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A Fiora Rework from a Fencer's Perspective @Vesh

Hyrum Graff··108 votes·19,035 views

http://i.imgur.com/5Kc4U8A.png ######Footnotes are context for non-fencers

About me:

I fenced sabre for two years before switching to epee (the best weapon*), around four years ago.

######*the weapon you fence is always the best weapon. Unless it's foil or sabre.

The problems:

  1. Fiora doesn't feel like a fencer.
  2. Fiora has little counterplay.

For fencers:

I'm going to be approaching this as if Fiora is an epee*. Why?

  • Sabre and (to a lesser extent) foil are more about reflexes than strategy, compared to epee.
  • While I have some cool ideas for how you could implement right of way**, there would be a real clarity issue for people who don't understand right of way (ie, most people), if Fiora is magically stronger some of the time.
  • The structure that right of way provides doesn't really seem to fit in league's structure.
  • Epee is what I know best.

######*Fencers refer to ourselves as the weapon that we fence. ######**Right of way tl;dr: you can only score a touch if you're on the offensive.

Observations about fencing

  • A bout is won/lost when you reach 5 (or 15) touches.

    • (Optional) Perhaps a stacking mechanism (passive?) would be appropriate? (not adding this right now because I don't think it's necessary)

  • A lunge is your primary means of getting touches on your opponent If you hit, both fencers go back to their starting positions If you miss, you're vulnerable

  • A parry is primarily a reactive/reflex move. Often you riposte afterward. A riposte is like a lunge, but because you parried first, your positioning is such that it's usually easier to hit a riposte.

  • If your opponent is better than you at the above, and/or taller, a common response is trying to force infighting.

    • Your objective is basically to step inside your opponent's guard, too close to be hit with their weapon. >Important part: stay close to avoid damage

  • The high point of a bout is certainly when you get a touch with a fleche*. Particularly if it's the winning touch.

    • A fleche is an all-or-nothing gambit that requires you to be fully committed to the action.

######*Pronounced 'flesh,'

Proposed kit. Note: no numbers yet

#Passive: As is, just because I don't have any brilliant ideas for it right now. Feel free to contribute if you think of one!

#Q: Lunge

Fiora dashes along a line. Any enemy champions hit are knocked back a short distance, dealt physical damage, and slowed by 50%. This slow decays over 2 seconds. If fiora hits an enemy champion, she rebounds off them, landing 550 units away in the direction from which she came (quinn E). (Optional): can apply on-hit effects.

  • Fiora now has an escape! (hard to be a melee carry without a way to avoid damage)
  • She also has ranged harass (something to do besides go in all the time).
    • However, if she misses, she's in a bit of a bind: near the enemy with no escape and missing some of her damage.

#W: Parry/Riposte

Parry: Fiora blocks the next AA in a .5s (adjustable) window. If it blocks an attack, Fiora can cast Riposte. Riposte: Fiora dashes to an opponent, dealing damage to them (same as current Q, but without double cast)

  • Fiora gets more, and more visibly, out of a successful parry (feels better).
  • Easier to bait parry (counterplay). For example, you can start to AA but cancel before it finishes, denying fiora the ability to riposte.

#E: Burst of Speed

Fiora temporarily gains additional Attack Speed for 3 seconds. Each basic attack she lands during this time increases her Movement Speed for 2 seconds, stacking up to 2 times, and reduces Parry's cooldown.

#R: Fleche

Fiora dashes forward, past her target, dealing physical damage to them. The damage increases the lower the target's HP.

  • Great for dueling, but also provides some utility:
    • Can help you reach the backline in a teamfight (ult through the frontline)
    • If a jungler ganks you from behind, ult through them, then use lunge to rebound back towards tower.

On balance

I intend w and e to be weak enough at early ranks that melee champs top should be able to win trades/all-ins with fiora if she tries to harass with lunge and misses. Otherwise she'd just max w and e and go all in on every melee top all the time, which would suck.

Laning patterns

In bot lane, Fiora waits for the enemy adc to AA her, parries the attack, ripostes to them, does a couple AAs with burst of speed, then uses lunge to disengage.

In mid, her pattern is the same if her opponent is trying to harass with AAs. If not, it's the same as in Top. Fiora will likely struggle in mid, because she has no real response to casters, besides killing them.

In top, Fiora harasses with lunges from a distance until she's ready to go all-in with parry and burst of speed, saving lunge as a gapcloser if she needs to chase when they flee.

THERE WILL BE REVISIONS.

Things aren't perfect the first time around. I know this. Please, give me feedback.

Thoughts?

edit

The most helpful feedback for me: It's often way more helpful to hear what parts of a champion's fantasy a kit is/isn't satisfying, than to get kit suggestions. If the kit suggestions work, they're really cool and helpful, but if they don't work, they're useless. Whereas, I can keep iterating until I come up with something that satisfies the part of a fantasy that you don't feel like you're getting right now. So, I promise I will read every one of your kits, and I will try to respond to everything, but this thread is getting to a size where I can't guarantee that any more.

219 Comments

RiotRiot Scruffy21 votes

I really like your core goal statement about how to make her a better fencer/duelist. I think we will have a very similar approach when we get back into her update (soon tm).

The key to making a premiere skill duelist will come down to a really interactive 1v1 pattern. There need to be a bunch of moments in each duel where both fiora and her opponent feel like they "outplayed." In the end the skilled player comes out on top (this is the dream at least).

Hyrum Graff6 votes

One of my goals here was to make her a really strong 1v1 split pusher. Her pattern goes something like this:

  • Push to tower
  • Walk up to tower, start AAing
  • Block an aa with parrry
  • immediately lunge to damage them while getting out of tower range
  • riposte back to a minion
  • Keep hitting the tower, using burst of speed to lower parry's cd
  • repeat

Do you view Fiora more as a melee carry (in my mind, this means a champ with high dps who cares more about getting their dps out on the most convenient target while staying safe) or as an assassin?

Or, more generally, what do you (personally, not necessarily as a rioter) feel like Fiora's niche is, beyond 'duelist'?

RiotRiot Scruffy9 votes

I think melee carry or light figher would better express her dueling style than assassin. Giving the fight some time for ducking, weaving, slashing, parrying, etc would be better than a strike at a moment of opportunity to take out the priority target style (assassin).

Totalwanabe2 votes

how about a sustain system like her passive or whatever that keep growing the longer she fight a single champion. Like graves but without a maximum values but reset when another champion friendly or enemy show up in a certain range value.

that would be the embodiment of Dueling.

Nixtarma2 votes

I like this ideal. One thing I thought off off of this would be making her into an AD caster with no mana resource and short cooldowns. However, in order to maximize her effectiveness, the player would need to be able to react to the enemy she is duelling quickly and without mistakes.

RiotRiot Scruffy9 votes

You're right, I think being shifted towards AD caster is going to have to happen. There is a limited amount of skill expression that can come from an exclusively auto attack focused playstyle. There can be a mix of autos and spells, but some of the big moments will have to come from things like parries, lunges, and other sword strikes that she can control with precision.

Wertilq4 votes

How is this for a caster kit?

Passive: Stacking movespeed boost, for each ability that hits enemy champ for a short duration, letting you engage and disengage, but not maintain it easily, unless she uses ulti or maybe lategame. Will make her really good duelist, with high stickiness.

Q: Lunge: Short-range, short CD attack+dash, similar to Yasuo Q, needs no targeting. Moves you forward a bit, as a fencing lunge, but if you press it again, moves you back to original position, like LeBlanc W. This captures the essence of a fencing lunge, which gives you two options, either continue in, or go back to start positiong (depending on if you move forward foot back, or back foot foward).

W: Beat/Disarm: Short distance annoyance-move, stops enemies autoattack-wind up, if they autoattack you short duration afterwards, while within short range of you, you disarm them, making them unable to auto-attack for a second, similarly to how current parry for fiora works, just with different start-up so it's not randomly, and that you need to initiate it towards a certain enemy, and that they get harsh negative effect if they attack you during the duration.

E: Parry/Riposte: Turns you invulnerable, for like 0.5s, blocking projectiles, spells etc IF you intercept a basic attack/spell, it let you cast Riposte, which is a counter-attack on enemy.

R: Massively reduces cooldown of Q, lowers cooldown of W and E as well, turning her all crazy in terms of defense, offense and mobility temporary.

Not entirely happy, seems slightly frustrating kit, and the Q will be hard to get the feeling right of, especially in hectic moments, but I imagine you more or less doubleclick it if you want to move back, single-click if you want to stay, and that the timing-window to click again to move back is really really short, pretty much duration of movement. E I am not sure WHAT the counter-attack should be, maybe just AoE around her, or in cone towards mouse-pointer?

Tortferngatr6 votes

*skilled.

Unless it's Karthus, then he's totally free to be a killed player that comes out on top. :P

Legostrike16 votes

I appreciate the thought and stab (heh) at realism but as a guy who's been invested in Longsword dueling I've also checked out fencing, and fencing is NOTHING like a real life dual with the same swords.

Therin lays my main problem with this rework, it's based of the sport. I would LOVE it if it was based off of real life fencing techniques, perhaps even pulled from a manual by a master, but alas.

Jamnon3 votes

True. Your criticism is well expressed, but did you know the sport was grounded in combat situations involving sword-play with such implements as the foil/sabr?

I like his fresh view given as a fencer. I'd like to see YOU try out a similar critique as he provided! Copy/paste, change the parts, idk. Im deeply interested in whatever you can say concerning it. Sword play (even the Katana, et all) involve similar strategem.

Legostrike2 votes

I could do that pretty well if we were talking longswords but I only know what an Epee dual looks like, I don't know the various moves whatsoever.

You are correct though, with any sword the goal is not really to go for the kill but for the general hit.

Hyrum Graff3 votes

I like his fresh view given as a fencer. I'd like to see YOU try out a similar critique as he provided! Copy/paste, change the parts, idk.

Hey, no need to be accusatory. I appreciate it when people point out flaws in my posts, and his comment is really respectful.

Jamnon4 votes

Sorry bro wasnt trying to be accusatory. I am interested in your different persective. I do think it could help her.

My bad.

Hyrum Graff4 votes

Np, just trying to guide the flow of the conversation. :)

Hyrum Graff3 votes

As someone who's never really checked out Longsword dueling, want to tell me a little about what it's like? I'd love to incorporate some of that in v2, if there's a good place for it in her kit.

Legostrike2 votes

Just note that I'm not a master and I've only researched and seen Historical Martial Arts fights, not participated in one.

Longsword fighting is about the manipulation of the sword and the use of the handle's leverage to defend and instantly turn that defense into an offense. I linked a video to Jamnon of a dual (a couple of guys who studied some of the manuals) that shows that principle in action. Block a cut, use your leverage to strike. The biggest part of this is the cross-guard, it's much easier to swivel on your opponent's weapon when theirs is lodged on your cross-guard, for example, the best image I could find of this sword of thing by looking up one of the books I have: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41pGY3-cbVL._SL500_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-big,TopRight,35,-73_OU01_AA300_.jpg

his opponent cut, he parried high, turned his blade and thrust a his opponent's head.

As a novice that's the best I can explain it, but there are a couple youtubers out there who talk about medieval weaponry and their proper use. One of the most helpful videos I've found of many of the swordfighting moves is this (if you can get past the goofy outfits):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohmLaZHStmI

I'd highly advise looking into this more, as it's a very interesting style of fighting, though perhaps without armor, outclassed by the buckler and shortsword.

Dantilq8 votes

Another fencer here (epee master race represent), I feel you are too stuck in modern sport-fencing. I have also read and studied classic fencing, and not just the sportified fencing, and I feel part of your ideas is too sportified.

Fencing is about dueling. Traditionally duels of this archetype was made mainly with a sort of epee, but it was not fully like the modern flexible epee. The weapon of combat was rapier(heavier and longer than epee) and sabres. The foil was later created as a training weapon. Sabre was the longest time preserved as a weapon by the military, while the epee never was a combat weapon. It was a shorter weapon that you could carry at your hip without it touching the ground, to look cool wearing a weapon and it was mainly made for dueling. Epee was heavily connected to the folly of the aristocracy, and duels was banned partially because oftentimes they ended with BOTH duelists dying, and partially because duels was done too much over too stupid things, and too many people died.

Personally I hate the fleche(charge with stretched out arm and blade), which is a move that is much based around the rules of fencing, simply run really fast, to then reset and get back to a stand-off position. It and the coupe(use the weapon like a whip, to get around the guard) are moves that you probably will not be doing with a sharp weapon, on non-perfect ground. The fleche will at least not be used nearly as commonly as it is in sports-fencing.

That said, Fiora feels NOTHING like a fencer. Fencing is about timing, speed, precision, fast thinking, tactics and strategy. Fiora's gameplay captures SOME of that, but is not mechanical enough IMO, and her ulti feels nothing like fencing, her parry riposte doesn't feel like it open up into things, and her defensive skillset is too meager. She can also only go in, and not get out. She does not fullfill the FEELING of fencing at all, sports-fencing, duelist-fencing or combat-fencing. She feels more like league's version of juggernaut, with fencing name on her abilities.

What I would want to see on Fiora, is a more mechanical kit, that is heavily focused around a strong defensive play, based around parry/riposte with hard timing. I would want her to be highly positional, and that she can both get in and out, dancing around the edges of combat, being a true melee DPS. This is how I see Fiora. I remember seeing a prototype kit posted that accomplished much of that.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

Another fencer here (epee master race represent), I feel you are too stuck in modern sport-fencing. I have also read and studied classic fencing, and not just the sportified fencing, and I feel part of your ideas is too sportified.

Yeah, I based it very closely on my own experience.

Fencing is about dueling. Traditionally duels of this archetype was made mainly with a sort of epee, but it was not fully like the modern flexible epee. The weapon of combat was rapier(heavier and longer than epee) and sabres. The foil was later created as a training weapon. Sabre was the longest time preserved as a weapon by the military, while the epee never was a combat weapon. It was a shorter weapon that you could carry at your hip without it touching the ground, to look cool wearing a weapon and it was mainly made for dueling. Epee was heavily connected to the folly of the aristocracy, and duels was banned partially because oftentimes they ended with BOTH duelists dying, and partially because duels was done too much over too stupid things, and too many people died.

I also agree, while my kit makes Fiora good at splitpushing, it doesn't particularly make her feel like a duelist, which I think is a core part of her fantasy. I can definitely do that better.

Personally I hate the fleche(charge with stretched out arm and blade), which is a move that is much based around the rules of fencing, simply run really fast, to then reset and get back to a stand-off position. It and the coupe(use the weapon like a whip, to get around the guard) are moves that you probably will not be doing with a sharp weapon, on non-perfect ground. The fleche will at least not be used nearly as commonly as it is in sports-fencing.

Noted :)

What I would want to see on Fiora, is a more mechanical kit, that is heavily focused around a strong defensive play, based around parry/riposte with hard timing. I would want her to be highly positional, and that she can both get in and out, dancing around the edges of combat, being a true melee DPS. This is how I see Fiora. I remember seeing a prototype kit posted that accomplished much of that.

tbh, v2 probably won't be coming for a while because I'm going to be super busy irl for the next two weeks, but when I get around to it I'll likely do it with an AD caster paradigm to try to accomplish this.

PerishSoftly4 votes

I like it. Sounds more fency than the current set, though I know nothing about fencing

Avious4 votes

I like the idea of making her a real fencer, but the kit you are proposing is problematic. Since Fiora is a melee carry , a kit with so much mobility is bound to make a her a balance nightmare (Oh... Hi Yasuo!) and her ultimate apart from a huge mobility move seems pretty weak which creates even more balance holes. If I were to design a new kit for Fiora I would make one that supports both bursty-assassin Fiora (Abilities>AAs - Mid) and a sustained damage melee carry Fiora (AAs>Abilities - Top/Jungle).

The W you are proposing is a very interesting ability I have to say. However, having such a small window to activate it will feel weird at times especially for newbies. You could add a mechanic where she got a longer range dash and more damage when she activates it right on time. The other problem of the skill is that it has huge counterplay. So big she could feel useless. Specifically, her power vs ranged non autoattackers (aka mages) would be dramatically decreased since if the enemy plays well and avoids AAing her her mobility becomes 0 (bb mid Fiora).

I could propose another build, but I have no time atm. If you are interested just reply to this and I will do one as soon as I'm available. I may need your help with fence stuff since I have no idea :p

Hyrum Graff3 votes

I like the idea of making her a real fencer, but the kit you are proposing is problematic. Since Fiora is a melee carry , a kit with so much mobility is bound to make a her a balance nightmare (Oh... Hi Yasuo!) and her ultimate apart from a huge mobility move seems pretty weak which creates even more balance holes. If I were to design a new kit for Fiora I would make one that supports both bursty-assassin Fiora (Abilities>AAs - Mid) and a sustained damage melee carry Fiora (AAs>Abilities - Top/Jungle).

My tl;dr response:

  • All of her mobility has gates.
  • This is in part because you don't have numbers. Her ult is a strong execute.

I talk about mobility here.

The W you are proposing is a very interesting ability I have to say. However, having such a small window to activate it will feel weird at times especially for newbies. You could add a mechanic where she got a longer range dash and more damage when she activates it right on time.

The other problem of the skill is that it has huge counterplay. So big she could feel useless. Specifically, her power vs ranged non autoattackers (aka mages) would be dramatically decreased since if the enemy plays well and avoids AAing her her mobility becomes 0 (bb mid Fiora).

What if it could block targeted abilities? Would that be too OP?

I could propose another build, but I have no time atm. If you are interested just reply to this and I will do one as soon as I'm available. I may need your help with fence stuff since I have no idea :p

tl;dr kit suggestions are really hit-or-miss. I'd still be interested in seeing what you can come up with, though!

Longer: at the end of this comment.

Avious2 votes

To begin with, I believe that the only thing that makes her rework candidate is the untargetability combined with high burst damage on Blade Waltz. Removing the untargetability and making some changes to help her survive and make her more fun and demanding skill-wise is enough. On to the kit. No numbers and CDs since I will probably mess up.

Passive: I believe that her passive should be something tied to her fencer archetype which means I can't really help here. Also, afterquite some thinking I couldn't think of a satisfying one. Maybe that's the reason why her current passive is so dull after all...

Lunge (Q): Unchanged. Context: Pretty OK skill. Decent damage and counterplay thanks to its low range and high CD, especially early game.

Riposte/Sidestep (W): Fiora parries the next champion basic attack thrown at her and gains additional abilities depending on the range of it. Melee autoattack: Fiora counterattacks dealing 100% of her AD as physical damage. Ranged autoattack: Fiora gains the ability to cast Sidestep within the next 2 seconds.Sidestep: Fiora swiftly performs a small skillshot dash (thinking about 350-400 range). Context: This skill adds more variety to Fiora's capabilities and provides her with a situational escape as well as a boost vs heavy kiters. Increases damage output only vs melee champions highlighting her duelist nature.

Commitment [Bad name I know...] (E): Fiora gains X + (10% of her bonus AD) attack damage for 5 seconds. Each autoattack she lands while the effect is active adds a stack of commitment (stacks endlessly). After the effect wears off, Fiora gains flat armor penetration and movement speed. She keeps the buff for 3 seconds and as long as she attacks a champion. If she doesn't autoattack a champion for 1.5 seconds the effect wears off. Context: This skill is Fiora's primary damage enhancement. The bonus AD encourages full attack damage assassin builds (mid lane mostly) since it adds up to her burst alot. The movement speed and penetration bonus encourages her to build attack speed so that she gains as much stacks as possible. The sticking power and extra damage from armor penetration make her the perfect sustained damage dealer in longer lasting fights. That way she has more variety and more flexible builds depending on individual playstyle and role.

Blade Waltz (R): Dashes through enemy champions at high speed 5 times dealing damage and applying on hit effects (critical strikes deal 30% extra damage). Can hit the same champion multiple times dealing decreased damage (only one critical per champion). Duration varies depending on how many champions are around. Fora becomes CC immune and is dealt 50% less damage for the duration. Fiora will always land near the champion she targeted first. Context: I really wanted to keep the feeling of her current ultimate as it is very satisfying and beautiful while adding some counterplay. Fiora's speed should be quite high, but low enough for enemies to be able to target her if fast enough. I thought about having relatively low base and high scaling so that it works as part of her burst combo, but only works well as a gapcloser/CC avoidance if you focus on building attack speed or tanky items.

Overall, I tried to add variety to her kit, retain her current playstyle and eencourage many builds and roles. Her damage should be close to what she can deal on live, but she gets a liiittle bit on an extra mobility move and more counterplay on her ultimate. The crits on her ult works as a compensation buff and can be removed if unecessary. What do tou think?

Garlyle Wilds3 votes

To be honest, I feel like Mobility is part of my ideal mental picture of Fiora - but not necessarily in the "big sweeping lunge" sort of way - more small steps back and forth in tandem with her actions. Yasuo has frequent access to large mobility - but imagine a Fiora who might not have to stop to attack a target if she's moving in the same direction as them (this is pretty massive in terms of 'making melee ADC work'), or one who hops backwards a little if you parry while moving away.

This probably doesn't line up with what actual fencing looks like at all, but yeah.

Mathbalnase3 votes

Modern sport fencing bares little meaningful resemblance to the historical fencing that spawned it. Most obviously, the obsession with 'right of way' that you mention is utterly absurd from the perspective of an actual duelist concerned with maiming or killing their opponent while avoiding being maimed or killed.

L0reweaver2 votes

I'm assuming you don't fence. If you did you would know that foil fencing has always been a sport that taught people how to fence with lethal blades. "right of way" is how coaches taught students not to run on their opponents sword if they don't have control of the action. Modern fencing and kendo are the only two types of sword play that have a consistent historical record of coaching practices.

Mathbalnase3 votes

I do not participate in modern sport fencing, if that is what you are referring to.

Foils are not lethal blades. Modern foils are designed specifically with both the intent and knowledge that they are not lethal blades. As a result, the form and structure of the modern foil is inconsistent with the needs of a lethal blade. The weight, stiffness, balance, orientation of the blade relative to the hilt, and often even the form of the hilt itself are all vastly divergent from the needs of a lethal blade. The techniques used to wield modern foils, then, and even more so to wield foils according to the rules of modern sport fencing, are horrendously inapplicable to the needs of historical dueling with lethal blades.

A rules-enforced 'right of way' in modern sport fencing, particularly, is a clumsy attempt to simulate the naturally-emergent flow of action in an exchange of real blades.

The historical record of coaching practices of what has become modern sport fencing is consistent only in the sense that it has consistently drifted further from its roots in sword dueling as decades passed.

Historical texts instructing the use of real swords for the purpose of dueling remain. Modern schools of swordsmanship based on those texts also exist. I suggest, for the furtherance of your education in swordsmanship, that you pursue acquaintance with such a school.

L0reweaver2 votes

I do not participate in modern sport fencing, if that is what you are referring to.

Historical texts instructing the use of real swords for the purpose of dueling remain. Modern schools of swordsmanship based on those texts also exist. I suggest, for the furtherance of your education in swordsmanship, that you pursue acquaintance with such a school.

I'm sorry, are you implying here that you are a student of a school that teaches swordfighting with lethal blades? Because i call shenanigans. This response has all the halmarks of a SCA member or LARPer lost in a fantasy world. (Nothing against SCA or LARP, i have participated in both of these things and enjoyed them) You say that there are modern schools of swordsmanship based on those texts and you are correct... they teach them with foils... that's what my post said, was it not?

Mathbalnase1 votes

Try this site.
http://hemaalliance.com/ or even just this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_European_martial_arts#The_modern_HEMA_community

L0reweaver3 votes

Ah, so a HEMA member then. Sorry, wrong side of the pond. SCA is the American version. Do you participate in this or did you just google something on the interweb? Because the coaches of these martial arts are quite proud of the fact that they have "re-invented" the medieval style of swordplay from scraps and theory borrowed mostly from fencing and kendo... the two modern martial arts that have a continued historical practice since their development unlike broadsword and any other 'heavy armor' weapon which were completely abandoned as forms of martial arts after the invention of firearm until the modern sport. A modern sport, that i might add; even less similar to it's original counterpart as modern fencing to rapier dueling.

You do realize the sport of fencing dates back to the pharaohs of Egypt, yes? And that the basic tactical wheel used with right of way is literally as old as paper/rock/scissors?

Mathbalnase1 votes

Ah, so a HEMA member then. Sorry, wrong side of the pond. SCA is the American version. Do you participate in this or did you just google something on the interweb? Because the coaches of these martial arts are quite proud of the fact that they have "re-invented" the medieval style of swordplay from scraps and theory borrowed mostly from fencing and kendo... the two modern martial arts that have a continued historical practice since their development unlike broadsword and any other 'heavy armor' weapon which were completely abandoned as forms of martial arts after the invention of firearm until the modern sport. A modern sport, that i might add; even less similar to it's original counterpart as modern fencing to rapier dueling.

You do realize the sport of fencing dates back to the pharaohs of Egypt, yes? And that the basic tactical wheel used with right of way is literally as old as paper/rock/scissors?

HEMA works to reconstruct, not 'reinvent', historically-accurate swordsmanship based on fencing (dueling) sources, yes. But not modern fencing sources. Because modern sport fencing bears comparatively little resemblance to that found in historical sources. And that's my point right there.

Yes, modern sport fencing has a history of 'continuous practice' dating back centuries, but it's modern form is not that of an viable martial art, nor is it that of its origins. It is a sport. Thus the references to it as sport fencing. It does not use equipment of a form suited to lethal exchange. It does not follow rules suited to a lethal exchange. This is all fully intentional and fully appropriate to a recreational sport, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But if you're going to design a fictional character who's primary identity is that of a lethal fencer, you should not look to the practices of sport fencing for your inspiration.

Historical literary sources describing lethal fencing (dueling) practices have survived and are available for study. Modern groups who make a habit of studying these texts exist and are quite willing to share the products of their research, study, and practice based on those texts. These are the sources that would be most applicable to the creation of a fictional character based on the concept of lethal sword dueling.

L0reweaver2 votes

Look, all i'm saying is that if you were to tell me you participate in any kind of swordplay HEMA, SCA, sport fencing then i would at least understand where you were coming from. You seem to be basing your knowledge of the thing i have personally done for a good portion of my life with what you imagine a lethal dual would be like based on the video games you have played. I am honestly sorry if i have misjudged you. If you are interested in the history of thrust style swordplay from the court of Ramses III to it's modern form i would truly be happy to oblige. I'm not being sarcastic, let me be clear. I would further like to discuss the use of tactics in lol (somewhere above... below? stupid threads.) if you'd be interested, also.

Slushi Simcambi3 votes

Here is a kind of crazy idea for her passive, what if it made Fiora AND HER DUELING OPPONENT do Increased damage to one another while decreasing damage done from outside sources.

Think about it.

It solidifies her identity as a duelist and Solo fighter, forcing her and her "dueling partner" to solely Fight Mano el Mano.

Could be dumb, thoughts?

L0reweaver2 votes

So btw, so many fencers here; This -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z86tpjRaiK8

M0b1us2 votes

I was a A rated epeeist from 2007-2012, but I think you are trying to much to correlate Fiora with fencing.

I agree that she doesn't feel at all like a fencer. But there is nothing that would feel like fencing in a video game. Also, you have to remember that she isn't necessarily a fencer. Fiora seems to me more like that of a "3 musketeers" kind of champion. The preferred weapon would then be rapiers, not foils, epees or sabers. Now very few people actually know how to fence rapier now a days, but Fiora's style is much closer to rapier than any other kind.

Tis a nice day2 votes

I just really like how you gave her riposte something more.

ShadowNinetails2 votes

I'm a foil who's dabbled a bit into sabre (wanted to get better at sabre but the only guy willing to teach me was a lefty and, even though I could learn some of their dark arts, I didn't want my whole training to be backward). When I saw Fiora for the first time, my eyes lit up. I just knew I was gonna use her all day err'day and even get some of the guys from my fencing club to check the game out so they could try her.

Then I actually played her. Still loved her theme, but felt the fencing references were a bit hamfisted. These would be welcome changes both to reinforce her theme and to make her gameplay more fluid.

Cerbearus2 votes

Sounds cool in theory but THREE different dash moves AND a movement speed boost?

Yesimfrigginevil2 votes

My only proposed suggestion would involve playing on a fencer's natural stamina to retain a fight (as I've seen several bouts that appeared to be going on at inhuman speeds for longer than I could have held my own even if I was swinging a telephone pole) and the high point of securing a touch, while downplaying it with a weakness that also fits her core role as a duelist.

Passive: Duelist Each time Fiora strikes an enemy champion, she initiates a Duel, gaining increased damage and resistance against that player incrementing each time Fiora strikes the enemy champion or successfully parries a blow. Duel stacks are lost after several seconds out of combat, when striking another champion, or by failing to Parry (Meaning Parry is used but blocks nothing).

The intent here is multi-faceted and designed to balance out everything without just handing her raw power. (a) To replace Fiora's tired mana bar with something seen on a lot of top-tier top laners, a secondary form of resource bar, while (b) tying her into the Duel, meaning she can't flit from target to target if she wants the maximum potential damage, and (c)also giving counterplay (take a step back for half a second to remove her duel bar and then blow her up, bait her onto one target before revealing a better target (Get her to fight Lee Sin with Vayne waiting in the shadows), but rewarding her for successfully using her Parry but punishing her for failing with it (taken from the fact that if you fail to parry a blow, your opponent will score a touch).

This makes Parry a strategic move and will encourage quick thinking on the part of both Fiora and her opponent, while giving each a potential for outplay, while also unshackling Fiora from what made her such a niche pick against the likes of Renekton, Shyvana, et al, which was her brutal mana costs at early levels. It also encourages Fiora to choose wisely on her target, because ideally, Duel would give more defenses than offense, and in multi-target situations, Fiora might have to choose between taking on the ranged carry to get the extra damage to blow them up, or taking on the assassin head-on to avoid being vaporized by a trident to the kneecaps.

Pryotra2 votes

You might like my view on this from before Fiora. Not saying I designed her, but dat slip of the tongue. Whether or not they borrowed is irrelevent, I like jumping in on Fiora discussions.

Thing is, this would need to be a low cd ult, or possibly reset on kill ala old darius. I would wager this is physical damage sort of thing, but Imo it should have a low-ish cd with half refunded if it lands a killing blow. That way if played right she can have that "darting around the teamfight, being untouchable" feel, but only when played right.

As far as the passive, I think it should be some form of onhit, tbh. Every x hit's gives an auto crit or just a damage boost. her current passive is kinda bleh, tbh.

As far as the rest of the kit is concerned, I like everything but the Lunge. I think it should be like renektons dash, but instead of going through units it collides with them, knocking minions back about 50 units, and if you hit a champion both units are knocked 50 units in the opposite direction. If you hit a champion (or just unit), you get 1 additional lunge for a certain timeframe. Considering they will be skill shots, you very well could do that combo to escape still, but you could also still lunge into a fight and have that swordplay footwork feel to it.

Overall, I like this direction, and would recommend following it's general path towards a rework.

Mathbalnase2 votes

Ahistorical nonlethal recreational sport ritualized single-combat-simulation is a poor source of inspiration for historical lethal single-combat.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

historical lethal single-combat.

Is that was league is?

Mathbalnase1 votes

historical lethal single-combat.

Is that was league is?

No. It is supposedly the inspiration for Fiora's kit, though. She's a Duelist, not a Sport Fencer.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

The sport fencing derives from dueling, though.

Either way, gotta draw from what you know. I know the sport much better than the lethal kind.

Erockandroll2 votes

Not sure If this should apply. You didn't mention Feints when discussing Fencing style. It could be a mechanic to look at.

It would probably reduce the targets defenses in some way. (As a feint would throw them off guard)

some thing like

Feint - Fiora's next attack deals extra damage and marks the target. Fiora's gains bonus damage against marked targets for a few seconds.

just a thought

CataclysmCrash2 votes

Wasn't guinsoo supposed to be doing something about this?

Vyrixio2 votes

Yeah, I get this is an old discussion, but discovery and all that.

As a fencer, this is a really great rework. Nice job.

P.S. I'm pretty sure she's sabre. P.P.S. Screw epee, foil rules.

Terra Booma1 votes

Wait, there are different styles of fencing?

Anyone care to explain?

Nagoh Shan3 votes

Basically, like historical fencing there are different types of swords and the way to use them vary. I.E a Smallsword vs a Spadroon vs A Cutlass

In sport fencing there are three types of swords; Foil, Sabre, and Epee. Foil is the smallest sword, and legal targets are the torso only. Sabre is beefier in blade and hand protection, and allows for scoring anywhere above the torso, excluding the hands. Epee is a longer more substantial blade than the foil with a large, practical hand protection, as the hand is a target. In Epee any part of the body is a target for scoring, even the feet and hands.

Additionally in Epee there is no right of way, and simultaneous scores are allowed.

a cloth1 votes

Fencing is by far the most homosexual form of swordplay in all of history. We SHOULD NOT be moving fiora towards it, but further away.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

Homosexuals OP!

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