Can you put Zyra, Karma, and Brand in the same Mana Regen tier as all other Mages?

Illâoi Evê Siôn·Mar 18, 2017·6 votes·952 views

Zyra, Karma, and Brand have 2 more base Mana Regen than all other Mages.

Give them 6 Mana Regen at level 1 instead of 8. That way they would be in line with Xerath, Ziggs, Vel'Koz, Viktor, Veigar, Annie, Anivia, Ahri, Swain, Syndra, Twisted Fate, Karthus, Heimerdinger, Elise, Fiddlesticks, Cassiopeia, Diana, Nidalee, Orianna, Kassadin, LeBlanc, Lux, Malzahar, Azir, Aurelion Sol ... ... basically all other Mages.

For those interested, the other exceptions I found were Lissandra who has the least amount of Mana Regen in the game (because of her passive?)(0.33 and 0.4/level less), Taliyah has slightly more (1 and 0.05/level more), Ryze has more per level (0.2/level), and Morgana and Zilean start out with more (2.5 more at level 1).

7 Comments

ShirvallahMar 18, 20173 votes

Alright, I'm going to have to disagree here — especially with Zyra. All 3 that you mentioned are played primarily as support champions, and they have hefty mana costs as it is on all abilities — not just one or two. Not to mention, Zyra's Q got upped by 20 mana recently, AND her plants no longer auto-target champions, unless you auto attack them or hit them with an ability.

Any GOOD Zyra, Brand, or Karma player knows how to manage their mana. Not to mention, the cooldowns of these three champion's abilties are fairly high for support champions (except Karma Q — the CD is fairly normal — if not, maybe only a little higher than normal). There's a reason why these supports that spam abilities lose lane a lot of the time.

Therefore, these champions are easily punishable if the enemy playing one of the three champs isn't careful.

I would imagine Morgana is an exception in order to make up for high cooldowns on the abilities that are used the most (Q, E, R (W not so much)). Her Q's base damage makes the snare a bomb, her Q at max rank is a 3 second snare, her shield makes people immune to CC, and her ultimate grants true sight and can be activated on champions that are already stealthed. This all sounds awesome, but guess what? Her abilities have fairly high cooldowns as it is — ** as she's got unique enough abilities to where she absolutely needs those high cooldowns in order for there to be counterplay** — just like the three you mentioned, except she's more punishable. At least Brand, Zyra, and Karma can fight back with their abilities if they miss a CC. But what's Morgana going to do? CC immune them to death? Tickle them with rank 1 tormented soil?

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 18, 20171 votes

The three points I see are that these champions have high Mana Costs, higher than usual Cooldowns, and can be punished if they waste a spell. This simply isn't true. They all have lower than average or average Cooldowns. Brand is the only one with high Mana Costs and he has even less Mana Regen than Zyra and Karma. Zyra only has two abilities with Mana Costs, she gets her Plants for free, and Karma can upgrade all of her spells for free. Other than that, the Mana Costs that they do have are all either lower or the same as their competitors'. As such, their room for punishment is the same as for anyone else in the bot lane. But Enchanters aren't the greatest at punishing anyone, and Tanks are being poked back to their tower the rest of the time. All Mages have to do is hide for a few seconds (which their enemies have to do all the time) before they can go back to abusing the lane.

I ignored Morgana here because a) I'm not arguing for her Mana Regen to be nerfed and b) she's not a reliable lane bully.

ArkaleMar 19, 20172 votes

Malz has high mana costs and can be punished hard for wasting a spell not to mention his voidlings are melee and and have worse targeting than zyra, but since he has the potential mana regen on his e it's fine that he has normal mana regen.

Why does Zyra deserve the extra mana in comparison?