced around not having spellvamp anymore and spellvamp was removed in the same update. If Vladimir still had access to spellvamp and was rebalanced around not having it then he would have been hideously broken, while if no longer had spellvamp and was still balanced around having it then he'd be unplayable garbage.
Okay so in my eyes there is a difference between having balance problems and straight up not thinking about the full picture. You cannot sit there and tell me they intended for Urgot to 100-0 Mundo who had ninja tabi and components for sunfire cape, under tower, through ulti with Press the Attack. You cannot tell me they intended for this to happen. What is even sadder is that there are so many balance issues, like tanks being completely useless, yet they had 3 months of playtesting to get it right. This happens every single preseason where they just release the most broken crap for us to deal with.
The main problem I have with it is, i thought this would be a good system where you can play whatever fits your playstyle, but you really can't still so this massive patch doesn't even have the merit of fixing the issue of the old system. There is still a 100% best way to play and setup a champion.
And I think this is where people are angry at riot. They have 3 months to playtest something, and it isnt balanced nor is it even close to fixing the issues of the old system. So as much as you can sit here and say that its hard to balance, when you have 3 months to look at it, you should be able to get it mostly right, instead we are sitting in a meta where there is an entire class that is useless (tanks) and we have an entire class of auto attackers who are completely busted with Press the Attack.
Maybe if they listened to their playerbase, you know the people who actually play the game (yes we have known for a while now that there are very few rioters who play their own game) and tone back the base damages of abilities like we asked, for the past year. The game is too snowbally, turrets deal no damage, early game champions dont feel special anymore because EVERY SINGLE CHAMPION has an early game spike now, items are just way too strong for damage positions, cho'gath is actually retarded, what the hell is kayn and why can he clear, gank, and teamfight better than most junglers, why is hypermobility still a thing after 2 years of it being a clear problem? It has been like this for an entire year, where people have been asking for the same things again and again and Riot refuses to listen to their player base and things keep getting worse and worse.
So that being said, are you sure you can support their decision making when they are ignoring people with close to 20k hours in the game? I get their formula for success here, but playerbase is dropping fast, and they have to revert alot of what has happened. Damage needs to go back to season 3 levels, which will in turn fix alot of the issues with the game. Base damages have been creeping up to the point where early game is the same for everyone yet late game is still a place thats insanely strong for a few. This is just what I have observed over the past 6 years. If you disagree, fine, It just means I care more and have more passion for this beloved game. Unfortunately the company who owns it doesnt anymore.
Do not forget armor increase on Zed protect him from AA harrassment which is a good part of mage damage in early game until their ap damage scale and until then Zed has plenty time to buy some mr into hexdrinker.
"Armor increase" that exactly matches the armor he lost with old runes.
[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TE1b48Qv,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-11-10T19:12:24.000+0000)
"Armor increase" that exactly matches the armor he lost with old runes.
Ok then lets say "armor decrease" for ap champion.
[{quoted}](name=Ahri Inari,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TE1b48Qv,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-11-10T19:13:52.577+0000)
Ok then lets say "armor decrease" for ap champion.
And MR decrease for AD. Not to mention you got free base AP now.
And MR decrease for AD. Not to mention you got free base AP now.
But AD auto attack are not AP. They do not hybrid damage in the early game. AD lose MR, AP lose both armor and mr.
[{quoted}](name=Ahri Inari,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TE1b48Qv,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-10T22:35:34.282+0000)
But AD auto attack are not AP. They do not hybrid damage in the early game. AD lose MR, AP lose both armor and mr.
What does it matter in the matchup? AD assassins only do physical damage. AP champs do both.
What does it matter in the matchup? AD assassins only do physical damage. AP champs do both.
I think he meant while AD does more damage to AP for their removal of armor rune with both auto attack and spell, AP does more damage to AD with spell only. Their auto attack damage toward AD remain the same.
and you can have a fcking Mini Zhonyas either from mastery or 600 gold
What good is that when you literally have 22 fucking Armor and one bad trade can easily chunk you for half your health?
Also it’s one time use.
You still can easily deny 1 all in.
Also it's not like that other people didn't lose MR runes too.
One in all what? You don’t have to necessarily kill some one in lane to win it you can have pressure to constantly harass them and shove them in, and right now AD hits like a truck considering most mages only got an increase health and health growth that’s all.
But poor Zed
BASE ARMOR 26.88 ⇒ 32 BASE ATTACK DAMAGE 54.71 ⇒ 63 BASE HEALTH 579 ⇒ 584 HEALTH GROWTH STAT 80 ⇒ 85 Q - Razor Shuriken BASE DAMAGE 70/105/140/175/210 ⇒ 80/115/150/185/220 E - Shadow Slash BASE DAMAGE 65/90/115/140/165 ⇒ 70/95/120/145/170
Also Hexdrinker and Mercs and you also have the ability to build into EoN also being devils advocate here you can also buy a stopwatch if you wanted.
...And he still is under 50% winrate
Stop acting like a one time Zhonyas isn't strong, especially when you can build it into a full one later.
AD hitting like a truck? You are acting like everyone losing their MR Runes isn't a thing. One misstep and you lose the trade too, Shield or not. AP hits like a truck too.
And it's not like that you can't harass and shove in an Assassin that's only waveclear is his W, which is also his trading tool, on a 22sec CD as a low CD AP champ too.
You also got compensation buffs on your skills because Zed is a champion that is suppose to excel in one vs one.
But you literally have more options when it comes to building for a one vs one than a mage does. As mentioned with Hexdrinker, Mercs, EoN, Stopwatch you can also jump between shadows and also you’re pretty much invulnerable in your ult.
Yes stopwatch is useless it’ll one save your life once but it’s not even worth rushing a Zhonyas and also the price is higher than what most assassins will get before they even get their defensive stat, and Zhonyas is only the one defensive item against AD champions they don’t have anything else, maybe Tabi?
Thing is of course you need the tools to 1v1 early.
If you go even in lane you are falling off and going to be useless if you don't play the mid game very well.
isn't useless too rush, especially against Assassins.
Same goes for Stopwatch.
If you prevent 1 all in then you could possibly deny their snowball, or at least delay it, which is the worst that can happen to AD Assassins.
The cool-down on that is longer than your ultimate as the game goes. Zed excels in the split pushing game and would easily kill any mage in a side lane who doesn't have Zhonyas up.
The cooldown of Zhonya is always longer than Zed's ult.
every mechanically difficult champion that gets popular has a low winrate. When they last buffed rivens ult damage, her win rate went DOWN. Many people tried her in ranked due to the buff that didn't know what they were doing. She was objectively stronger
You should go work for Riot's statistical offices tbh and tell the people what's really happening to the win statistics
I mean I one trick pony Zed since pretty much season 4 , and you're kinda right , he was kinda busted in the last 4 months , and runes made him even stronger , not forgetting the fact that stopwatch arrival has dropped his bann rate by almost 50 % , and for a guy that played him so much , timing vs zhonya is really easy , and i usually get first blood before 6 min too anyway , when he has one item such as duskblade he has ridiculous burst and just needs R as a gap closer after ennemy flash when you W E Q auto combo them , you can have magic sheild rune meanwhile to be safe ,if you build malmortius ure absolutely unkillable by an ap champ , and he is one of the strongest 1v1 champ and other ad assassins champs such as talon are far less strong than he is in lane . Zed has waveclear , lane pressure , big burst without R , R is like to secure a kill while also beeing safe and free escape if needed ... Even is teamfighting is ok due to his AOE dmges ... there is no real moment where he is really weak exept before level 3 tbh ... he used to be kind off a skillchamp with counterplay , right now you're against a Zed , if he is decent and you are not Faker dodging every Q ull die , if he R E auto its enough to burst a squishy tbh ... ridiculous champion , you should spam him tbh .
Zed was hardly busted in the last four months man. Assassins have been super meager, which is apparent by how strong ADCs have been.
assassins class overall wasnt that good , zed actually was decent , his kit makes that he can adapt to almost any situation , he can be full assassin one shot mode , he can be a split push strong 1v1 threat just by building things like , he can even be a decent teamfighter , or just waveclear peacefuly in one combo when he is behind . And AD items variety adds to his versatility . He might not have been the strongest champ in the last months but was still great in solo Q , and new season will probably just make him busted , tho he isnt the only champ in this situation and since every champ is dealing too much dmges , ppl forget about him so once again as i said , another reason for his bann rate drop , right now if you are decent on him , i recommend you to spam it for a while , not banned that much , really busted , can be good pretty much everytime and in a meta were one shots are evrywhere , having an ult like zed's ult and a such mobility makes it a great pick .
It's really duskblade in general. Kha is insane with that item, shaco is insane with that item, graves is basically 2 shotting people again with it :D.
Though assassins / duskblade scale poorly into the late game because bruisers and AP carries start destroying assassins at that point.
yup , you're kinda right , but zed can abuse it even more since he in fact he can do lots of things already such as waveclearing , things that kha or shaco cant do , also kha mobility is all about his E , but if he doesnt get a kill he wont reset and be in a bad position even if he can go stealth , shaco is pretty safe but his dmges his all about that first auto into E + tiamat ( or hydra ) , and if it isnt enough , yeah he can escape but he wont do much more than this in the end he survives ... yeah its cool ? but not that useful . Zed can go in , he has really low cd so he can pretty much go in with ult do some burst on a guy , miss shurikens so he tp back to safety with his R not taking any dmges , and he can Q again before R exploses , that is you are free to do some mistakes as zed and it might not just not be punished , but even beeing punishing for your ennemy ! His split push is really strong and he can 1v1 most of bruisers to be honest ... the thing is he can adapt his build into every situation since the only item he needs to have most of his burst is duskblade ! and since once again there is a lot of options in ad itemization its a champ that will never be useless , unlike a shaco or a kha , that ususaly whenever they're behind , wont do a whole lot .
and you can have a fcking Mini Zhonyas either from mastery or 600 gold
Zed can have this shield whenever he gets low life, meanwhile this "mini zhonyas" trash only works once.
it also is on cooldown until just before lv6
Why would you need Zhonyas before lvl 6 against Zed?
For that time they could kill you via a good all in or a gank. People die before level 6 as well.
Yeah getting all-in'd by Zed pre6 requires you to missplay quite a bit. Zhonyas is amazing against Zed's ultimate and you are seriously downplaying the effect of having the Zhonyas effect for free at lvl 6. I mean how entitled can you get? "oh no, I don't have 600 gold in items for free at lvl 1, Riot clearly hates mages".
I have also seen Zhonya's not do anything. Yeah it's killer against Zed but when you are just a sitting duck for 2.5 seconds it's kind of easy to set up to kill that person. I understand that Zhonya's is good but compared to Hexdrinker or Nullying Orb, Hourglass is just lackluster nowadays.
I am not saying hourglass is bad but please, you need to understand this just isn't as godly as you think it is.
Oh please, Zhonyas allows complete catch setups to get punished just because they are untouchable for 2.5 seconds while if a team puts their mind to killing an AD champion with Hex they are just completely donezo. You are too much thinking about the 1v1 aspect in which Hex may do better while Zhonyas only helps surviving but in terms of overall utility Zhonyas is just superior without a doubt.
Also, imagine a Zed vs Orianna matchup: how much impact would it have if Ori had less kill potential on Zed for some reasons (eg Zed buy Hexdrinker) - the answer is: practically none. Who cares, Zed isn't useful anyways. He can't setup or follow-up teamfights, protect his mates, clear waves (ah well, unless he intends to become a minion by using all his skills). But imagine Orianna manages to decrease Zed's kill pressure - that is HUGE. That means that Orianna is able to provide her team with more pressure by pushing the lane, helping her teammates, push waves, zone more efficiently and get better Ults off.
Zhonyas is absolutely essential for mages in certain matchups while Hexdrinker isn't so I am always kinda annoyed when people bring that comparison up. It makes up for the weakness that most mages have: being vulnerable to being killed. I guess the equivalent would be something like 100% tenacity for AD champions as that would allow them to finish their mission of killing enemy champions but there is no way that Riot will ever create such an item. Nowadays midlane is balanced around Zhonyas and getting Zhonyas as early as Zed's ult is HUGE, period.
You are too much thinking about the 1v1 aspect
Mid lane is a 1v1 lane which involves both players fighting in a 1v1 fight with them trying to out play each other.
So yeah, in a 1v1, Hexdrinker is massive where zhonya's has you as a sitting duck. Kind of the whole point of this thread where the laning phase kind of matters.
Saying Zed isn't useful is just blind. Zed has numerous uses and his power is there. It's not on the scale of Orianna but Orianna has some of the most powerful inbuilt strength among mid laners since her ultimate could do 0 damage and it would STILL be powerful. Yes, the kill pressure is lowered but it is barely noticeable when you compare the two. Zed still is packing a lot of it and Ori is showing a lot less.
I am not saying Zhonya's isn't still great but it has for sure become less useful over the past couple of years. It's nice but 2.5 seconds is normally a double edge sword.
Also no. Mid lane is not even close to being balanced around Zhonyas. I have never seen anyone ever say that and the thought alone is just completely ridiculous. You are blowing up over Stopwatch way to much. A one time item that doesn't give you any power in a 1v1 just isn't that big. Hell, people will know you packed it so it's not even the element of surprise. I don't see it being the massive game changer you are thinking it is.
Mid lane is a 1v1 lane which involves both players fighting in a 1v1 fight with them trying to out play each other.
And here you already missed my point: most mages are perfectly fine with just farming. And that is the difference. Zed NEEDS to get an advantage, mages do not. Mages do not want to fight 1v1, mages want to clear the waves without being bothered to later group up for objectives.
Saying Zed isn't useful is just blind. Zed has numerous uses and his power is there. It's not on the scale of Orianna but Orianna has some of the most powerful inbuilt strength among mid laners since her ultimate could do 0 damage and it would STILL be powerful. Yes, the kill pressure is lowered but it is barely noticeable when you compare the two. Zed still is packing a lot of it and Ori is showing a lot less.
Well Zed is of course not completley useless, but he is simply much less useful than midlaners.
Also no. Mid lane is not even close to being balanced around Zhonyas. I have never seen anyone ever say that and the thought alone is just completely ridiculous. You are blowing up over Stopwatch way to much. A one time item that doesn't give you any power in a 1v1 just isn't that big. Hell, people will know you packed it so it's not even the element of surprise. I don't see it being the massive game changer you are thinking it is.
Let's say we remove Zhonyas. Do you think Zed and the like would get nerfed? If your answer is yes then you agree that midlane is balanced around Zhonyas.
And here you already missed my point: most mages are perfectly fine with just farming. And that is the difference. Zed NEEDS to get an advantage, mages do not. Mages do not want to fight 1v1, mages want to clear the waves without being bothered to later group up for objectives.
So that leads to them often having to fight the Zed 1v1. If he wants something and has the tools to force it, you are likely to fight and trade with him at least a couple of times. Once that stop watch is gone, that Zed now has all the pressure he had previously while you still are shit out of luck as he still has his Nullying Orb.
Well Zed is of course not completley useless, but he is simply much less useful than midlaners.
This is subjective and varying depending wildly on the champions and minute to minute gameplay.
Let's say we remove Zhonyas. Do you think Zed and the like would get nerfed? If your answer is yes then you agree that midlane is balanced around Zhonyas.
Expect it's not at all. People still die when they buy a Zhonya's all the time. The game is very different and frankly an hour glass rush is just not nearly as good as it was a couple years ago. Mana is the balancing tool for mid right now. Skipping a mana item on an AP mid is basically committing suicide. Only a couple can cheat it but even than, the gain from zhonya's makes it a lackluster rush. You are only getting it for the active and the active is rather weak 1v1. Yeah, it helps a lot teamfighting but than, the Zed won't waste his time focusing you anymore. He shouldn't. So Hourglass only really helps you sort of for the lane and becomes so-so later because you aren't that guy's focus any longer.
they don't hate mage, but they clearly favor ad (or else the orb shield whould be adaptative like camille passive and all other masteries :p)
Zhonya suck, we build it because we have no other defensive option against AD.
[{quoted}](name=Ahri Inari,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TE1b48Qv,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2017-11-10T21:57:01.645+0000)
Zhonya suck, we build it because we have no other defensive option against AD.
This is a load of bullshit
This is a load of bullshit
Not my fault your enemy don't know how to abuse it. It give poor stat/cost, the AD assasin will just target your adc while you do no damage or lack of mana if you built it first.
Except he also lost early lethality and AD, while you gained penetration on items.
Don't look at it in a vacuum.
and he got buffed lethality lul
he gets lethality after swapping places with his w from sudden impact. Or he can do a bit of true damage after slowing someone with his e from cheap shot.
All 3 of my games today have been against zed. I have played talon for 2, he was banned in the 3rd. This isn't some coincidence The game where I had 22 armor I played fizz
Zed start the game with 32 MR and is melee
~Balance