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PSA; Some champions remain weak/UP because they're inherently toxic in their design

Malicious Metal··121 votes·6,955 views

So, after following a friend of mine's ascent to gold using Mordekaiser, me coaching him in the process, I've come to see how utterly disheartening it can be to play against Mordekaiser just because his kit just feels so oppressive when he's ahead or his enemies have no clue how to deal with him. Given, I've seen it happen less the higher I climbed and in Diamond nobody would even dare to call Morde OP or anything as I've witnessed in lower divisions.

It made me think though. In his current state Mordekaiser's one of the most feast or famine champions there is due to his durability scaling with damage dealt and this combination making for a very uncomfortable situation for his opponents.

But he's not the only one. A lot of people bring up Aatrox, saying he needs to be buffed and that he's just way too weak and just left in the dust just like Urgot.

You know what those two have in common?

They're total hell to play against when they're anywhere near decent. Aatrox, if ahead, can become one of the nastiest drain tanks there is and you're practically forced to just focus him down and ignite him to even hope to kill him.

Urgot on the other hand can just E->Q spam you and shred your armor to bits while also having damage reduction in his kit and other tools to make your life hell.

Old Yorick suffered from the same problems. He was a bully that you could not win against, and if he got ahead he became unstoppable.

A lot of champions that riot seemingly forgot about are being held back simply because they're anti-fun and have unhealthy aspects in their kit that can't be allowed to be good.

These champions NEED reworks in order to be allowed to be strong picks and have a sustainable kit that's up to date with the current design philosophy.

So next time you feel Aatrox or Morde should be buffed just stop for a moment and think about what It'd be like to play against them. Not very pleasant of a thought, huh?

Sorry, I just had to get this off my chest. Some champions are sadly doomed to this state simply because they're from League's earlier days when Riot didn't really care about unhealthy kits and such but just wanted to deliver on unique champions, and a ton of them.

195 Comments

Ralanr22 votes

This reminds me of old Poppy. Glad they reworked her because that kit was toxic.

EndlessSorcerer37 votes

Poppy I'm just going to ult the weakest of you, become immune to everyone else and go kill your backline. Have fun with that.

Ralanr3 votes

Was on the receiving end of it once. Nothing quite like actually experiencing why she was in such a pitiful state.

I'm glad it's never coming back.

Looknook7 votes

I remember playing one game against old poppy where she just ulted our adc and killed her while I just had to watch cause Nautilus's cc couldn't do anything during her ult.

Also remember getting yelled at for not peeling for her. I would if I could, I would if I could.

Keti13 votes

Ah, full ap + Lich bane nuclear missile poppy. Those were the days.

Wind Whistler1 votes

{quoted}

Poppy I'm just going to ult the weakest of you, become immune to everyone else and go kill your backline. Have fun with that.

That's not how Poppy's ult works anymore. Where have you been?

EndlessSorcerer13 votes

In a place where people are able to recognize when others are talking about pre-rework Poppy.

It's rather modern.

Wind Whistler1 votes

{quoted}

In a place where people are able to recognize when others are talking about pre-rework Poppy.

It's rather modern.

Poppy? Reworked? A rework is when a champion's kit is changed. Not when a champion's kit is completely scrapped, their visuals scrapped, their VO scrapped, their character scrapped, and their lore scrapped. Poppy was REMOVED.

And if you were talking about the old Poppy, why did you put the new one's icon in?

EndlessSorcerer7 votes

And if you were talking about the old Poppy, why did you put the new one's icon in?

Since I was too lazy to bother finding her old portrait and thought the topic of discussion was fairly obvious since I mention :

  • DFG (which was removed far before her rework)
  • An AP build (which is no longer viable after her rework)
  • Her previous ultimate rendering her immune to all but one player
Deneviel18 votes

There are already 300 post regarding that ...

Morde was a nightmare in S1 Aatrox got nerfed primaly cause of his draintank ability Urgot got his share of nerfs too in the past

Same where Vlad before the rework or Olaf or Eve

HateDaddy14 votes

Honestly this is true and there are champions like pantheon as an example, I don't understand why he's allowed to even be half decent. His gameplay interaction is amongst one of the most frustrating in the game. It has nothing to do with his scaling or how he gets worse as the game progresses. You're basically left with almost no viable choices in fighting pantheon in lane, eat spears and die if you try to fight him. If you have a jungler with a brain, you win. If you don't, you lose.

Ralanr5 votes

...because of his scaling. That's why.

I get that he's a pain to fight in lane, and believe me I think he needs a rework (actually posted an idea a while ago) but he's not anywhere near say old Mordekaiser bad.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

...because of his scaling. That's why.

I get that he's a pain to fight in lane, and believe me I think he needs a rework (actually posted an idea a while ago) but he's not anywhere near say old Mordekaiser bad.

He's worse than old morde lol. Old morde was prone to being all-in'd, especially by bruisers. Pantheon shits on almost every melee champion in the game. His scaling doesn't justify how oppressive his lane phase, not to mention HOW EASY it is to play him.

Malicious Metal2 votes

Morde shits on Pantheon though^^

It's all a matter of who to pick into Pantheon but I agree, his Q spam is obnoxious. Even funnier to watch him get frustrated when you block every single Q with a well timed E and deny him any poke and watch him go oom faster than old Yorick

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nUoHYk0i,comment-id=000e000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-16T18:46:58.825+0000)

Morde shits on Pantheon though^^

It's all a matter of who to pick into Pantheon but I agree, his Q spam is obnoxious. Even funnier to watch him get frustrated when you block every single Q with a well timed E and deny him any poke and watch him go oom faster than old Yorick

His block is actually really annoying too because it doesn't fall off, there's no gameplay to that as well. It's like old TF gold card, except worse.

Malicious Metal4 votes

Well, he can also refresh it with his W

Though this might just be a very biased conversation we're having.

Pantheon really bullies Nasus, Morde bullies Pantheon, both sides of a coin.

Though his block eating empowered AA's can feel so frigging frustrating.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nUoHYk0i,comment-id=000e00000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-16T19:18:25.491+0000)

Well, he can also refresh it with his W

Though this might just be a very biased conversation we're having.

Pantheon really bullies Nasus, Morde bullies Pantheon, both sides of a coin.

Though his block eating empowered AA's can feel so frigging frustrating.

It's not just Nasus. Most fighters rely on weaving in AAs in their attacks if they don't have a built in reset timer. Pantheon will block at least two AAs in a trade, and easily 3-4 in an extended trade. That's a big fucking deal for fighters and even assassins. That's a lot of damage lost.

Wind Whistler1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nUoHYk0i,comment-id=000e000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-16T18:46:58.825+0000)

Morde shits on Pantheon though^^

It's all a matter of who to pick into Pantheon but I agree, his Q spam is obnoxious. Even funnier to watch him get frustrated when you block every single Q with a well timed E and deny him any poke and watch him go oom faster than old Yorick

You even said it yourself. Old Yorick ran out of mana really fast. How can he be a lane bully if he has no mana?

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

You even said it yourself. Old Yorick ran out of mana really fast. How can he be a lane bully if he has no mana?

Old Yorick ran out of mana until he got a tear, then mana wasn't a problem anymore. Corrupting potion allows pantheons mana bar to outlast your health bar.

Running cloth 5 used to be how you'd deal with pantheon in lane because even with old flask, he'd still have to buy a fuck ton of mana potions to keep up his harass (and flask didn't do damage either). All these little things added up and it made pantheon especially more obnoxious and more difficult to deal with in lane this season.

Wind Whistler1 votes

{quoted}

Old Yorick ran out of mana until he got a tear, then mana wasn't a problem anymore. Corrupting potion allows pantheons mana bar to outlast your health bar.

Running cloth 5 used to be how you'd deal with pantheon in lane because even with old flask, he'd still have to buy a fuck ton of mana potions to keep up his harass (and flask didn't do damage either). All these little things added up and it made pantheon especially more obnoxious and more difficult to deal with in lane this season.

But the problem with Yorick is that if you built tear, you'd miss out on the extra damage or tankiness a longsword/cloth armor would give you, which kept him from having ridiculously good trades. Honestly, I found Yorick to be FAR more effective late game.

As for Pantheon, a long sword and 3 mana potions worked out for me a LOT better than a crystalline flask did for me. You said it yourself. Flask didn't do any damage. Not only that, but it didn't give much mana, either. It was more effective to buy a longsword and 3 mana potions than it was to buy flask.

GawnMower1 votes

hehe i feel like i was the only one who went item 3042 pantheon in lanes where i needed the constant poke, a good 2 years ago mind, he used to be my try hard champion, if i ever went on a loose streak id just pick pantheon and collect my win that way. But this is when i would pretty much walk into lane and kill my opponent, back when only real tanks took tp everyone else took ignite. becuase if i knew i could dominate on mostly my base damage, i liked the extra mana sustain to reliably do it over and over

Wind Whistler1 votes

{quoted}

hehe i feel like i was the only one who went item 3042 pantheon in lanes where i needed the constant poke, a good 2 years ago mind, he used to be my try hard champion, if i ever went on a loose streak id just pick pantheon and collect my win that way. But this is when i would pretty much walk into lane and kill my opponent, back when only real tanks took tp everyone else took ignite. becuase if i knew i could dominate on mostly my base damage, i liked the extra mana sustain to reliably do it over and over

Yeah, Murumana seems like it would work on him. I've never tried it, though, unlike you : (

Maybe I should play Pantheon again and try it?

GawnMower1 votes

In league i always follow the dont bash until you try rule.

I got my first Pantheon Penta with Masamune as one of my items.

Pantheon can pull of an early cheese kill on most champions, however he can then struggle to kill some champions as they start to get tanky.

If i got an early cheese I would buy a tear, becuase, well at least when i was playing pantheon, both as him and against him. a big issue was balancing pantheon's Mana against the opponents HP. With tear it gives you a much bigger window, and against sustain tanks, helps you whittle them down.

Does this work better than just building damage? in all honestly i dont know. I did it, it helped me. Have talked to Pantheon mains, they said that tear is a bad item because it delays your spike, pantheon is an early-mid game champ, late game he starts to fall off. But many people have that say this have never actually tried it.

See if you like it :)

Ralanr2 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/657/039/7fa.jpg

I was going to argue, but I admit that I'm lacking in knowledge of certain things.

Instead, may I get your opinion on a possible rework for pantheon?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dznyMHgQ-if-you-were-to-rework-your-main-how-would-you-do-it

Talk about his potential E is mixed with responses.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/657/039/7fa.jpg

I was going to argue, but I admit that I'm lacking in knowledge of certain things.

Instead, may I get your opinion on a possible rework for pantheon?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dznyMHgQ-if-you-were-to-rework-your-main-how-would-you-do-it

Talk about his potential E is mixed with responses.

That's actually an interesting rework. I'd remove his passive and give his E the active block somehow and give him a new passive entirely, something that rewards Jim for being in the thick of things.

Matezoide9 votes

Hopefully Riot will not listen to the Kalista circlejerk and keep her next to Aatrox/Urgot.

Annoxis6 votes

Furthermore, Mordekaiser boast a winrate of 52% in the top lane now, according to champion.gg. That is already really high for the state he has been left for.

Malicious Metal56 votes

That's because the only people playing him are dedicated mains and OTP's

doubleguac4 votes

He actually showed up recently on some LoL analyst's "tier list" for low ELO. He was listed as a top tier top laner for bronze/silver/gold. I forget who so this isn't very helpful. But it was on the front page of the League sub, so a lot of people were looking at it and upvoting it.

I think a lot of people are starting to notice that he's very strong and snowbally in lane. And while I'm sure mastering him requires a huge amount of practice (he is such a unique champion), his kit is pretty straightforward and not very difficult to pick up and start learning.

I doubt he'll become pick/ban in low/mid ELO. But I wouldn't be surprised if he became a relatively common "pocket pick." Something like Darius... you don't see him every game but he definitely gets play, and people understand that he is quite strong.

Nagoh Shan5 votes

I think statcheckers are important, as long as the execution is done well. ADC's are an example of statceckers that tend to be seen as healthy. Melee carries feel oppressive though, because if they're reasonably kitable, they're Olaf. If they're not, they feel oppressive as the only way to win is to fight them and be stronger.

Aatrox is a weird case. I've only played him a few times, but it seems his passive is either the most frustratingly useless thing ever, or the biggest snowball passive ever. Also, there's not enough of a difference when he succeeds in a fight or fails in one.

As for being a Drain tank, well, at full build ADC's get to be drain tanks with burst mage levels of sustained damage. It's all in the execution.

Jaygo415 votes

This is exactly what i tell people when they ask for Kalista buffs. Her kit is an absolute disgrace

DunkinNoobs4 votes

I will admit Aatrox's kit was problematic back when he was released. But Riot has clearly upped the ante on what is an acceptable champion kit in the past few years. Is anyone really willing to argue that Aatrox as a champion concept it unhealthy but Graves is fine? Seriously? Just buff him Riot; see what happens. Then we can talk more about how toxic his kit may or may not be.

Kingnewgameplus4 votes

You forgot to mention the queen of this, old poppy.

Mylon Requiem3 votes

How about a champion that can still one-shot you after being down 40+ CS all of laning phase the moment she gets Level 6 and 1 item (item 3146) : Akali with absolutely zero counterplay if you're a champion with a low health pool and any reliance on skillshots/landing combos, or with very few escape options?

Everything about Akali, from the 1 level powerspike (that no champion in the game can rival) to the point-and-click nature of her abilities is about as toxic as it gets for champion designs. No other champion that can just lay down damage by clicking on one target has the mobility, burst/raw damage, outplay potential, and oppressive snowball potential as Akali.

serpensortia15 votes

And riot's stated she needs work. She was going to be in the Assassin Rework, but they decided she needs a full gameplay update.

Ben Sharpio2 votes

Everytime i call morde's kit toxic i get downvoted by you mordekasier enthusiast radicalists.

Malicious Metal4 votes

It's not about the content of your post but more about the way you deliver it :P

Morde has problems, yes. You make it sound as if he's worse than stuff like Ekko running rampant.

The Candy Pirate1 votes

Why is ekko not nerfed then ?

Count Zubat7 votes

Seems like he's one Riot's special snowflake that won't be nerfed too much because he gives income in skins, can do LC$ big plays etc.

President Swa1n1 votes

Coming from an ekko main, I do believe tank ekko should be killed off without changing ap ekko much in the process, bc ATM, ap ekko is fine

Atanchan1 votes

I'm pretty sure the issue is that they can't kill tank Ekko without also killing AP Ekko.

President Swa1n1 votes

Well perhaps they could remove the slow on his passive while keeping the speed boost. The most recent change, reducing the amount healed from his ult has already done a fair bit of damage to Tankko imo

WoonStruck1 votes

They could remove a lot from his kit and he'd still be viable. He doesn't need at least one thing that's included in each of his abilities.

P: Massive MS buff, Slow, and a damage proc.

Q: persistent zoning tool, two slows, stacks passive.

W: persistent zoning tool, shield, slow, stun.

E: Dash, blink, applies on-hits.

R: Get-out-of-Jail-Free card, 'teleport', re-engage, heal, and nuke.

You could take one or two of the potential uses of each ability and modify said ability slightly and he'd still be stronger than the majority of the roster. AP Ekko gets hit harder by most of the changes than Tank ekko, with a few exceptions.

Ekko being over-loaded or not, the real issue is Fervor. The keystone needs to be deleted. Its done nothing but cause huge game balance issues. Honestly, all damage keystones should be removed.

President Swa1n1 votes

IMPO,only the passive slow and perhaps the w slow should be removed. Everything else either fits well with his assassin theme or has restrictions/difficulties in usage.

BTW, have you seen a tank Ekko on 6.18 yet? I haven't, but I want to know if the nerf hit him hard or not

EDIT: I believe removing ANY masteries would be a little extreme.

WoonStruck1 votes

Should be removed, yes. Still stands that he could lose a lot and be better than the majority of the roster, though. Many don't come close to keeping up with newer champs. The only thing they offer is poke, at most.

Tank Ekko was only decent after grasp+sunfire/IBG because of Fervor and TriForce.

Trinity Force has a lot of attack speed, MS, and his passive makes getting away from repeated fervor procs very difficult.

Sheen procs are nice, but they aren't what makes current tank ekko strong. Its pretty much just Fervor. Removing 4 base AD only reduces his damage by ~124 in a 10 second engagement, assuming he gets 7 sheen procs off in that period, and attacks 10 times (1.00 attack speed).

Over a 10 second period, losing only 124 damage can barely even be considered a love tap. Its basically nothing, especially when you compare it to the gutting Vlad got.

The reduced base damage and increased scaling he got way back when, due to jungle ekko, only improved tank ekko's laning, as you can get a lot of damage and sustain off of the minimal investment of item 1056 item 1082 item 2033. That will last you pretty much the entire game, since all you need is TF and Fervor to do anything anyway.

President Swa1n1 votes

I really don't think he's as OP as you seem to be making him out to be. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 5 is balanced, I'd say Ekko is a 6.5 or 7. I don't believe he needs much more changed after the last nerf. Furthermore, the Fervor and Triforce combo was an innovation developed after a round of nerfs to him. Previously, he went IBG and Sunfire with Grasp of the Undying. IMO, that build back then was better than the current one. Thus, I don't think Fervor is TOO big of an issue on him.

Personally, I also believe AP Ekko is better than Tank Ekko right now, but that's certainly debatable.

EDIT: Just checked and while I know win rate does not directly dictate how strong a champion is, Ekko Top's current win rate is only 47%, which I believe is quite low

WoonStruck1 votes

What makes top Ekko strong is trading+safe farming with the three items I mentioned, and it gets much better with sheen+phage.

Utilizing his E, Q, and passive, Ekko completely dictates a lane if played properly, as he has complete control over trading, as well as his ult as a get out of jail free card and a TP back to lane. Safe farming only adds to that.

Most players assume he's OP and can beat anyone, don't play it correctly, etc. Same deal with Vlad. People overstate how powerful they are by a huge margin because someone managed to feed them early in one game or another and they snowball relatively well while doing well in teamfights.

Ekko's early game is safe, but rather weak. His mid-late game is carried by TF+Fervor and all that utility.

No, Ekko is not super OP right now. You're right about that. But he's still a problem, and he's a problem because Fervor is a problem.

I'd even say he needs buffs after Fervor (hopefully) gets removed.

aspects11 votes

Fizz , naturally toxic

Neamean4 votes

Singed Naturally Toxic

aspects11 votes

Teemo Singed Twitch Cassiopeia --> toxic team

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